142 réponses à ce sujet

[Xamufam]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
We're never actually given any understanding as to why everyone assembles at Earth but apparently they just know the citadel will be moved there (I guess before being moved to other planets after sucking Earth dry of organic life).

Wait, what? Does anyone actually assemble at Earth before the Citadel arrives there? I didn't see that happen, or hear anyone talk about it having happened. I saw fleets coming through the Charon Realay from someplace else.

yep in the whole game, the first meeting with the council, the turian Hierarchy
, garrus, hacket before you go to the cerberus base & before the reapers take the citadel & more

Modifié par Troxa, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:13 .

[AlexMBrennan]

garrus, hacket before you go to the cerberus base & before the reapers take the citadel & more

WTF?
Garrus is a squadmate, so he could not possibly have gone to Earth before Chronos because you can take him along.
Similarly, you meet Hacket after Chronos station (he has to come aboard the Normandy for some reason) so he couldn't have gone to Earth before the final assault either.

[Xamufam]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

garrus, hacket before you go to the cerberus base & before the reapers take the citadel & more

WTF?
Garrus is a squadmate, so he could not possibly have gone to Earth before Chronos because you can take him along.
Similarly, you meet Hacket after Chronos station (he has to come aboard the Normandy for some reason) so he couldn't have gone to Earth before the final assault either.

they were talking about it & planning to go to earth before chronos so did the turian Hierarchy
go see what happens after tuchanka, speak to the turian Hierarchy & go speak to garrus

Modifié par Troxa, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:16 .

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
We're never actually given any understanding as to why everyone assembles at Earth but apparently they just know the citadel will be moved there (I guess before being moved to other planets after sucking Earth dry of organic life).

Wait, what? Does anyone actually assemble at Earth before the Citadel arrives there? I didn't see that happen, or hear anyone talk about it having happened. I saw fleets coming through the Charon Realay from someplace else.

Everything in ME3 is about saving Earth and yes they come through the relay to protect it, but as I've frequently been told it's supposed to be for protecting the Crucible which is not at Earth until they move it.  But Shepard is assembling people to come and protect Earth BEFORE the citadel and then the crucible is moved.  Seems rather convenient that the crucible was being made so near to Earth, though.  And it wasn't right away that they even thought the citadel was the catalyst.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 octobre 2013 - 11:16 .

[Karlone123]

On Mass Effect being very distant and having nothing to do with ME3 at all, me and a friend talked about this. And on the down and dirty type of Mass Effect being more gritty like a cyberpunk game would be. Playing as a criminalistic character who wasn't that bound to the role of the good guy like Shepard was. Shepard can be rogue but he/she still felt obliged to be good cause Hackett said so.

[3DandBeyond]

Troxa wrote...

I think the original plot was that only humans met the requirement to become a reaper & shepard had impressed the reapers
Harbinger quotes


Quotes about the Squad data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D
“Your allies have fallen, Shepard.”
“You have no one left, Shepard.”
“Your minions have failed, Shepard.”
“And now you stand alone, Shepard.”
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”
“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”
“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”
“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Destiny Quotes data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D
“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”

Pain Quotes
“Such beings need never fear pain.”
“Sentient beings need never fear pain.”
“There is no pain.”
“You only damage the vessel, you cannot hurt me.”
“This body's pain is irrelevant.”
“Pain is an illusion.”

More harbinger quotes

Must have been so-that only the apex race became a reaper but then they said they made other reapers from other races.  Ugh.  The plot of ME2 revolved a lot around who destroyed who first (or took home the body)-Shepard destroys the collectors or they destroy Shepard.

Sure I remember all of that dialogue, but it's really not played out or examined well in ME3.  They just assume everyone knows the reapers wanna get humans and Earth.  This is the one place where they actually fail new and old players (there are others but this sticks out).  On the one hand, they think new players will just accept that it's all about humans and Earth, specifically.   But on the other hand, they don't really provide this full firm basis as to why it is.  Shepard could be colony or space born and have no real connection to Earth beyond that is where humans came from-just as say an Italian American who has never been to Italy and didn't have a real relationship with the country may care about it, but still can consider where he was born or the whole planet matters more. 

I think veteran players may find it harder to accept but at least they got some idea that the reapers wanted human goo.  It's explained that humans are at the top of the food chain this time around, but it isn't really ever explained (at least to my satisfaction) as to why when they make reapers out of a whole lot of races, they look to make their newest bad boy reaper out of the apex race, and why humanity is.  They also never explain the plague on Omega and why they wanted Shepard alive or dead.  Seems to me maybe they thought throwing even a dead body into a green beam would work.

The whole thing just is messed up to me.  The galaxy matters as a whole, but right from the start of ME3, everyone is talking as if the loss of Earth will mean the loss of everything.  Why?  Earth doesn't have the biggest or most powerful fleet.  Earth isn't the richest or even the most allied planet or most respected-so others would have a natural allegiance.  Earth and humans, are not widely liked even.  And one of the biggest anti-everyone organization running amok in the galaxy is made up of humans-Cerberus.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 octobre 2013 - 11:19 .

[SwobyJ]

It's almost as if we're missing a layer of the story.

[SwobyJ]

HE leads the fleets to Earth. And their doom.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:06 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Snip

Must have been so-that only the apex race became a reaper but then they said they made other reapers from other races.  Ugh.  The plot of ME2 revolved a lot around who destroyed who first (or took home the body)-Shepard destroys the collectors or they destroy Shepard.
Sure I remember all of that dialogue, but it's really not played out or examined well in ME3.  They just assume everyone knows the reapers wanna get humans and Earth.  This is the one place where they actually fail new and old players (there are others but this sticks out).  On the one hand, they think new players will just accept that it's all about humans and Earth, specifically.   But on the other hand, they don't really provide this full firm basis as to why it is.  Shepard could be colony or space born and have no real connection to Earth beyond that is where humans came from-just as say an Italian American who has never been to Italy and didn't have a real relationship with the country may care about it, but still can consider where he was born or the whole planet matters more.  
I think veteran players may find it harder to accept but at least they got some idea that the reapers wanted human goo.  It's explained that humans are at the top of the food chain this time around, but it isn't really ever explained (at least to my satisfaction) as to why when they make reapers out of a whole lot of races, they look to make their newest bad boy reaper out of the apex race, and why humanity is.  They also never explain the plague on Omega and why they wanted Shepard alive or dead.  Seems to me maybe they thought throwing even a dead body into a green beam would work.
The whole thing just is messed up to me.  The galaxy matters as a whole, but right from the start of ME3, everyone is talking as if the loss of Earth will mean the loss of everything.  Why?  Earth doesn't have the biggest or most powerful fleet.  Earth isn't the richest or even the most allied planet or most respected-so others would have a natural allegiance.  Earth and humans, are not widely liked even.  And one of the biggest anti-everyone organization running amok in the galaxy is made up of humans-Cerberus.

No seriously, this is the only answer I feel when I play ME3, especially after coming off ME2 in a trilogy play through...

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Everything in ME3 is about saving Earth and yes they come through the relay to protect it, but as I've frequently been told it's supposed to be for protecting the Crucible which is not at Earth until they move it.  But Shepard is assembling people to come and protect Earth BEFORE the citadel and then the crucible is moved.  Seems rather convenient that the crucible was being made so near to Earth, though.  And it wasn't right away that they even thought the citadel was the catalyst.

Who says the Crucible was being made anywhere near Earth? It comes through the relay the same way every other ship does.

So when you said "why everybody assembles at Earth" you just meant "why everyone talks about assembling at Earth," right? Fine. I just couldn't figure out what you were talking about.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:21 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
 Shepard could be colony or space born and have no real connection to Earth beyond that is where humans came from-just as say an Italian American who has never been to Italy and didn't have a real relationship with the country may care about it, but still can consider where he was born or the whole planet matters more.

Since the vast majority of the human population still lives in Sol system in Shepard's time, a better metaphor would be a Hawaiian contemplating a threat to the continental US.

Note that in Wing Commander it's canon that Christopher Blair was not born on Earth, although he did visit the place once or twice. Didn't cause a problem for that game.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:29 .

[Massa FX]

I'll miss Shepard. I feelz for Shepard's fate. Hell. I sometimes still get mad about it.

But I'd rather let that go than make matters worse with more Shepard story/lore. Any new Shepard stuff will ****** me off if it doesn't continue my own desire for Shepard's fate. Impossible for Bioware? Yes. So let Shepard's fate rest wherever it is. Please.

I'm beyond ready for a new protagonist within the MEU!

Modifié par Massa FX, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:27 .

[DesioPL]

I like Cynical Brit show, when he making movies from Cataclysm expansion, and yeah... He got right here... But i don't care anylonger discuss about endings and new Mass Effect.

Modifié par DesioPL, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:19 .

[RustyLH]

iakus wrote...

 "the Shepard Incident"?



"I want to be able to start Mass Effect, and forget that Mass Effect 3 ever existed and just get back into that universe"

You and me both, Mr Biscuit.  You and me both.

Not me, not if the game takes place after ME3.  I want to have some connection to the past.  They can do it in such a way that leaves out all of the ugly stuff.  And the connection doesn't need to be huge.  A ship named after Shepard, or a base, etc...  I would love to run into a Matriarch Liara, who we just receive some advice from, or a key peice of information, etc...

if it takes place well before ME3, or even ME1, then fine, it would be obvious that not one single reference to Shepard and company would be in the game.  But one that takes place during or after ME3 would be stupid to not at least reference what happened, or in some way tie into it.  If we played all three, we need to know how and why we got to where we now find ourselves.  One way or another, they would have to choose an ending for ME3 to launch from.  Are their friendly reapers running about?  Is everyone half computer?  Are all AI dead and wiped out through the destruction ending?  Etc...

One possibility is that they choose the refusal ending, but it is now 20 years into the future, and all hope is not lost.  A whole new hero has to find a way to defeat the Reapers, and this time, he would have the possibility of succeeding.  I highly doubt this would work with the way they had the Reapers basically running all over the galaxy at once.  Might have worked better if they had had the Reapers trying to just take Earth...not having the numbers to take on the whole galaxy at once.  Had they made it such that the repaers would literally have to take a century or two to completely conquer the galaxy, this idea would be workable.  But they didn't.

So it appears that if it is after ME3, they will have to come up with a whole new enemy and threat to the galaxy.  Maybe it could turn out that the Repaers were doing the same to another Galaxy, and now that Galaxy has a threat come from it.  They know about the Reapers and know they came from the Milkyway, and are bent on destroying the Milkyway because the think the Reapers were actually weapons used by the galaxy to conquer other galaxies...they don't know the Reapers were doing the same to the Milkyway, and they aren't about to trust the word of anyone from the Milkyway.  But they havelearned the secret of Mass effect relays, and sent one to or several to our galaxy and will use them to invade.

Really, the possibilities are limitless, and I just like the idea of playing something new in this same universe...but I do want to see references to the past, even if they are ones that can be ignored, such as memorials you can go visit, etc...

How about a tour of the rebuilt citadel, and the keepers no longer do the work, so the citadel races had to study it and learn the secrets of it and the relays.

[RustyLH]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Troxa wrote...

I think the original plot was that only humans met the requirement to become a reaper & shepard had impressed the reapers
Harbinger quotes


Quotes about the Squad data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D
“Your allies have fallen, Shepard.”
“You have no one left, Shepard.”
“Your minions have failed, Shepard.”
“And now you stand alone, Shepard.”
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”
“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”
“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”
“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Destiny Quotes data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D
“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“You have merely delayed the inevitable.”
“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”

Pain Quotes
“Such beings need never fear pain.”
“Sentient beings need never fear pain.”
“There is no pain.”
“You only damage the vessel, you cannot hurt me.”
“This body's pain is irrelevant.”
“Pain is an illusion.”

More harbinger quotes

Must have been so-that only the apex race became a reaper but then they said they made other reapers from other races.  Ugh.  The plot of ME2 revolved a lot around who destroyed who first (or took home the body)-Shepard destroys the collectors or they destroy Shepard.

Sure I remember all of that dialogue, but it's really not played out or examined well in ME3.  They just assume everyone knows the reapers wanna get humans and Earth.  This is the one place where they actually fail new and old players (there are others but this sticks out).  On the one hand, they think new players will just accept that it's all about humans and Earth, specifically.   But on the other hand, they don't really provide this full firm basis as to why it is.  Shepard could be colony or space born and have no real connection to Earth beyond that is where humans came from-just as say an Italian American who has never been to Italy and didn't have a real relationship with the country may care about it, but still can consider where he was born or the whole planet matters more. 

I think veteran players may find it harder to accept but at least they got some idea that the reapers wanted human goo.  It's explained that humans are at the top of the food chain this time around, but it isn't really ever explained (at least to my satisfaction) as to why when they make reapers out of a whole lot of races, they look to make their newest bad boy reaper out of the apex race, and why humanity is.  They also never explain the plague on Omega and why they wanted Shepard alive or dead.  Seems to me maybe they thought throwing even a dead body into a green beam would work.

The whole thing just is messed up to me.  The galaxy matters as a whole, but right from the start of ME3, everyone is talking as if the loss of Earth will mean the loss of everything.  Why?  Earth doesn't have the biggest or most powerful fleet.  Earth isn't the richest or even the most allied planet or most respected-so others would have a natural allegiance.  Earth and humans, are not widely liked even.  And one of the biggest anti-everyone organization running amok in the galaxy is made up of humans-Cerberus.

Agreed.  They should have made this the theme...why do the Reapers want humans.  And in fact, this could have been used to make it such that the other races were not immediately threatened.  This could have completely altered the game.  It would have made a lot of sense that the other races would not feel the need to intervene.  It would appear that the Repaers only wanted Human goo and would possibly leave everyone else alone, so why get the tiger's attention when the tiger seems intent on other prey?  This is where gathering allies would have made a difference.  The Geth/Quarian dilema would have 4 sepearate outcomes.  Both sides beat each other down so much that they are ineffective and unable to help.  Or one side or the other is relatively intact and able to be added to your force.  Or both are largely intact, and able to be part of your force.  In the last option, it would have been best to allow the Geth Dreadnaught to survive.

This would also make saving the Salarians on Novaria matter.  And getting the Krogan's to join in, and the Rachni, etc...  It would all matter.  Some mission or another could be used to make the Reapers attack another race, which would show the rest of the races that they can't sit idely by.   But getting it to happen would be tricky.

They really did drop the ball on ME3.  I did like it for just one reason...I like Mass Effect so much, but the story really did not satisfy like it could have.  It jsut seems that they took the lazy way out.  Or rather, a somewhat low budget, get it done fast and out the door and makes the money, way of making the game.  No real care about the franchise, just make money quickly off the loyal community.

There were things I did like about it, but there was plenty not to like, and the fact that nothing you did through all three games made a single bit of a difference was the worst part, and the fact that you couldn't achieve complete victory was another.  I don't care if it didn't seem original...it is satisfying after so many game hours put into getting to that point...you want the chance to win it all.

Can you imagine a suicide mission where it is innevitable that certain characters would automatically die, and nothing you did would change that?  What if the only real affect you had on the ending was to choose what to do with the Collector base?  Wouldn't that suck?

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
 Shepard could be colony or space born and have no real connection to Earth beyond that is where humans came from-just as say an Italian American who has never been to Italy and didn't have a real relationship with the country may care about it, but still can consider where he was born or the whole planet matters more.

Since the vast majority of the human population still lives in Sol system in Shepard's time, a better metaphor would be a Hawaiian contemplating a threat to the continental US.

Note that in Wing Commander it's canon that Christopher Blair was not born on Earth, although he did visit the place once or twice. Didn't cause a problem for that game.

It's also worth noting that the WC series was primarily a non RPG.... (okay, a little bit RPG, but not an out and out RPG) flight sim. The player's were invested in the story line supporting the reason why they flew out on missions

ME is different. The player has more control over a critical aspect of the game. Who is commander Shepard? Blair is Blair..... Shepard can be anyone.

And I put this distinction down to the Table Top Role playing games that the founders of BW loved. They took the concept of rolling a character and took that aspect, and then developed a play style that gave the gamers a reason to become..... immensely invested in their Shepard.

And that's a good thing. Because it means they got the TTRPG element of character creation and play through right. Not many games allow you to make your character..... It's all, Lightening, and Cloud and Dante..... It's these guys who are hero's.... you just play them.

That not the BW way.

In a BW game, you make the hero. You build them up, you equip and skill them and they are unique in more ways than Snake, or Lara or etc......

It's a crying shame they killed Shepard. BW killed the player's personification of a video game hero so many times over for every Shepard that existed. And they did it because they thought Shepard was just another guy like all the other hero characters in video gaming......

That was the wrong approach to take. It's what other companies do. And the BW method of allowing players to choose who their hero is ought to reflect in how that hero's journey ends, as well as begins.

DA:O got that right, at least.

Modifié par Redbelle, 29 octobre 2013 - 10:33 .

[Oni Changas]

Troxa wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
We're never actually given any understanding as to why everyone assembles at Earth but apparently they just know the citadel will be moved there (I guess before being moved to other planets after sucking Earth dry of organic life).

Wait, what? Does anyone actually assemble at Earth before the Citadel arrives there? I didn't see that happen, or hear anyone talk about it having happened. I saw fleets coming through the Charon Realay from someplace else.

yep in the whole game, the first meeting with the council, the turian Hierarchy
, garrus, hacket before you go to the cerberus base & before the reapers take the citadel & more

Here's what I take from the "Save EARFFF" narrative point:

1.  I'm (Shepard) human. My homeworld is getting ****ed up. My race is being scorched by the millions each week. Why WOULDN'T I request help?

2.  Also, until Shepard actually gets TO Menae/Palaven and sees other homeworlds, his assumption is that they have it way better. For the most part (s)he's right.

3. Shepard isn't asking EVERYONE to just drop their **** and get to Sol, he's just asking for reinforcements, like Anderson told him. Anderson assumed the Council would finally get their heads out their asses and help humans militarily for once. Obviously he was wrong. They sent NO help to Earth (but do assist with the Crucible AFTER Shepard busts his ass for them). Like Wrex and Victus, their partnership and cooperation was only begun when the latter helped the former.

4. In the end, Earth BECAME important (this despite the fact that the Reapers practically spelt it out that humans were next in the elevation line of Sovereign class races) due to the Citadel being moved there for them to protect and overlook directly while beginning the process of recreating the human reaper. They moved the McGuffin (Catalyst) to Earth for easy access via allied assault. In the battle on Earth, it makes sense at that point for everyone to finally stop being a bunch of no good jerkasses.

[Kunari801]

Redbelle wrote...
....It's a crying shame they killed Shepard. BW killed the player's personification of a video game hero so many times over for every Shepard that existed. And they did it because they thought Shepard was just another guy like all the other hero characters in video gaming......

That was the wrong approach to take. It's what other companies do. And the BW method of allowing players to choose who their hero is ought to reflect in how that hero's journey ends, as well as begins.

DA:O got that right, at least.

Agreed, DA:O did such a better job with allowing players to choose the fate of their Warden's and Hawke's.  It really wouldn't have taken too much to do it in ME3's ending if they'd taken the time.  But like you said --and I still can't believe they didn't-- think players were expected player agency to the fate of their Shepard's.