97 réponses à ce sujet

[L. Han]

I think all ideas are good, it's just about when and where you act on it.

But speaking about "Death" in videogames, I find death and KO's mostly there to create tension or care for characters, creating a form of role play within the player. Also if you have the knowledge that whoever is taking the beating or at risk of "dying" can't actually die (invincible) then you just care less about them.

For example: In Skyrim, if a follower falls down on his/her knees I usually feel obliged to run in and try to save him or her as best I can. Even desperately bashing with my bow or something else that I don't normally do. But if it's an invincible follower then I could not care less if he or she drops on his or her's arse.

[Br3admax]

Rickets wrote...

I think all ideas are good, it's just about when and where you act on it.

But speaking about "Death" in videogames, I find death and KO's mostly there to create tension or care for characters, creating a form of role play within the player. Also if you have the knowledge that whoever is taking the beating or at risk of "dying" can't actually die (invincible) then you just care less about them.

For example: In Skyrim, if a follower falls down on his/her knees I usually feel obliged to run in and try to save him or her as best I can. Even desperately bashing with my bow or something else that I don't normally do. But if it's an invincible follower then I could not care less if he or she drops on his or her's arse.

You do know that all Followers are protected as long as they are with you. Only you can kill them, the envioment, i.e. flames on the ground or traps, count as you. 

[L. Han]

@Br3ad

Trust me, a stray enemy arrow or a dragon using big area shouts can easily kill a weakened follower.

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that if you have the knowledge that a follower, companion, teammate can die permanently EVEN during gameplay it usually would give players a bit more incentive to pay more attention and be more cautious.

[Br3admax]

Rickets wrote...

@Br3ad

Trust me, a stray enemy arrow or a dragon using big area shouts can easily kill a weakened follower.

No it can't. When you tell someone to follow you, the game gives them the same protected status that spouses have. Only you can kill them. 

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that if you have the knowledge that a follower, companion, teammate can die permanently EVEN during gameplay it usually would give players a bit more incentive to pay more attention and be more cautious.

Which doesn't work in a party basesd game. Not one with very indepth characters anyway. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'd argue it's definitely not impossible for permadeath to be well-scripted -- it's just that the growing complexity and costs of dialogue (read: cinematics, voice acting, localisation...) make it increasingly less cost-effective and more time-consuming.

Games with text-based dialogue and no cinematics have a much easier time of it. It's possible for those, but we're talkin' Dragon Age here, so...

I don't see it changing. The more we expect the games to acknowledge companion deaths that have happened via Plot and Dialogue, the fewer we are likely to see except near the very end of the game where there isn't time to reflect on it because of Stuff Happening.

If people want death to be respected, I'd suggest playing a rogue-type game.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm really getting the feeling that people are assuming this thread is completely about permadeath or something.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 octobre 2013 - 02:46 .

[SlottsMachine]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm really getting the feeling that people are assuming this thread is about completely about permadeath or something.

This is the only post I read, so your saying its not? 

[Fast Jimmy]

General Slotts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm really getting the feeling that people are assuming this thread is about completely about permadeath or something.

This is the only post I read, so your saying its not? 

I'd wager there are just shy of ten topics or items of note in my OP, with the idea of traditional Permadeath being just one and also one I dismiss pretty definitively as not being right for a DA game. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

That is not dead which can eternal lie
And with strange aeons even death may die

From an OP with Shakespeare and Poe paraphrases to Lovecraftian quotes! I love it. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm really getting the feeling that people are assuming this thread is completely about permadeath or something.

Personally speaking, I find that aspect of death in cRPGs more interesting to talk about than the rest

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm too tired/drunk to read this now.

However, your first couple of paragraphs are fascinating, and have convinced me to post in it, so that I can use my profile to find it easily in the morning to read it in its entirety. I think I'd like to participate in the discussion you're looking to have.

[Fast Jimmy]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm really getting the feeling that people are assuming this thread is completely about permadeath or something.

Personally speaking, I find that aspect of death in cRPGs more interesting to talk about than the rest

Fair enough. 

I do agree with your point that a cinematic RPG cannot really benefit (and, in fact, may suffer deeply) from a traditional Permadeath solution. However, I did offer three other "variations," shall we say, of the concept of Permadeath. Do you have any input on those?

[Fast Jimmy]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

I'm too tired/drunk to read this now.

However, your first couple of paragraphs are fascinating, and have convinced me to post in it, so that I can use my profile to find it easily in the morning to read it in its entirety. I think I'd like to participate in the discussion you're looking to have.

It will be waiting for you. 

[Dominus]

I read the whole thing. The idea of having a companion incapacitated but still have conversational options would be a clever idea to add. Almost reminds me of Heavy Rain which could have some of your protagonists Imprisoned or otherwise held back from the main storyline if you happened to fail at certain points.

Permadeath endings would be very tricky. The Mass Effect 2 Team made it rather difficult to get the Full Death ending. It's a question of balancing how hard would it be to get such an ending.

As a side note, I would like to point out that there have been other means of death dealing outside of the ones mentioned in your OP. Dark Souls had sort of a checkpoint system - You'd be able to keep your experience...if you could get back to the original spot. However, it's not something that'd feel appropriate for DA, though. They'll probably stick with the Classic Reload System, and I'd prefer it that way. You could argue Planescape: Torment deals with that in interesting ways(and in some cases requires you to die).

Modifié par DominusVita, 18 octobre 2013 - 03:04 .

[Fast Jimmy]

DominusVita wrote...

I read the whole thing. The idea of having a companion incapacitated but still have conversational options would be a clever idea to add. Almost reminds me of Heavy Rain which could have some of your protagonists Imprisoned or otherwise held back from the main storyline if you happened to fail at certain points.

I did like how. Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy let you fail in many things, yet continue on with variations in the game because of it. Not penalties, neccesaarily, just differences. To see an RPG attempt a lofty goal like this would be interesting to me.  

Permadeath endings would be very tricky. The Mass Effect 2 Team made it rather difficult to get the Full Death ending. It's a question of balancing how hard would it be to get such an ending.

 

Agreed. They wouldn't even be required to be in-depth as the more "standard" endings. But something that could exist. My mind is drawn to scenes in Crono Trigger when you lose when you weren't supposed to and the screen shows Lavos destroying the Earth, with the screen saying "But the world refused to change..." Nothing as detailed as the credits-rolling, ends-tied-up other endings, but a non-standard game over screen, for sure.

 As a side note, I would like to point out that there have been other means of death dealing outside of the ones mentioned in your OP. Dark Souls had sort of a checkpoint system - You'd be able to keep your experience...if you could get back to the original spot. However, it's not something that'd feel appropriate for DA, though. They'll probably stick with the Classic Reload System, and I'd prefer it that way. You could argue Planescape: Torment deals with that in interesting ways(and in some cases requires you to die).

I didn't mean to give the impression that this was an exhaustive list, just A list. Sorry about that. Although I would like to see more context-sensitive Reload Screens if possible. And also curious to see how the injury system and health regen systems will work when a companion falls.

Thanks for reading and responding! 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 18 octobre 2013 - 03:14 .

[crimzontearz]

Death works fine the way it does now in DA and ME (minus the forced protagonist death for artistic integrity).

If permadeath was EVER implemented I would GLADLY save spam the hell out of the game and store saves on SEVERAL DIFFERENT offline media with multiple copies of each spammed save as well as cloud saves while playing the game offline to circumvent the situation.

So yeah....**** that

[Fast Jimmy]

crimzontearz wrote...

Death works fine the way it does now in DA and ME (minus the forced protagonist death for artistic integrity).

If permadeath was EVER implemented I would GLADLY save spam the hell out of the game and store saves on SEVERAL DIFFERENT offline media with multiple copies of each spammed save as well as cloud saves while playing the game offline to circumvent the situation.

So yeah....**** that

<sigh> Should I re-title this thread to say "NOT ABOUT PERMADEATH" in the subject line?

[Medhia Nox]

@Wulfram: Not really very relevant, but I just felt the impulse to say that I actually get more angry when my X-com characters die than I ever have with a CRPG NPC.

Current NPCs are totally irrelevant to the plot - ALL my X-com characters matter and may lead to my total loss of the game.

====

Modern gamers prefer win/win situations... so, I'd prefer if they dropped the pretense of death.

Failure should result in story line alteration - not death.

You can't stop the invasion of Redcliff? Story line alteration.
Can't defeat Uldred? Story line alteration.

That would make me care about what I'm doing.

If not that - then just make everything a win, because you will... eventually. The deception is only self.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Wulfram: Not really very relevant, but I just felt the impulse to say that I actually get more angry when my X-com characters die than I ever have with a CRPG NPC.

Current NPCs are totally irrelevant to the plot - ALL my X-com characters matter and may lead to my total loss of the game.

====

Modern gamers prefer win/win situations... so, I'd prefer if they dropped the pretense of death.

Failure should result in story line alteration - not death.

You can't stop the invasion of Redcliff? Story line alteration.
Can't defeat Uldred? Story line alteration.

That would make me care about what I'm doing.

If not that - then just make everything a win, because you will... eventually. The deception is only self.

Far, far too many variables to be remotely practical, sadly. Sure, everything can be a win eventually... in X-Com as well, if you just reload over your people dying.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To sum it up - many games use the Reload Screen. I'd expect the DA series to continue to not be an exception to that. But perhaps DA:I could look to either include more options, more content or perhaps even more entertainment in these areas, to help the player not feel dejected and consider the option of the developer's dreaded "Rage/Quit," a Game Over/failure from the dev's point of view. After all, if a gamer throws down the controller, turns off your game and never plays it again, they are unlikely to buy future content from you, talk good about your game or have nice things to say. Then again... Dark Souls - my argument is invalid.

I think a little blurb on "how your quest failed" would be nifty. It can be just like a short epilogue screen, so not zot heavy, but it's a cool counterfactual that underscores how important the protagonist is to the world. 

Or it can troll you with "And Varric had to save the day. Again. <_<"

There are benefits to this approach. First, it never, truly, courts failure. Unlike the Reload Screen, it doesn't say that the approach taken was ever 100% invalid, it just says "well, you paid a price for this, so maybe reconsider your approach next time." Secondly, it circumvents what could be an annoying or even buggy save system on a regular basis - how many of us remeber having dozens of saves at different points in case backtracking in an area was neccessary, or the dreaded "cannot read corrupted file" message appeared? And thirdly - it adds a strategic element to the proceedings. Do you use that injury kit to treat the penalty? Do you take the XP loss to be respawned at the inn? Do you use the Fenix Down the revive the companion with 1 HP and risk them being knocked down right away?

I think people will still pick "reload before the encounter to redo the encounter" instead of all the other penalties. Unless I missed a feature that gets that out of the way?

One, people will reload (if the game gives them the option). And be upset that they had to do so. After all, I'm not going to play this game you gave me with these characters you created if I'm going to be missing content because of one of them being dead through a mistake/bad luck. A valid stance to take. I'd be lying if I said I didn't take advantage of the Reload option when Permadeath took a beloved companion.

I think the the best way to think about the problem is that it basically collapses the spectrum that comes up with your "swoon" point I mentioned above. There are people who might want to tolerate an injury as a price for failure... but not a dead companion. All those people who want a penalty for failing in combat now get punished *much more* than they like, so they hate the feature a great deal.

Two, the game could possibly not go on AT ALL if Permadeath was used. What would DA:O have looked like if Morrigan died before leaving Lothering (curse you, bears!)? No Dark Ritual, no OGB option, no plot twist in the 11th hour. What would DA2 have looked like if Anders had died against the Qunari? No Chantry boom, no dead Elthina, no Circle uprising. It then leaves the avenue of not having ANY companion be important, which brings all sorts of thorny questions and issues, mostly revolving around making companion characters totally ancillary - something Bioware would not (and I'd argue SHOULD not) do.  

That just sounds like it turns the game into an scort mission. 

Third... and here's the kicker... Permadeath diminishes death. I know, I know... Fast Jimmy, you are crazy. How could Permadeath, arguably the most realistic depiction of death in video games, DIMINISH death? Because it is nearly impossible to script and, hence, there is no way for the game to react. If, while playing Baldur's Gate, a companion get jibbed, you may have another companion make a randomly generated "NOOOO!!!!" kind of comment... maybe they'd randomly say nothing at all. And that's it. No funeral, no sad scene, no follow-up about how the PC is feeling about it, no discussion about noble sacrifice or worthy death... it's just nothing.  

I think the short way of putting it is that permadeath (at minimum) in a save import problem in a game by itself. Because suddenly Bioware would have to implement so many things to meaningfully portray death at different points that they'd turn the game into a grief-simulator if they were doing it justice.

Now, granted, the player can (and, some purists might say, even SHOULD) head canon all of that instead of the game doing so. Yet I am of the mind that game reactivity should be present in large ways as long as it doesn't directly tread on the toes of the player. And if the game doesn't let characters dying get reflected in some way that is engaging, then it runs the very real risk of trivializing it.

That just turns characters into objects. In XCOM, I don't cry for the characters - I cry for the loot and levels I lost. I have no connection to the characters other than as objects. If there was a technology that would bring their shambling corpses back with their loot, I would be completely indifferent between that and what we started with.

For instance, there could be NPC Permadeath. Missions that are about "keep these people alive" are common in RPGs - Redcliffe is a good example. And, like Redcliffe, there could be the options of NPCs dying and the party surviving. This is a good use of Permadeath - by the actions of the player, NPCs died and that affected dialogue, options and epilgoues for the game. That is a briliantly done move.

That's really more of an escort mission that's good an out for failing it. Which is good design, I totally agree, but I wouldn't say it's permadeath.

In addition, there could be the option of losing a companion for combat only. If, say, Varric fell to the Giant Spider in the Deep Roads, perhaps he couldn't be used in combat anymore, but he could survive. Laid up by the injury, spending his time in the Hanged Man, enjoying dwarven ladies of companionship... fulfilling every plot role he needs to, but not being able to directly engage in combat. That could be a Permadeath of his combat role, but not a Permadeath of his character.

Fire Emblem Awakening does this for certain characters. I don't really see how this couldn't just lead to the game being unplayable, though, if you lose too many characters. And it still introduces the same problem actual death introduces: the death is so punitive that many people would want to to reload, and the people caught in the middle would be annoying by being forced into extremes. 
 

And, lastly, there could be the option of Permadeath endings. These could be useful, especially towards the end of the game. If you fail in combat, or in completing an objective, etc., this could result in the story wrapping up as if your character was dead. Things could fall apart, things could barely skate by, perhaps things could even be better if you died a heroic death. I'm, again, not talking about a Plot Death, like the choices at the end of ME3, but rather a true gameplay, combat death that causes you to fall due to how well you did (or didn't) do.

That goes to the reload screen alone, no? Basically, the epilogue idea I mentioned above?

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: I play Ironman mode in X-com - because I'm better than those who don't.

Not really...

Well, okay, yeah really.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 18 octobre 2013 - 03:46 .

[myahele]

Maybe perma death can be added to extreme difficulty? There wont be any storyline changes, they'll just not be in the party anymore. Kinda like how you can get rid of companions in dao