486 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

since good and better are subjective terms you cannot say it is not now can you? Not objectively

[jtav]

I prefer different consequences that are all grey. It actually gives me motive to replay the game and create different sorts of PCs with different value system. If there's an ending that's obviously superior, I feel like I'm playing incorrectly if I don't get it.

[crimzontearz]

jtav wrote...

I prefer different consequences that are all grey. It actually gives me motive to replay the game and create different sorts of PCs with different value system. If there's an ending that's obviously superior, I feel like I'm playing incorrectly if I don't get it.

superior is also subjective

Describe a superior ending to ME3, the MEHEM maybe? If so, why does everyone who has the PC version not have it installed?

[KaiserShep]

Reorte wrote...
No, it's just that, whilst neither of them are good, and least one of them has the merit of leaving you feeling good, whilst the other has no merit at all. The tragic parts are simply pissing on the audience when there's no particularly good rationale for them (as opposed to patting the audience on the head).

At the risk of over-simplifying we've got four outcomes:

1. Happy, makes sense.
2. Happy, doesn't make sense
3. Tragic, makes sense
4. Tragic, doesn't make sense

It's over-simplifying of course because they aren't discrete, there's a continuum between happy and tragic and makes sense and doesn't make sense. Be that as it may points 1 to 3 all have their up sides, but point 4 doesn't have any at all. 1 is the best, but getting it exclusively just makes everything tired, predictable, and boring, because no chance of outcome 3 utterly kills drama. 3 is the hardest to do well, which is possibly why it sometimes seems to get put on a pedestal. 2 is the fizz.

The lack of sense isn't simply due to lack of exposition on them, and a potentially good idea doesn't get let off the hook if it could be made to work in a completely different context but makes no sense in this one.

In the absence of practicality, I'd prefer for the material to challenge its audience instead of stroking their ego.

In order to challenge the audience the material needs to be well thought through, well put together, and well presented. When it comes to ME3 I don't think that it was any of those things. Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

An example I like to go back to regarding a tragic ending that makes sense is The Walking Dead. The final scene is very much a downer, but it's a downer that totally fits the narrative, which is why I found it very satisfying. Another is Children of Men. The story basically ends with the hero's death, and the future left no more certain than it was in the beginning, yet somehow, it worked. You got just enough to believe that things could get better, yet you never really get to see that happen, and it's pretty much left up in the air as the credits roll.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:29 .

[Pressedcat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

Starting out an argument with "I don't get variable X" is not a good way create an argument, It implies ignorance and closed mindedness.

It actually implies the opposite, since I am stating not that there is no legitimate reason to hate MEHEM, rather that I have not come across one as of yet. Nice try, though.

The problem is the word 'hate'. I don't hate the MEHEM, but I do think there are legitimate criticisms.

For me, the MEHEM taken in vacuum lacks any explanations whatsoever as to the origin of the Reapers, and in a game characterised by making choices, offers none.

Of course the mod was made under severe limitations, and acts more as a bandage than a cure to ME3's ills, but that doesn't negate the criticisms, especially when the MEHEM is brought up as an alternate, preferable ending.

[Wynterdust]

crimzontearz wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

since good and better are subjective terms you cannot say it is not now can you? Not objectively

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

[KwangtungTiger]

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

I've never understood how people say that ME3 endings are somehow a difficult choice? Everything that I had done up to the point of the end, I was ready to destroy them. As soon as he was done talking.......BAM, Destroy. There was nothing deep about the ending to me.

I'm not bashing it, just stating my opinion.

[CronoDragoon]

Pressedcat wrote...
The problem is the word 'hate'. I don't hate the MEHEM, but I do think there are legitimate criticisms.

For me, the MEHEM taken in vacuum lacks any explanations whatsoever as to the origin of the Reapers, and in a game characterised by making choices, offers none.

Of course the mod was made under severe limitations, and acts more as a bandage than a cure to ME3's ills, but that doesn't negate the criticisms, especially when the MEHEM is brought up as an alternate, preferable ending.

I don't have any problems criticizing MEHEM and have quite a few problems with it myself. But I have seen more vicious criticisms that I don't believe are deserved, such as MEHEM is an insult to BioWare, or MEHEM is disgusting and should not exist, or BW should sue. That's the stuff I don't get.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

I prefer different consequences that are all grey. It actually gives me motive to replay the game and create different sorts of PCs with different value system. If there's an ending that's obviously superior, I feel like I'm playing incorrectly if I don't get it.

Which is why I like DAO endings.  None feel objectively better.  I can see the appeal to all of them, even if I prefer some over others.

ME3's endings, howver, do not feel that way.  They're not "morally grey" to me.  Or rather, they are all too dark a shade for me to tolerate.  Every outcome feels like I "was doing it wrong" or that I was being punished for some hidden transgression.  I see th eendings, go "There is no outcome that's better than these" and go cold inside.

In fact, if you look at a no-import Shepard with decision-making turned off, that seems to be the Shepard these endings seem desgined for.  But that's not my Shepard.  My charcter is trapped in another player's game.  And the only way out is a mod.  

[CronoDragoon]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

I've never understood how people say that ME3 endings are somehow a difficult choice? Everything that I had done up to the point of the end, I was ready to destroy them. As soon as he was done talking.......BAM, Destroy. There was nothing deep about the ending to me.

Well something doesn't have to be "deep" to be a difficult choice. Virmire is about as shallow as you can get philosophically, but it can still be a difficult choice for players.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the geth/EDI?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:34 .

[Iakus]

Wynterdust wrote...

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

Over as thousand choices were made before ME3 even starts.  And more are made across this game.

I'll give up one if it means a better ending

Modifié par iakus, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:34 .

[Wynterdust]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

I've never understood how people say that ME3 endings are somehow a difficult choice? Everything that I had done up to the point of the end, I was ready to destroy them. As soon as he was done talking.......BAM, Destroy. There was nothing deep about the ending to me.

I'm not bashing it, just stating my opinion.

Aye, it probably was an easy choice for a number of players. But it is supposed to represent a difficult choice. That's what I meant. The mod doesn't offer any of that, it's just an easy way out of making said choice. And because it has no choice, it feels like more of a disconnect than the original endings.

[Chashan]

jtav wrote...

I prefer different consequences that are all grey. It actually gives me motive to replay the game and create different sorts of PCs with different value system. If there's an ending that's obviously superior, I feel like I'm playing incorrectly if I don't get it.

'Obviously superior' is a value that varies from player to player, as I am sure you are aware. And it is not like that type of judgement isn't left at players' discretion in the finale as things stand, either.

I know it's been brought up numerous times, but in the case of DA:O there are people who genuinely prefer the Ultimate Sacrifice for their PCs, towards the same goal in the end, which is to take down the big bad that is the Archdemon.

And the judgements taken by players based on different values ascribed to their PCs were expressed in a lengthy epilogue in the end, describing in detail further developments as a result of the actions taken, beyond the question of the Blight.


ME3's EC-epilogue may not be as detailed as that, but depending on which choice is taken it is shown in the same manner in MEHEM as in the original - different outcomes (it is telling the peace on Rannoch doesn't get referenced in EC-Destroy; in MEHEM, it is), different implications that can be garnered from the slides, etc.

So, to be had, I actually much prefer this set-up where choices are taken during the course of the game, but the consequences are left out of the PC's hands.

[Wynterdust]

iakus wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

Over as thousand choices were made before ME3 even starts.  And more are made across this game.

I'll give up one if it means a better ending

I see your reasoning but it's taking out arguably the most significant choice in the entire trilogy. A choice that the trilogy is building up to. In a way, it sort of makes the entire trilogy redundant as in the end you're going to win no matter what.

[Iakus]

Wynterdust wrote...

I see your reasoning but it's taking out arguably the most significant choice in the entire trilogy. A choice that the trilogy is building up to. In a way, it sort of makes the entire trilogy redundant as in the end you're going to win no matter what.

I think just the opposite.  I find that last choice nonsensical, and renders the entire trilogy pointless.  The buildup of the trilogy to me is reflected in the composition of the ginormous fleet brought to Earth and the scientists that builtthe Crucible.  

And in the next version of MEHEM, there will be a separate Low EMS version.  So failure is still an option.

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

I see your reasoning but it's taking out arguably the most significant choice in the entire trilogy. A choice that the trilogy is building up to. In a way, it sort of makes the entire trilogy redundant as in the end you're going to win no matter what.

I think just the opposite.  I find that last choice nonsensical, and renders the entire trilogy pointless.  The buildup of the trilogy to me is reflected in the composition of the ginormous fleet brought to Earth and the scientists that builtthe Crucible.  

And in the next version of MEHEM, there will be a separate Low EMS version.  So failure is still an option.

QFT

[Reorte]

jtav wrote...

I prefer different consequences that are all grey. It actually gives me motive to replay the game and create different sorts of PCs with different value system. If there's an ending that's obviously superior, I feel like I'm playing incorrectly if I don't get it.

I suppose that it depends upon how you're playing it. For me far and away the most important playthrough is the first one, without having learned anything about the game in advance. Then every decision weighs heavily - have I saved this character? Have I doomed that planet? Then both the elation and despair can go far deeper than is possible with any other medium, and that is, for me, the great almost untapped strength of games for telling stories (and it's Mass Effect that first really made me realise that). That naturally lends itself to having a superior ending to aim for, but  for later playthroughs where you've distanced yourself from the game somewhat, and are roleplaying other characters I can see why you'd want your approach.

[Iakus]

Reorte wrote...

In the absence of practicality, I'd prefer for the material to challenge its audience instead of stroking their ego.

In order to challenge the audience the material needs to be well thought through, well put together, and well presented. When it comes to ME3 I don't think that it was any of those things. Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

I'd go so far as to say in the absence of practicality, you can't effectively challenge the audience.  All you'll do is make them confused and unhappy, since the challenge itself is nonsensical.

[Reorte]

Wynterdust wrote...

iakus wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

Over as thousand choices were made before ME3 even starts.  And more are made across this game.

I'll give up one if it means a better ending

I see your reasoning but it's taking out arguably the most significant choice in the entire trilogy. A choice that the trilogy is building up to. In a way, it sort of makes the entire trilogy redundant as in the end you're going to win no matter what.

It isn't building up to that though, other than a few hints about Control. From the characters' points of view it's all about get to the Crucible and activate it, and hope that's no more Reapers. The decisions along the way have been to help get you there, hopefully without getting too many other people killed along the way, and helping to shape the post-Reaper galaxy. It's only because we're used to not getting simple, straightforward resolutions like that that there's any expectation of anything else.

[Pressedcat]

iakus wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

Over as thousand choices were made before ME3 even starts.  And more are made across this game.

I'll give up one if it means a better ending

I think the problem of lack of choice arrises only if the origin of the Reapers is revealed. With such a revelation, the player will likely want the ability to react to it. Different Shepards might very well process and respond to the information very differently, leading to the need for a final choice as to how to deal with Reapers. You might not like the explanation BioWare opted for, or the choices they go on to present, but given they did decide to expound on the Reapers' origins, they HAD to then offer choices.

The only time BioWare could afford to offer no final decision is if they entirely withheld all information about how the Reapers arose, or else simply stated it was because they were evil with a capital 'E'. I personally would have been deeply dissatisfied with the former, and found the latter explanation a cop-out.

Of course, none of this is an assertion as to the quality of the EC endings, only the need for a final choice of some form.

[KaiserShep]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

I've never understood how people say that ME3 endings are somehow a difficult choice? Everything that I had done up to the point of the end, I was ready to destroy them. As soon as he was done talking.......BAM, Destroy. There was nothing deep about the ending to me.

I'm not bashing it, just stating my opinion.

Thing is, for players who wanted to see all the races they united live happily out of the shadow of the reapers were probably sorely disappointed when they discovered that destroying the reapers would take that away in destroying EDI, with whom Shepard can become a close friend with, and even encourage a relationship with another ally, and the geth, that FINALLY got to reunite with the quarians, and who basically started pulling all the stops to help the quarians rebuild.

When I was presented with this choice, I was disappointed by this as well. So I had to decide whether or not simply eradicating the AI, its reapers and zombies is worth the cost of the synthetic race as a whole. That may have been an easy decision for some, but I can see why it's not acceptable for others. I considered it an acceptable trade and destroyed them anyway, but I can't really say that it was particularly satisfying either. The thing that made it easier though is the fact that I abhor the idea of immortality with every fiber of my being, and certainly have zero desire to alter the framework of all life in the cosmos, not to mention that I simply do not believe that the reapers' continued existence would be particularly good for anyone. Not to mention I tend to be rather hostile towards the concept of any kind of "heaven on earth" ideals.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 18 octobre 2013 - 06:52 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

Reorte wrote...

In the absence of practicality, I'd prefer for the material to challenge its audience instead of stroking their ego.

In order to challenge the audience the material needs to be well thought through, well put together, and well presented. When it comes to ME3 I don't think that it was any of those things. Also, there's nothing wrong with a bit good, escapist fun.  When it comes to ego-stoking that's not bad if the player has earned it, and should go along with doing its best to crush the player when they've screwed up.

I'd go so far as to say in the absence of practicality, you can't effectively challenge the audience.  All you'll do is make them confused and unhappy, since the challenge itself is nonsensical.

I disagree. This is where varied interpretation comes into play, granted you don't let willful cynicism take over. 

[crimzontearz]

Wynterdust wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Wynterdust wrote...

Personally haven't got a problem with it if it's what floats peoples boats. However when some fanatics claim it as a real or canon ending then it would rub people up the wrong way. Even more so when there are some that then say it is better than the original endings. It simply is not. Not because it's a happy ending, but because it is an easy way out of making a difficult choice which in turn completely defeats the objective of the trilogy. Making choices.

since good and better are subjective terms you cannot say it is not now can you? Not objectively

In terms of quality it is nowhere near as well done. Which is obvious considering it is only a mod.
Also taking away choice in a game that is all about choice takes away from the overall quality as I previously said.
The idea itself and how much one likes it is opinion based, absolutely.

qualitatively..sure


 
But otherwise? Nope