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BSN, Let's Talk About... Death


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#1
Fast Jimmy

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Howdy do, BSN.

I'd like to start a conversation about Death.



One of the most amazing thing about video games is the ability to save the day, to fight the good fight, to take arms against a sea of troubles and, by opposing, end them! It introduces an element of excitement or the feeling of being extraordinary. Instead of most of our day-to-day lives where we are... well... ordinary.

But in order to make that feeling of overcoming an obstacle, of being heroic and/or triumphant is challenge, of some sort. It is what makes the player go from feeling like a normal person to a force to be reckoned with. Yet, with that challenge comes the inevitable - what happens when the player, by some degree of measurement, fails? What happens when the hero is no longer superhumanly heroic?

The answer, my friends, is video game Death.


It is a spectre that has haunted every gamer, at one time or another. So how should games approach this abstraction of zero HP? I'm going to touch on three options developers use and, given what we know about DA:I, see if they can be used.

Reload Screen

The bane of every gamer - the most-hated reload screen. Whether this is Nintendo hard, Contra-style "you have no more lives, reload you back to the main menu," the still-brutal "reload before you started this dungeon that took you five hours" or the more prominent and gentle "reload immediately before this fight, just try harder this time," these all bear similar hallmarks. Namely, you didn't make it, but you can take another crack. 

This is, more or less, an abstraction that says "this didn't really ever happen... you didn't die, no one failed, the bad guy didn't win, let's just start over." Which is a logical model to have. Honestly, it would be difficult to even create a scenario where the hero/PC dying DIDN'T result in a Reload Screen of some sort in most cases. 

But, even this can be jazzed up in some cases. For instance, old puzzle adventure games like Sierra had quips, jokes or even hints upon the player's death to lighten things up or help out. Ninja Gaiden, a series heralded for its punishing difficulty, prompts players to turn down the difficulty if too many Reload Screens are encountered by the player. Or, perhaps, the "Break in Case of Emergency" option of "Do you want to skip this fight?" option could be in the Reload Screen as well... with all the somewhat nasty implications that might entail.

To sum it up - many games use the Reload Screen. I'd expect the DA series to continue to not be an exception to that. But perhaps DA:I could look to either include more options, more content or perhaps even more entertainment in these areas, to help the player not feel dejected and consider the option of the developer's dreaded "Rage/Quit," a Game Over/failure from the dev's point of view. After all, if a gamer throws down the controller, turns off your game and never plays it again, they are unlikely to buy future content from you, talk good about your game or have nice things to say. Then again... Dark Souls - my argument is invalid.

The "Swoon"

Perhaps the most unmanly name for dealing with death, the "swoon" refers to a KO, injury, unconscious or other state that reflects diminished or inactive status in combat. These statuses can have a variety of treatments, the most common of which is a campfire or an inn. 

This takes a different road than the Reload Screen, where the PC, party member, etc. is not assumed to be dead, requiring an instant reversion back in time, but instead is just Mostly Dead. AKA, they are weaker or even useless in combat and often quite fragile. The party can struggle on to get them help... or they may even be magically teleported to said inn/place of healing by a plot MacGuffin (Ultima 7 had such a magical ressureciton). 

There are benefits to this approach. First, it never, truly, courts failure. Unlike the Reload Screen, it doesn't say that the approach taken was ever 100% invalid, it just says "well, you paid a price for this, so maybe reconsider your approach next time." Secondly, it circumvents what could be an annoying or even buggy save system on a regular basis - how many of us remeber having dozens of saves at different points in case backtracking in an area was neccessary, or the dreaded "cannot read corrupted file" message appeared? And thirdly - it adds a strategic element to the proceedings. Do you use that injury kit to treat the penalty? Do you take the XP loss to be respawned at the inn? Do you use the Fenix Down the revive the companion with 1 HP and risk them being knocked down right away?

There is, however, one big drawback. Namely, challenge. If a game makes it easy to revive a fallen character or even makes a full party wipe something that just results in everyone coming back at Ye Olde Tavern... is that something that will inspire players to try hard enough to learn the best methods of overcoming obstacles? In addition, does it give plot armor to characters and the player unduly, when everyone else is mortal, these half dozen to a dozen people are above the threat of death? Ask not for whom the bell tolls... because it don't ring for these guys, right?

A problem of perception, definitely. But a problem nonetheless. And one I think DA:I is addressing by having the semi-regenerating health bar, which will refill for a character that falls in combat, but only up to a certain amount. I'm also curious to see if there injuries like in previous DA games and to what degree those will affect the gameplay. Since this is the most likely route of DA:I, I, ironically, have the least amount of suggestions on what to do since it will be simply a matter of degrees in my expectation.

Permadeath

And, so here we are. You. Me. And the big ugly Beholder of an elephant in the room. 

Permadeath.

Even its name is a little intimidating. Well, either that or a 1950's appliance. "The Perm-a-death! You'll be amazed at all the things it can do!"

Sorry... I'm getting off track here.


Permadeath is the permanent and irrevocable death of a character. NOTICE - this is different than being Murder Knifed or Plot Death. Anders could be Murder Knifed at the end of DA2. Duncan is Plot Death'd at Ostagar. They are no more. This is an ex-character. However, this is because the plot demanded it, not because of a result of the player in combat. Permadeath is unscripted and hard to control, since it can literally happen any time a fight happens. This introduces huge problems.

One, people will reload (if the game gives them the option). And be upset that they had to do so. After all, I'm not going to play this game you gave me with these characters you created if I'm going to be missing content because of one of them being dead through a mistake/bad luck. A valid stance to take. I'd be lying if I said I didn't take advantage of the Reload option when Permadeath took a beloved companion. 

Two, the game could possibly not go on AT ALL if Permadeath was used. What would DA:O have looked like if Morrigan died before leaving Lothering (curse you, bears!)? No Dark Ritual, no OGB option, no plot twist in the 11th hour. What would DA2 have looked like if Anders had died against the Qunari? No Chantry boom, no dead Elthina, no Circle uprising. It then leaves the avenue of not having ANY companion be important, which brings all sorts of thorny questions and issues, mostly revolving around making companion characters totally ancillary - something Bioware would not (and I'd argue SHOULD not) do. 

Third... and here's the kicker... Permadeath diminishes death. I know, I know... Fast Jimmy, you are crazy. How could Permadeath, arguably the most realistic depiction of death in video games, DIMINISH death? Because it is nearly impossible to script and, hence, there is no way for the game to react. If, while playing Baldur's Gate, a companion get jibbed, you may have another companion make a randomly generated "NOOOO!!!!" kind of comment... maybe they'd randomly say nothing at all. And that's it. No funeral, no sad scene, no follow-up about how the PC is feeling about it, no discussion about noble sacrifice or worthy death... it's just nothing. 

Now, granted, the player can (and, some purists might say, even SHOULD) head canon all of that instead of the game doing so. Yet I am of the mind that game reactivity should be present in large ways as long as it doesn't directly tread on the toes of the player. And if the game doesn't let characters dying get reflected in some way that is engaging, then it runs the very real risk of trivializing it.


Now... there are some benefits to Permadeath, despite my above postings. And even some things DA:I might be able to apply with the concept of Permadeath, despite the fact that I seriously doubt Bioware would ever consider letting the feature be in their game.

For instance, there could be NPC Permadeath. Missions that are about "keep these people alive" are common in RPGs - Redcliffe is a good example. And, like Redcliffe, there could be the options of NPCs dying and the party surviving. This is a good use of Permadeath - by the actions of the player, NPCs died and that affected dialogue, options and epilgoues for the game. That is a briliantly done move.

In addition, there could be the option of losing a companion for combat only. If, say, Varric fell to the Giant Spider in the Deep Roads, perhaps he couldn't be used in combat anymore, but he could survive. Laid up by the injury, spending his time in the Hanged Man, enjoying dwarven ladies of companionship... fulfilling every plot role he needs to, but not being able to directly engage in combat. That could be a Permadeath of his combat role, but not a Permadeath of his character.

And, lastly, there could be the option of Permadeath endings. These could be useful, especially towards the end of the game. If you fail in combat, or in completing an objective, etc., this could result in the story wrapping up as if your character was dead. Things could fall apart, things could barely skate by, perhaps things could even be better if you died a heroic death. I'm, again, not talking about a Plot Death, like the choices at the end of ME3, but rather a true gameplay, combat death that causes you to fall due to how well you did (or didn't) do.

Conclusion

Video game Death is a constant worry, both for players and devs. And, all too often, sometimes we can all develop tunnel vision for how games should handle this, even to the point where the norms of video games cna flout or even make us forget the concept of what dying really does represent, especially in a struggle against insurmountable odds that we, as gamers, make time and time again.

So what do you think, BSN? What's your thoughts on Death?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .


#2
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Now, granted, the player can (and, some purists might say, even SHOULD) head canon all of that instead of the game doing so.

This.

It's not the game's job to create your character's emotions for you.

And, in a party-based game, I would argue that they're all your characters, even the ones you didn't create.  After all, you get to decide whether Morrigan learns Tempest or Mana Clash - how can that be true if you're not playing her the same way you do the Warden?

As such, there can be drama when death arises from gameplay, because, like every other event in a roleplaying game, it is an opportunity for you to roleplay.

#3
Chanda

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It pisses me off when someone dies that I don't want to lose. Like Carver or Bethany, or Leandra. Or yeah, Duncan or Cailan. Plot deaths suck. But they do help to make the game more realistic. I'll reload if I feel like I messed up with a companion, and that includes death.

#4
Wulfram

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I'm OK with the current approach, really. Permadeath is good for XCOM, but not when the characters are well developed, have a whole bunch of content and are available in a strictly limited number.

Permadeath in BG2 just makes me reload. You could say that increases difficulty, but that's not much of a benefit, since if you want more difficulty you can get that it much simpler ways.

#5
Eternal Phoenix

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Just posting in another legendary Fast Jimmy thread. Don't mind me.

#6
Mathias

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Just as long as Bioware doesn't kill me off again no matter what I do, then everything's cool. If I want to sacrifice myself for the greater good, it should be by my choice, not because the writer wanted to make some desperate attempt to be deep and edgy. That's one of the reasons why I thought the endings to Dragon Age Origins were so well done. When I sacrificed myself in DA:O it was a very emotional moment, but it was my choice and I loved every minute of the ending. When I was forced to kill myself in Mass Effect 3, I felt betrayed and monumentally pissed off. I planned on living in that game.

#7
Magdalena11

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The idea of permadeath affecting companion combat ability but not story ability is intriguing. I don't say I would want to go with this approach and would probably reload anyway but it adds the possibility of story content and "difficult choices." Definitely food for thought.

#8
wright1978

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Wulfram wrote...

I'm OK with the current approach, really. Permadeath is good for XCOM, but not when the characters are well developed, have a whole bunch of content and are available in a strictly limited number.

Permadeath in BG2 just makes me reload. You could say that increases difficulty, but that's not much of a benefit, since if you want more difficulty you can get that it much simpler ways.


Yep don't think permadeath is the way to go.

#9
Tinxa

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I rather like having the option to make stupid decisions in conversations that result in death.

Like talking to a demon and not only having:

"No, I don't believe you"
"Haha, do you take me for a fool?"
"Die, demon"
but also have
"Yes, the fade seems nice. I'll just stay here with you" option even if all you get is "game over" message after you pick it :P

#10
TEWR

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Permadeath is rather problematic in a series like this, where by virtue of traveling with the protagonist the companions are destined for greatness in future events. You have to account for different character states, which then influences world states, and it snowballs from there.

I think, anyway. Seems logical.

It's why I abhor even the option to kill off companions so... casually, like DAO and DAII did. They should only be killed off, in my opinion, when the developers and writers are absolutely certain that this person has filled their role... that their story is complete.

Granted, the option allows for roleplaying capabilities, but it also hinders the story to be told. That said, companions can still react to things like they're their own person. I would just prefer, if they're to be fought at  all, that it be left ambiguous as to their fate.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 octobre 2013 - 10:49 .


#11
Jorji Costava

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's not the game's job to create your character's emotions for you.

And, in a party-based game, I would argue that they're all your characters, even the ones you didn't create.  After all, you get to decide whether Morrigan learns Tempest or Mana Clash - how can that be true if you're not playing her the same way you do the Warden?

As such, there can be drama when death arises from gameplay, because, like every other event in a roleplaying game, it is an opportunity for you to roleplay.


I'd argue that precisely one of the strengths of DAO as compared to say, Mass Effect, is that your companions exhibit a great deal of their own agency as opposed to ME's characters. No matter what, you can't completely 'heal' Morrigan, so to speak; she's going to go off and do her thing no matter what. Sten can question your leadership to the point of violence, Leliana attacks you if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, etc.

It seems to me that you don't control your followers in any deeper sense than you control say, Niko Bellic in GTA IV. Sure, you control which cars he steals, who he shoots, etc., but you don't have control over his character arc; no matter what, he's some dude trying to make a clean break from his past and start life over in a new country. Your NPC followers work pretty much the same way. Otherwise, you should have direct control over whether or not Morrigan thinks the Dark Ritual is a good idea, whether or not Zevran betrays you, etc. Given this, it does seem to behoove the game to provide these characters their emotions in the same way it provides their agendas and goals, which operate largely independent of the player's.

#12
Angrywolves

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Of course there will be game over and resets.
Probably a lot of them in DAI due to lack of healing items/healing magic.
There will probably be some plot deaths like Duncan.
I believe DAI will also have a lot of optional Consequence deaths, deaths not directly caused by the Inquisitor but deaths due to Inquisitor's actions or inactions.
Some due to just choices made, others due to clear player mistakes.
Finally there will be deaths the Inquisitor deliberately causes, but those too can lead to further deaths due to consequences , choices, or outright clearly bad decisions.
DAI will have lots of death in it and the player will be responsible for a lot of it.

#13
Sylvius the Mad

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osbornep wrote...

I'd argue that precisely one of the strengths of DAO as compared to say, Mass Effect, is that your companions exhibit a great deal of their own agency as opposed to ME's characters. No matter what, you can't completely 'heal' Morrigan, so to speak; she's going to go off and do her thing no matter what. Sten can question your leadership to the point of violence, Leliana attacks you if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, etc.

It seems to me that you don't control your followers in any deeper sense than you control say, Niko Bellic in GTA IV. Sure, you control which cars he steals, who he shoots, etc., but you don't have control over his character arc; no matter what, he's some dude trying to make a clean break from his past and start life over in a new country. Your NPC followers work pretty much the same way. Otherwise, you should have direct control over whether or not Morrigan thinks the Dark Ritual is a good idea, whether or not Zevran betrays you, etc. Given this, it does seem to behoove the game to provide these characters their emotions in the same way it provides their agendas and goals, which operate largely independent of the player's.

As soon as I perceive the companions as NPCs rather than characters I control, that's when I stop using companions.

#14
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The sum total of my thoughts on my character's death are that it is best avoided.

#15
KalGerion_Beast

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Keep death the way it currently is.

If anything, maybe go Fable style for casual difficulty and just have your character get knocked out for a few seconds, leaving him with a scar, or something along those line.

#16
Jorji Costava

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As soon as I perceive the companions as NPCs rather than characters I control, that's when I stop using companions.


You'll have to forgive me as this is bound to come across as more glib than I intend (we're all aware of the difficulties with communicating intent via text), but here it goes: This an interesting fact about your play style, but I don't see what it has to do with the argument I was making. Why should the game privilege this particular style of play.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is this: I don't get to decide Morrigan's personality, background, dialogue or long term goals, where as I exercise a sizable degree of control over all these aspects of the Warden. In light of that asymmetry, it's very difficult to view Morrigan as 'my' character in the same sense that the Warden is.

Returning to the topic, I'm pretty much fine with the way DAO handled death. In case any particular party member is dropped to zero HP, you get the 'swoon.' In the event of a TPK, you get kicked out to the reload screen. I also agree with the OP that permadeath should largely be avoided for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

Also, just out of curiosity, I'm wondering what people think about the possibility of non-combat related deaths, or deaths that result from things other than a monster reducing your HP to zero. The old Sierra games had a lot of these, often in completely unexpected places. In Quest for Glory I, you could type "Pick nose"; this would cause your character to attempt to 'open' his nasal passages with the lock pick. If your lockpicking skill was too low, you would die right there from a brain hemorrhage.

I'm not even sure myself if this is a good idea for inclusion in DA, but I'm just curious what people think about things like deaths that result from choosing some bad dialogue options, or from failing to complete a quest on time, etc.

#17
David7204

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I think you're seriously overestimating how much players are bothered by this.

I've never had a problem with a simple system that reloads from a checkpoint upon death, so long as it works and the checkpoints are well done. 

The idea of it being a 'bane' comes across as silly.

Modifié par David7204, 18 octobre 2013 - 12:20 .


#18
Cigne

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Fast Jimmy wrote...


.....there could be the option of losing a companion for combat only. If, say, Varric fell to the Giant Spider in the Deep Roads, perhaps he couldn't be used in combat anymore, but he could survive. Laid up by the injury, spending his time in the Hanged Man, enjoying dwarven ladies of companionship... fulfilling every plot role he needs to, but not being able to directly engage in combat. That could be a Permadeath of his combat role, but not a Permadeath of his character.



This is intriguing; I don't recall ever seeing this suggested before. Though I can see problems; lots of zots, most players (imo) would still just reload when a companion fell...

Still, I hope the devs consider the idea worth discussing among themselves. Heh, if they haven't already done that years ago.^_^

#19
Fast Jimmy

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Now, granted, the player can (and, some purists might say, even SHOULD) head canon all of that instead of the game doing so.

This.

It's not the game's job to create your character's emotions for you.

And, in a party-based game, I would argue that they're all your characters, even the ones you didn't create.  After all, you get to decide whether Morrigan learns Tempest or Mana Clash - how can that be true if you're not playing her the same way you do the Warden?

As such, there can be drama when death arises from gameplay, because, like every other event in a roleplaying game, it is an opportunity for you to roleplay.

Heh. I had a feeling you'd respond to this one. 

I would disagree that characters in your party are your characters, given that they can disapprove of what you say or do outside of your control. If that is the case, then their ability to respond to external stimuli is outside your ability to control as well, which would mean how they would react to a death would be similarly out of your control. In that way, if you don't see these characters act, then they don't. 

#20
Fast Jimmy

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Magdalena11 wrote...

The idea of permadeath affecting companion combat ability but not story ability is intriguing. I don't say I would want to go with this approach and would probably reload anyway but it adds the possibility of story content and "difficult choices." Definitely food for thought.


I was thinking this could result in even possibly different (better?) outcomes in certain circumstances. For instance, say Zevran was in your party in the Inquisition. He falls in combat, making him unable to be used further. However, he then can be used in a spymaster role for the Inquisition, gathering intel and manipulating enemies. 

This results in perhaps this character giving you options or resources that could have a better outcome in the endgame or in a certain mission, or allows for certain items or equipment to be available. Etc. Something that wouldn't even be viewed as a penalty, but simply a permutation. Where people might say "oh, Zevran didn't get disabled for you? It was crazy" just like some people didn't know you could recruit Loghain or kill Fenris in the Gallows. 

Food for thought. 

#21
David7204

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I really, really, really dislike that idea for about half a dozen reasons.

First of all, it's a tremendous sink of resources to fix a mechanic that isn't at all broken. How much dialogue would this take? How many new animations? Putting in entirely new lines of development for the possibility of characters dying is an immense undertaking. On that alone, the answer is no.

Secondly, the likelihood that it would be successful is low. Being incapacitated is a serious issue, and it's very unlikely to be treated as such, simply because the damn story can't be devoted to this. You look at something like Garrus' scars in Mass Effect, and it's touched upon here and there. And that's just cosmetic. How much more would be required for a warrior being crippled to be immersive? Way too much.

Thirdly, this would all too likely crippled gameplay balancing. What happens when all the mages are gone? When all the companions, period are gone? What happens when the AI simply screws up? AI still isn't advanced enough for companion characters to truly handle themselves. Which means no matter how good of a player you are, you'll still inevitably get screwed now and again simply because the dice don't turn up in your favor.

Forthly, I despise the implication that the skill of a character in combat is so inconsequential that it can be discarded with no or trivial effects, as would be the case if the character is alive and carries out all their plot functions but doesn't fight. This is a story built on combat. And what do the characters do? They fight. They kill people.

Fifthly, rewarding the player for failing introduces a great deal of frustrations.

Modifié par David7204, 18 octobre 2013 - 01:30 .


#22
Br3admax

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I'm with David on this too. That seems like an awful idea.

#23
HiroVoid

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Permadeath is fine and can add to a player's personal sense of drama in a game that is contained in itself such as the Fallout series. I know at least for myself I had Dogmeat and Tycho die in FO1 on my playthrough and Sulik in Fallout 2. It doesn't really work out well in a game series meant to be imported later on or games where the character may play an important role later on.

#24
nightscrawl

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Whether this is Nintendo hard, Contra-style "you have no more lives, reload you back to the main menu," the still-brutal "reload before you started this dungeon that took you five hours" or the more prominent and gentle "reload immediately before this fight, just try harder this time," these all bear similar hallmarks. Namely, you didn't make it, but you can take another crack.

Each of these have pros and cons. For the first two, the con is obvious, you lost the time investment of the whole game or the dungeon crawl; the pro is that if you lost the fight because you went in unprepared, have a poor character build, poor party makeup, etc, you have a chance to fix some of that. With the third, the pro is obvious: you aren't harshly penalized for some random error (maybe your game crashed, as STILL happens with DAO, or there is bad party AI), or some stupid mistake you might not have otherwise made; the con is that, lacking any previous save points, you are unable to go back and prepare or change things to make the fight more successful.

In general, I prefer the second choice, and it is the reason I always do a hard save before major events. An autosave before a fight is fine if I just randomly die, or failed to micro manage party movement down to the foot (Corypheus fight). But if I have tried several times and changing out a party member or a spell choice will help, then the second choice is the most beneficial.


... to help the player not feel dejected and consider the option of the developer's dreaded "Rage/Quit," a Game Over/failure from the dev's point of view. After all, if a gamer throws down the controller, turns off your game and never plays it again, they are unlikely to buy future content from you, talk good about your game or have nice things to say.

This was the case for me with NWN2. The final boss fight was in two phases. I couldn't get past the first, even after trying many many times. I eventually did rage/quit and haven't touched the game since. It's still sitting in a box, waiting for me to try again.

#25
Br3admax

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HiroVoid wrote...

Permadeath is fine and can add to a player's personal sense of drama in a game that is contained in itself such as the Fallout series. I know at least for myself I had Dogmeat and Tycho die in FO1 on my playthrough and Sulik in Fallout 2. It doesn't really work out well in a game series meant to be imported later on or games where the character may play an important role later on.

It is not fine in a game that is based around a party system and does not have PCs that can literally take on the world, early on at least.