486 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

All things being equal, happy endings sell better than tragic endings.  In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.  That still doesn't give you leave to imply (strongly) that those who do like happy endings are somehow mentally inferior for having that preference.

That isn't what he's saying. Dreamgazer's lamenting the trotting out of cheesy happiness that people lap up to the point where they couldn't care less if there's any quality or not in anything else, and it's not an unreasonable view to have because there's plenty of rubbish out there that just feeds the easy-to-lap-up stuff for people care about nothing else (although as I said earlier I think that's a little cyncial). If there's any criticism about Dreamgazer's post I'd say that it looks to me like there's a chance of that atttitude backlashing against things where it's doesn't fit.

[crimzontearz]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Come now, iakus.  I'm sure you, of all people, know that statement was low on the condescension meter for this board.  In a collective of specific critics griping about "grimdark" and "faux-intellectalism" whenever someone mentioned even a shred of like for the ending (as well as a comment  from my buddy rekn2 up there about "understanding media"), that's small potatoes. 

The question was why Hollywood continues to dish them out for the people who eat them up, and it's because of the general audience's tolerance level for nonsense in happy situations than downer situations.  Downer endings, no matter the level of quality, are frequently referred to as "bad endings", as opposed to drivel in modern blockbusters given a pass because of the emotion it creates. It's repulsive to see this exascerbate in modern fiction, and likewise to be championed on this board (a few of ME's fans have suggested ending alternatives that emulate summer blockbusters with even bigger logic problems).  

If people took the same critical approach to endings like that of The Avengers that they have of Mass Effect 3's, they'd be disappointed.  But they don't, because  ... "F*CK YEAH!"

All things being equal, happy endings sell better than tragic endings.  In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.  That still doesn't give you leave to imply (strongly) that those who do like happy endings are somehow mentally inferior for having that preference.


I fail to see how this preference is any better or worse than ascribing some inherent virtue to tragic outcomes "It's deep because it's DARK"  It's human nature that people want to see the hero come throug hin the end.  Especially after a long, arduous journey.  Yes, there's a place for Achilles.  But for me, I prefer Odysseus.

(shrugs)

And you'll notice I haven't mentioned MEHEM, really, since I was merely responding to Xil's comment about "Hollywood endings". Whether you choose to apply it to MEHEM is on you. 

Actually, it's on you. This is a thread about MEHEM.  And why people hate it for some reason.  You start spouting off about Hollywood endings and "lowest common denominators", can you blame people for making that inference?

Odysseus is killed by his own son Telegonus

Theseus might be better, he does lose his father tho

[crimzontearz]

Reorte wrote...

iakus wrote...

All things being equal, happy endings sell better than tragic endings.  In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.  That still doesn't give you leave to imply (strongly) that those who do like happy endings are somehow mentally inferior for having that preference.

That isn't what he's saying. Dreamgazer's lamenting the trotting out of cheesy happiness that people lap up to the point where they couldn't care less if there's any quality or not in anything else, and it's not an unreasonable view to have because there's plenty of rubbish out there that just feeds the easy-to-lap-up stuff for people care about nothing else (although as I said earlier I think that's a little cyncial). If there's any criticism about Dreamgazer's post I'd say that it looks to me like there's a chance of that atttitude backlashing against things where it's doesn't fit.

I will take easy to lap up happiness over brilliant grimdarkness


 

 
TYVM

[dreamgazer]

Reorte wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The question was why Hollywood continues to dish them out for the people who eat them up, and it's because of the general audience's tolerance level for nonsense in happy situations than downer situations.  Downer endings, no matter the level of quality, are frequently referred to as "bad endings", as opposed to drivel in modern blockbusters given a pass because of the emotion it creates. It's repulsive to see this exascerbate in modern fiction, and likewise to be championed on this board (a few of ME's fans have suggested ending alternatives that emulate summer blockbusters with even bigger logic problems).  

People's first reactions and impressions are usual emotional, so it's hardly a surprise that the tolerance is greater.  Without getting the emotional response though people are going to look at the intellectual one, so it really has to stand up to scrutiny to work. It works the other way too. If something is cheerful drivel then (as long as it's not so much drivel you walk out before the end) there are plenty of people who won't be anywhere near as satisfied as they would be if it had real quality behind it too. People do want both, and I think that most would rather that Hollywood didn't keep trotting out light-weight fizz that feels nice at the time but ultimately leaves you wishing you'd spent that time on something else.

See, there's the problem: the lighter fizz you're talking about is being treated as more than that.

I'm not opposed to happy endings in general, at all. I'm opposed to things that lack sense and the people who draw the false dichotomy between tragic/bittersweet elements and "getting pissed on", then leaning on the universe's lack of exposition towards why things happened.  We've reached a point where "rocks fall, something dies" is acceptable when defeating the enemy, yet somehow not in situations like the refusal ending. 

In the absence of practicality, I'd prefer for the material to challenge its audience instead of stroking their ego. 

I find it repulsive to deliberately drag things down for no reason other than a dislike of things looking too happy, and certain areas of BSN seem to champion that attitude. They want downers for the sake of downers. I don't understand that at all - I like things that make me cheerful. Sometimes downers are needed simply to avoid everything becoming too predictable, and the beauty of a game is that it can encompass both in the same story, which isn't possible in any other medium, but there's nothing at all wrong with wanting happiness - otherwise you could complain about people being shallow because they prefer to get a kiss than a kick.

I see where you're coming from and don't exactly disagree, aside from "prefer to get a kiss than a kick" viewpoint on the versatile emotions of fiction. I don't consider that to be a fair analogy whatsoever.   

Tragedy for the sake of tragedy is, unfortunately, completely subjective, as well as whether said tragedy applies to the themes of the work.  I think the ending's choices and repercussions are more thematically resonant than many givem them credit for on this board, along with how the previous games' context informs those ideas. It's the implementation of its logic that's rickety. 

It's an interesting area of thought to be honest, how to strike all the right balances, how to give enough variety, and how to serve up those parts that make people unhappy and that they don't like but are arguably necessary to give a suitably broad view and be able to appreciate everything properly.

The expression "Bad ending" can refer to it from the point of view of how it works for the characters and doesn't necessarily apply to the writing.

I'm aware of the many meanings of the phrase "bad ending", but I also know the context that people provide as to why it's bad. 

iakus wrote...

(shrugs)

And you'll notice I haven't mentioned MEHEM, really, since I was merely responding to Xil's comment about "Hollywood endings". Whether you choose to apply it to MEHEM is on you. 

Actually, it's on you. This is a thread about MEHEM.  And why people hate it for some reason.  You start spouting off about Hollywood endings and "lowest common denominators", can you blame people for making that inference?

Sure, I can. The discussion moved to general exploration of Hollywood endings, the people who prefer them, and the symptoms the industry is continuing to show.  Guess I expected certain people to think bigger picture. 

If I were to "hate" on MEHEM for one reason or another, I'd skewer it for many, many other things than its emulation of a Hollywood ending. 

[dreamgazer]

Reorte wrote...

iakus wrote...

All things being equal, happy endings sell better than tragic endings.  In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet.  That still doesn't give you leave to imply (strongly) that those who do like happy endings are somehow mentally inferior for having that preference.

That isn't what he's saying. Dreamgazer's lamenting the trotting out of cheesy happiness that people lap up to the point where they couldn't care less if there's any quality or not in anything else, and it's not an unreasonable view to have because there's plenty of rubbish out there that just feeds the easy-to-lap-up stuff for people care about nothing else (although as I said earlier I think that's a little cyncial). If there's any criticism about Dreamgazer's post I'd say that it looks to me like there's a chance of that atttitude backlashing against things where it's doesn't fit.

It is a little cynical, but it's because of how easily people default to "I'd prefer happy than sad, all points equal".  That's incredibly unfortunate, because the more authors feel obliged to feed that need, the more we're going to see pieces of work that feel like products designed for said purpose.  

This does not mean I don't like happy endings!

Trust me, I've seen a LOT of crap, and ME3's structure and ending(s) aren't nearly as bad as this board would like for them to believe.  Flawed? Hell yes, especially when you even come close to approaching Synthesis (which is ultimately one option among three), but it could be much worse. 

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I've never seen the ending (I only have the game for Xbox and PS3) but if I liked it, I really wouldn't care what anyone else thought of it.

[Iakus]

crimzontearz wrote...
Odysseus is killed by his own son Telegonus

Theseus might be better, he does lose his father tho

Decades later.  And wasn't part of the  Odyssey.

[Pressedcat]

The funny thing is, I think I've seen more criticism directed towards the MEHEM in this one thread than I have over the past month of lurking around these boards.

At least part of the problem is the title 'I don't get the hate for MEHEM'. This presupposes there is a large amount of hate for the mod, that the poster is inviting others to explain why they don't like MEHEM, whilst implicitly labelling anyone raising personal problems with the mod as one of these so called 'haters'.

I don't think very many people have expressed a hate for MEHEM out of the blue; mostly criticisms are raised in response to others saying how much they hate the original endings/EC, and how much more they prefer MEHEM. Unfortunately, such issues are too often expressed on both sides in emotive terms such as 'betrayal' or 'disneyfication', or such delightful metaphors as 'polishing turds' or 'homemade ******'s' (although this latter one was used more for humorous effect). Thus the relative merits are rarely discussed, and it invariably turns into a s**t-slinging match between a couple of posters.

The problem is that, as Reorte said, people's first reactions to this form of entertainment medium tend to be emotional and entirely subjective, and thus difficult to discuss objectively. It's too easy to strongly criticise the ending you do not like whilst aggressively defending your preferred one like some kind of sacred cow.

Of course, if these boards were limited to reasonable, moderate discussion, they'd be dead by now.

Modifié par Pressedcat, 18 octobre 2013 - 05:34 .

[CronoDragoon]

Grim for the sake of grim is no better than happy for the sake of happy, correct. That's also not the operating dichotomy I would use, and I don't think it's what dreamgazer is using. The point is not to aim FOR ANY specific "tone" of ending except the one that follows from the rest of the story. That's why I cringe when I read Hudson saying they "wanted a bittersweet ending." That should not be the thought process behind fiction.

Similarly, I cringe when people applaud the ME3 ending for being different. Being "different" is a neutral concept and can make something really good or really crappy. Applauding something purely for being weird or artistic does not, in my opinion, improve the quality of fiction as a whole.

As for the topic of "tone" I think Mass Effect is an interesting animal. Mass Effect 3 is clearly a sad game requiring much sacrifice and little hope. In that sense the ending tone fits the rest of the "story." But it doesn't fit with ME1 really, and certainly not ME2. So when you have characters saying "it's not gonna end well" then the player can't help but remember the exact same thing being said in the Suicide Mission. While the scope of the two events is not the same, it's understandable for the player to expect a similar story structure to what came before.

Mass Effect 3 is at its best when considered a separate entity from what came before. This is especially true if you include no save imports, which precludes peace on Rannoch. (not that I think the peace option is stupid, but rather that I think no-peace more closely resembles the rest of the game)

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 octobre 2013 - 05:43 .

[crimzontearz]

iakus wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
Odysseus is killed by his own son Telegonus

Theseus might be better, he does lose his father tho

Decades later.  And wasn't part of the  Odyssey.

Still...killed by the illegitimate son you have with a witch? Yeah ...bad way to go.

[Reorte]

dreamgazer wrote...

See, there's the problem: the lighter fizz you're talking about is being treated as more than that.

I'm not opposed to happy endings in general, at all. I'm opposed to things that lack sense and the people who draw the false dichotomy between tragic/bittersweet elements and "getting pissed on", then leaning on the universe's lack of exposition towards why things happened.  We've reached a point where "rocks fall, something dies" is acceptable when defeating the enemy, yet somehow not in situations like the refusal ending.

No, it's just that, whilst neither of them are good, and least one of them has the merit of leaving you feeling good, whilst the other has no merit at all. The tragic parts are simply pissing on the audience when there's no particularly good rationale for them (as opposed to patting the audience on the head).

At the risk of over-simplifying we've got four outcomes:

1. Happy, makes sense.
2. Happy, doesn't make sense
3. Tragic, makes sense
4. Tragic, doesn't make sense

It's over-simplifying of course because they aren't discrete, there's a continuum between happy and tragic and makes sense and doesn't make sense. Be that as it may points 1 to 3 all have their up sides, but point 4 doesn't have any at all. 1 is the best, but getting it exclusively just makes everything tired, predictable, and boring, because no chance of outcome 3 utterly kills drama. 3 is the hardest to do well, which is possibly why it sometimes seems to get put on a pedestal. 2 is the fizz.

The lack of sense isn't simply due to lack of exposition on them, and a potentially good idea doesn't get let off the hook if it could be made to work in a completely different context but makes no sense in this one.

In the absence of practicality, I'd prefer for the material to challenge its audience instead of stroking their ego.

In order to challenge the audience the material needs to be well thought through, well put together, and well presented. When it comes to ME3 I don't think that it was any of those things. Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

Modifié par Reorte, 18 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .

[Reorte]

Pressedcat wrote...

The funny thing is, I think I've seen more criticism directed towards the MEHEM in this one thread than I have over the past month of lurking around these boards.

Yet despite one or two hiccups it's been a more civilised discussion than an argument. Unusual for BSN.

[rekn2]

grim done poorly is just as bad as happy done poorly.


i also get the bias from walters. its his baby so of course he understands whats going on preEC. im actually amazed we got an EC at all. i keep reading about people speaking negatively about the BSN but in all honesty i think BW and specifically the ME team are by and far more biased towards their own product than the fans will ever be.

walters is surrounded by a bunch of people that i call "yes sirs". no matter how bad or screwed up something is they salute, smile and give their approval. anyone military will immediately know what im talking about.

Modifié par rekn2, 18 octobre 2013 - 05:43 .

[crimzontearz]

rekn2 wrote...

grim done poorly is just as bad as happy done poorly.


i also get the bias from walters. its his baby so of course he understands whats going on preEC. im actually amazed we got an EC at all. i keep reading about people speaking negatively about the BSN but in all honesty i think BW and specifically the ME team are by and far more biased towards their own product than the fans will ever be.

walters is surrounded by a bunch of people that i call "yes sirs". no matter how bad or screwed up something is they salute, smile and give their approval. anyone military will immediately know what im talking about.

his mother also, apparently, never taught him how to properly apologize

[CronoDragoon]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Starting out an argument with "I don't get variable X" is not a good way create an argument, It implies ignorance and closed mindedness.

It actually implies the opposite, since I am stating not that there is no legitimate reason to hate MEHEM, rather that I have not come across one as of yet. Nice try, though.

[CronoDragoon]

crimzontearz wrote...
his mother also, apparently, never taught him how to properly apologize

OK OK hold up. Walters has nothing to apologize for unless we're considering misleading marketing statements. Certainly not for making an ending fans didn't like.

[Pressedcat]

Reorte wrote...


At the risk of over-simplifying we've got four outcomes:

1. Happy, makes sense.
2. Happy, doesn't make sense
3. Tragic, makes sense
4. Tragic, doesn't make sense

It is an over-simplification, but it is also quite illustrative. The only problem, as you noted, is that people rarely agree as to exactly where on the scale the different endings fall. I'm willing to bet my scoring of the EC endings would liecloser to 3 whilst yours would tend towards 4. The problem is that some will state emphatically that EC=4 whilst not assigning a number to MEHEM other than 'preferable', to which others will retaliate with MEHEM=2.

The reality is neither ending has an integer value.

[crimzontearz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
his mother also, apparently, never taught him how to properly apologize

OK OK hold up. Walters has nothing to apologize for unless we're considering misleading marketing statements. Certainly not for making an ending fans didn't like.

there is that


 
And when an official statement was released he said "we are sorry you do not feel the ending is up to par and it hurts us"

Or was it Ray? Anyway, bad form

[Reorte]

Pressedcat wrote...

Reorte wrote...


At the risk of over-simplifying we've got four outcomes:

1. Happy, makes sense.
2. Happy, doesn't make sense
3. Tragic, makes sense
4. Tragic, doesn't make sense

It is an over-simplification, but it is also quite illustrative. The only problem, as you noted, is that people rarely agree as to exactly where on the scale the different endings fall. I'm willing to bet my scoring of the EC endings would liecloser to 3 whilst yours would tend towards 4. The problem is that some will state emphatically that EC=4 whilst not assigning a number to MEHEM other than 'preferable', to which others will retaliate with MEHEM=2.

The reality is neither ending has an integer value.

MEHEM aims more towards 2 than 1 IMO, but since even with the EC ithe official ending is still closer to 4 for me I don't have too much of a problem with that. Actually the EC is a strange combinations of 2 and 4.

An important factor missing from my categories is that you can have something simple, straightforward, and unimaginative that fits all four of them, so there probably needs to be another pair, "Thought-provoking (or intellectual) " through to "Daytime TV." The part of Mass Effect that really nailed that one IMO was the Heretic decision in ME2, which required considering the nature of a dispersed intelligence that would essentially be reprogramming itself all the time anyway, with no fixed boundaries to it. It completely made my head hurt, was by far and away the hardest decision in all three games for me, and is one of the few examples I've encountered of a completely alien intelligence that also sounds like it could really work.

Modifié par Reorte, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Pressedcat]

Reorte wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...

The funny thing is, I think I've seen more criticism directed towards the MEHEM in this one thread than I have over the past month of lurking around these boards.

Yet despite one or two hiccups it's been a more civilised discussion than an argument. Unusual for BSN.

Why can't we all just get along?

www.youtube.com/watch

[Chashan]

In order to challenge the audience the material needs to be well thought through, well put together, and well presented. When it comes to ME3 I don't think that it was any of those things. Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

Which has been part of MEHEM for the longest time: at low EMS, there is no memorial scene and low EMS-Red epilogue plays. Implication being that Normandy, along with most anything else got wiped.

Gets another look at in the next version, of course, to differentiate it further, but it's nothing new by any means. The whole EMS-system was supposed to work that way, I imagine. Shame that wasn't thought through further.

Modifié par Chashan, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:15 .

[Wynterdust]

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

[CronoDragoon]

Reorte wrote...
Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

Unless you believe that morally problematic scenarios out of which the player cannot escape is always better than power fantasies. While I like both, there are definitely some who want the former in all of their fiction. The two different views are identifiable in Mass Effect 2's ending vs. 3's. Do you want your actions to give you a better outcome or worse depending on your choices, or simply different consequences that are all morally grey? ME3 actually does both, though this is not recognized because 1. of how underdeveloped EMS system can feel 2. some players feel that EMS needed a higher level of achievement for Destroy.

[Pressedcat]

Reorte wrote...


An important factor missing from my categories is that you can have something simple, straightforward, and unimaginative that fits all four of them, so there probably needs to be another pair, "Thought-provoking (or intellectual) " through to "Daytime TV." The part of Mass Effect that really nailed that one IMO was the Heretic decision in ME2, which required considering the nature of a dispersed intelligence that would essentially be reprogramming itself all the time anyway, with no fixed boundaries to it. It completely made my head hurt, was by far and away the hardest decision in all three games for me, and is one of the few examples I've encountered of a completely alien intelligence that also sounds like it could really work.

Indeed, the Geth in ME2 were really cool, and their stated objective was very interesting. I always found the effort to humanize the Geth in ME3 a bit of a let-down, as they were one of the few sentient races in ME to feel truly alien.

[Vortex13]

Pressedcat wrote...

Reorte wrote...


An important factor missing from my categories is that you can have something simple, straightforward, and unimaginative that fits all four of them, so there probably needs to be another pair, "Thought-provoking (or intellectual) " through to "Daytime TV." The part of Mass Effect that really nailed that one IMO was the Heretic decision in ME2, which required considering the nature of a dispersed intelligence that would essentially be reprogramming itself all the time anyway, with no fixed boundaries to it. It completely made my head hurt, was by far and away the hardest decision in all three games for me, and is one of the few examples I've encountered of a completely alien intelligence that also sounds like it could really work.

Indeed, the Geth in ME2 were really cool, and their stated objective was very interesting. I always found the effort to humanize the Geth in ME3 a bit of a let-down, as they were one of the few sentient races in ME to feel truly alien.

Same here.