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Unpopular Opinion Ahoy: The Extended Cut seemed like a waste


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#51
Rixatrix

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AlanC9 wrote...
What problem is this trying to solve? A player who thinks his Shepard A wouldn't pick option X can just.... not pick option X.


Reorte wrote...

The A, B, C thing is, I think, a fair complaint of the original endings, even if there are small EMS variations (such as no-one getting out of the Normandy). With the EC it's not great but there's enough to invalidate the complaint.


@Alan: Besides, y'know, how I mentioned that in a game touting its "decisions mattering," the decisions didn't matter when it offered all options no matter which decisions you made.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 18 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .


#52
Giantdeathrobot

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reorte wrote...

The A, B, C thing is, I think, a fair complaint of the original endings, even if there are small EMS variations (such as no-one getting out of the Normandy). With the EC it's not great but there's enough to invalidate the complaint.


The A, B, C thing was really, really stupid because A, B, C is an arbitrary labeling system. It can cover any level of differentiation, no matter how great or small. You can use A, B, C to differentiate between degrees of Destroy, or between the different end routes, or anything else.

There is absolutely nothing in the world that can't be differentiated into categories of A, B, C and so on... except for things which have no differentiation. Otherwise, there's no limit.





I think the A, B, C thing refers more to the whole ''here's your 3 endings, pick one'' structure, like the one that was also made in Deus Ex Human Revolution. It's an arbitrary label, sure, but then one could argue all labels are arbitrary. It was used to demonstrate that, rather than logical following from the player's previous decisions (like in, say, Fallout New Vegas), depended almost entirely on which of the 3 paths you took at the very end. Sure, EMS changed a bunch of things, but let's be honest, the mechanic is not exactly amazing. Have more, get a better ending, have less and be shat on. It's less choice and more optimization. It also wasn,t helped that the 3 endings were pretty similar in the original cut, on top of the general ****tyness of the whole thing. At least EC made it clear what was going to happen, even if it didn't go into as much details as it could. Then again, I'm the kind of guy who wants slides to explain the fate of every single community I visited in an RPG, it's why I love the Fallout series so much.

On topic, the EC was most definitely not a waste. If you need convoluted theories to even make a basic sense of what happens during your ending, well it's not a good ending, unless mystery was an integral part of the series which it most definitely wasn't. The damage was done and nothing short of a full rewrite would make me like the ending, but at least the EC made me hate it less.

#53
AlanC9

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BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
What problem is this trying to solve? A player who thinks his Shepard A wouldn't pick option X can just.... not pick option X.


Reorte wrote...
The A, B, C thing is, I think, a fair complaint of the original endings, even if there are small EMS variations (such as no-one getting out of the Normandy). With the EC it's not great but there's enough to invalidate the complaint.


@Alan: Besides, y'know, how I mentioned that in a game touting its "decisions mattering," the decisions didn't matter when it offered all options no matter which decisions you made.


 The decisions already have consequences. In addition to the consequences they already have they have to also control the endgame choice because.... why, again? This wouldn't add any variation to the endings-- you'd actually lose some.

#54
Rixatrix

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...

I think the A, B, C thing refers more to the whole ''here's your 3 endings, pick one'' structure, like the one that was also made in Deus Ex Human Revolution. ... It was used to demonstrate that, rather than logical following from the player's previous decisions (like in, say, Fallout New Vegas), depended almost entirely on which of the 3 paths you took at the very end. Sure, EMS changed a bunch of things, but let's be honest, the mechanic is not exactly amazing.


Image IPB
Spot on.

On topic, while I am still dissatisfied with the ending, the EC improved upon it IMHO.  Without the EC, some alternative interpretations still made sense, but if the ending (as seen in EC) is truly what BioWare intended, then yes, I suppose it was an improvement (except for how the evac was handled, but that's another story).  One of my major hangups with the ending (as Giantdeathrobot discusses above) was that the options were not tailored to nor logically flowing from my Shepard's decisions in the three games, something the EC didn't address.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 18 octobre 2013 - 03:43 .


#55
AlanC9

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Giantdeathrobot wrote..
I think the A, B, C thing refers more to the whole ''here's your 3 endings, pick one'' structure, like the one that was also made in Deus Ex Human Revolution. It's an arbitrary label, sure, but then one could argue all labels are arbitrary. It was used to demonstrate that, rather than logical following from the player's previous decisions (like in, say, Fallout New Vegas), depended almost entirely on which of the 3 paths you took at the very end. 


I guess this makes the argument a little clearer. But why is it presumptively better to have less choice in the endgame?

#56
Dubozz

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Whats the point to have a lot of choices in the end of the video game if all of them are ****ty?

#57
Rixatrix

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EDIT:
Giantdeathrobot, below, said it all better.  I agree.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 18 octobre 2013 - 04:27 .


#58
Giantdeathrobot

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AlanC9 wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote..
I think the A, B, C thing refers more to the whole ''here's your 3 endings, pick one'' structure, like the one that was also made in Deus Ex Human Revolution. It's an arbitrary label, sure, but then one could argue all labels are arbitrary. It was used to demonstrate that, rather than logical following from the player's previous decisions (like in, say, Fallout New Vegas), depended almost entirely on which of the 3 paths you took at the very end. 


I guess this makes the argument a little clearer. But why is it presumptively better to have less choice in the endgame?


It all depends on how those choices are implemented.

I took New Vegas as an example. Not idly, since its bare-bones structure is similar to ME3's; gather allies/supplies/equipment for the big showdown. You have little choice at the end-game; at best, your skills can ensure you don't have to fight the end boss, or change a handful of things. The thing is, you made all the relevant choices before. You picked a side in the war. You recruited X or Y ally (or killed them off). You ensure this or that asset would be usable (or not). You helped that settlement solve its problems so it fares better in the coming conflict (or you left it a lifeless desert).  You see all that play out during the ending mission, either with your own eyes or via radio. Afterwards, you have detailled slides giving you the fate of each and every community and important character, based on your choices.

Did you have many choices at the last minute of the game? No. Did it make for a more fulfilling ending than ME3? Hell yes, immensely so. Am I holding ME3 to a overly high standard? I think not, since the series was sold on the premise that your choices (all of 'em) mattered. In the end, the only thing that does matter is which shoe-horned bullcrap you accept as the least horrible outcome, with some variance according to an arbitrary number that tracks your performance, rather than your actual choices, across three games (but mostly one, the third).

Another game I mentionned, Deus Ex Human Revolution, did this better methinks. It explains beforehand the ramifications of each ending, with a final monologue that slightly differs based on your behavior during the game. It also doesn't change the conflict at the last bloody minute. It ultimately didn't have much of an incidence on the series, which ending you picked, but that was fully justified by the fact that it was a prequel and they couldn't go crazy with changing established cannon via giving too many details. ME3 has no such excuse, and did its choices far worse than a game that isin't even an RPG. And Deus Ex had more choices, 4.

More choices doesn't make it better, or worse. It's how you present, implement and explain the consequence of them that matters. And ME3's ending fails horribly in that regard. So long as the Catalyst and its associated lunacy stayed, as well as the total lack of player agency from the choices before the ending, whenever the final sequence has 3 choices or 10 doesn't change much. It's still very badly designed. I mean, cripes, one of the endings (Destroy) can potentially even override one of the previous ''important'' choices (Rannoch)! How in the world is that good storytelling in an RPG, especially given how clumsily the death of the Geth is shoe-horned?

TLDR: More doesn't equal good. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. ME3 did it badly.

Modifié par Giantdeathrobot, 18 octobre 2013 - 04:25 .


#59
Skvindt

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...

Another game I mentionned, Deus Ex Human Revolution, did this better methinks. It explains beforehand the ramifications of each ending, with a final monologue that slightly differs based on your behavior during the game. It also doesn't change the conflict at the last bloody minute. It ultimately didn't have much of an incidence on the series, which ending you picked, but that was fully justified by the fact that it was a prequel and they couldn't go crazy with changing established cannon via giving too many details. ME3 has no such excuse, and did its choices far worse than a game that isin't even an RPG. And Deus Ex had more choices, 4.


It works in DE:HR because the whole game builds up towards that choice.

Throughout HR you're pretty much immersed with each side of the augmentation debate. So by the time you reach the end you would of made some sort of opinion on the issue and take a stance on it, which seems natural and doesn't come out of nowhere.

This isn't the case with ME, and the whole synthetic/organic conflict is pretty much resolved symbolically with Rannoch, so when the Catalyst brings up this issue again it's just like 'Huh?  This **** again?'.

#60
spockjedi

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EC was a huge letdown, and after it I was even more disappointed than after the original endings, because I knew that there was no chance of removing the Catalystalin and properly fixing the ending.
The only thing that brought me back to the universe was MEHEM, so perhaps EC wasn't a total failure after all.

#61
Giantdeathrobot

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SRX wrote...


It works in DE:HR because the whole game builds up towards that choice.

Throughout HR you're pretty much immersed with each side of the augmentation debate. So by the time you reach the end you would of made some sort of opinion on the issue and take a stance on it, which seems natural and doesn't come out of nowhere.

This isn't the case with ME, and the whole synthetic/organic conflict is pretty much resolved symbolically with Rannoch, so when the Catalyst brings up this issue again it's just like 'Huh?  This **** again?'.


That, too. Well said.

#62
Clips7

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But they make a significant difference in how we understand Mass Effect on a meta-level. Understanding how the Catalyst was created and what went wrong situates the final confrontation for me: I now understand how the cycles were created and what they mean thematically and philosophically. This is something the original Catalyst conversation failed to convey, because the language used was too vague and impenetrable, and because it failed to situate itself in the history of Mass Effect, coming across as more of 4th Dimension being assessing what the series meant.

I find your points well-argued and thought out, but still disagree in these few respects.



I completely agree with this...i've always thought the endings could've been alot better, but the EC explained everything that was going on in full detail. Everything that fans had questions about was answered....and each of the dialogue branches gave a very detailed and lengthy response to the questions Shepard asked.

#63
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Three choices at the end. Did I need three choices at the end? No. I had waited 5 years. I had made, I'm ashamed to admit 13 Shepards with 13 different possibilities all ready for ME3. Do you know how many hours that was? 5 years. I was waiting for the EPIC ending after killing The Illusive Man. What did we get? Crap. 1300 hours + 50 hours of ME3 (including multiplayer to get the best outcome) only to be told less than five minutes before the end of the game that we had to solve a problem we didn't even know existed. The previous 1350 hours didn't matter.

"Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators, but we found a way to prevent that from happening by harvesting advanced organic life and preserving them in reaper form while leaving the younger ones alone just as we left yours alone the last time we were through. But your being here the first organic ever proves my solution won't work anymore. We find a new solution. We know you want to destroy us. It is in your power to destroy all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic. The reapers will be destroyed, but the peace won't last. Soon your children will build synthetics and the chaos will begin again. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah... Now choose how you want to die and choose the fate of the galaxy." Well sort of the last sentence.

Nothing like a soul sucking end to a story after 5 years and all that pre-game hype. Even after the EC it didn't feel any better. I fully understood the original ending. It was the mysticism that really f***** up everything. I asked the questions in the EC and got stupid pseudophilosophical answers like "Is fire at war when it burns? Is it in conflict? Or is it just doing what it was created to do?" I don't give a damn. If the house is burning, I call the fire department and put out the fire. And I can imagine that your creators didn't approve of being made into the first true reaper. Does this change my opinion? No. Did this explain anything? No. It wasted my time.

By the way, that "boss fight" that was supposed to be against that bad ass Legion guy in New Vegas? I never had it. See I saw where he was and used my "Fat Man" on him before the fight. He was down to a sliver of health. I think Boone shot him.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 octobre 2013 - 05:09 .


#64
Ruadh

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The EC fixed nothing. It had every chance to address the consequences of your decisions but didn't.

You cured the genophage? The EC had a chance to show you that maybe the Krogan kept their word and remained peaceful, maybe they rebelled again. Instead, it shows you that you did indeed cure the genophage. Thats it. Want to know more? Tough.

You made peace on Rannoch? Wondering if the peace lasts? EC shows you did indeed make peace. Thats it.

Wondering what happened to your crew? Forget about it. Did picking destroy truly wipe out all Geth? Speculate. What about Shep? HAHA. Rachni? Nope. Batarians? What. Normandy? Well that got fixed then rode off into a sunset of more questions.

My point being, the EC didn't address the consequences of your decisions, it merely confirmed the decisions you made. All the while creating more plotholes than it fixed. Which leads me to . . .

The evacuation scene. That has to be the most face palm worthy bit of dumbassery in the entire trilogy. I'd go on a big plot hole rant but theres been enough of that already.

#65
dorktainian

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extended cut was damage limitation....and it failed.

it leaves more questions than it answers.

utter garbage imo.

#66
Dean_the_Young

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AlanC9 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first slow-FTL routes will be exploratory in trying to find the next reachable helium planet or drive discharge point, and that's a process that could conceivably take additional decades.  That could even include backtracking months or years if you get stuck in a functional dead-end. You could have stops of days, weeks, or months to set up hasty mining efforts on planets to dig up raw materials for your fabricators and refits after accidents or damage.


I've been plugging this as sequel material for months. 

I've been plugging it for... years now? Since shortly after release, at least.

Wrote a TL;DR outlining how a sequel trilogy based off such a setting (a few hundred years later) could work. Having broken the galaxy apart, a conflict over whether it should reunite, and on what terms, would be fascinating to me.

#67
Excella Gionne

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The EC was needed, it wasn't the best, but at least the endings weren't crap like the originals. If you don't agree with it, delete it....

#68
Atlantis2

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I just finished ME3 and also played the Extended Cut afterward. I have to say that the original ending is better than the Extended Cut.

#69
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I started with the EC (bought the game around June or July this year), but I like the originals more. I'd rather be left with mystery than have even more questions that need to be answered.

Also as high EMS destroy is my preference, the original is better. I don't have to think about the rebuilding efforts by Hackett and the strange fact that Shepard is mentioned in none of it, or that Miranda or Jack as love interests are left staring up in the sky. Was that supposed to cheer us up? It just looks more helpless if they're just standing around. It was better just ending on the breath scene, and not having a whole epilogue.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 01 décembre 2013 - 01:20 .


#70
Rotward

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NeonFlux117 wrote...
Yes. The EC was placating. It was an attempt to polish a turd. But it's still a turd.

My feelings exactly. They fixed the little errors: how your squad got to the normandy, improving final squad relations, etc. Basically, they placated the people who were just upset because the ending didn't focus on the normandy crew. 

That said, I haven't read the massive OP, and I'll edit or post again once I know what the thread is actually about.

#71
Linkenski

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I'm still grateful for EC. It's still bad, but it has shimmers of greatness especially when you pick refuse, until it shows the consequence IMO.

Everything after the Catalyst appears still feels up in the air. It's just so highfalutin and unstable storytelling and especially the fact that they didn't adress the Synthetics vs. Organics versus saving Geth + Quarians to disprove the Catalyst or at least attempt it, sucked balls.

And honestly I could've done without some of the epilogue speeches. Synthesis especially is very sugarcoated and nonsense. "Transcend mortality?" "The greatness that was lost?" Uhh, I'm pretty sure Mac Walters took this one on himself.

But hey... I'm seeing a trend in this thread. Maybe we should launch a "Retake ME3 Original endings" campaign now since so many are like "Hey screw you for giving us what we yelled for 1.5 years ago, but it was better before."

Modifié par Linkenski, 01 décembre 2013 - 01:47 .


#72
dreamgazer

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LOL @ relaunching anything involving "Retake".

#73
Sion1138

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NeonFlux117 wrote...

wow. you lost friends cuz of it???

Lame. Those people need to like, you know, get a life.

I had some friends, not many tho, kinda like the endings or don't agree with IT. But I never got upset about it.


Yeah, like, you know, like yeah.

#74
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I'll join a "retake" original ending movement. lol. I didn't exactly ask for it. The EC already existed when I started.. at the time, I thought it'd just be sensible to download any free DLC.

I wish people who got so stirred up about the endings focused their energy on other faults of the game. Usually people say "It was a great game, up until the last 5 minutes." Which is bullsh!t, as far as I'm concerned. I doubt Bioware even realizes how/when they upset fans at smaller points, since the Ending controversy drowns everything out. At this point, it's impossible to have a productive conversation with them about anything. They've avoided the boards and entire fanbase.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 01 décembre 2013 - 03:38 .


#75
dreamgazer

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StreetMagic wrote...

I wish people who got so stirred up about the endings focused their energy on other faults of the game. Usually people say "It was a great game, up until the last 5 minutes." Which is bullsh!t, as far as I'm concerned.


Agreed. The entire trilogy is flawed in many ways.