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Why are those who choose Control and Synthesis so much happier with the ending?


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#551
Xilizhra

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Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Inherently, no. They may well be killed in battle, depending on circumstances, but I won't kill the helpless. And I won't kill someone if there's an alternative.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2013 - 09:06 .


#552
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Abomination aesthetic functions by reinforcing the belief that nothing but destroying them is productive. It is a matter of using the right tools for a desired effect. It is clear the writers wanted people to consider alternatives, and the abomination aesthetic was counterproductive to that. With a different appearance, many people would not be quite as determined to consider nothing but destroying them.


Wasn't there a quote somewhere by a writer saying the reapers weren't supposed to have any redeeming features? That you were just supposed to want to hate them , want to kill them and not sympathise with them?

Yeah encouraging that hatred for 99% of the game was a huge blunder if we were supposed to consider "alternatives" right at the last second.  What they did, what they are and even what they LOOK LIKE (as you said something devoid of humanity) is just so repulsive and evil! Bioware did a great job framing them as an enemy that needed to be destroyed at all costs. But then I'm expected to...talk to it's leader and...consider NOT killing them???? Wha? It's like control. You KILL Tim over the very issue but then were supposed to consider control moments after? Even though it was framed as the "bad guy choice" for most of the game!?

That's just another big reason why the endings were just so ridiculous to me. If you want us to consider control, DON'T make the one guy supporting it an indoctrinated wacko that shepard constantly says is WRONG. If you want us to consider the human race bonding and living in harmony with husks, cannibals and banshees...make it so the player reaction to them isn't just "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!".



But that's what we do in war: we dehumanize our enemy. We make up non-human names for them. We draw grotesque faces of them. We do this so it is easier to kill them. 

Now I can hear the complaints... if they hadn't made them into monsters and kept them as people in different uniforms instead, people would have complained this had become a 3rd person Call of Duty in space. I still think that would have been better.

That was Mac Walters who said that: "You're supposed to feel like the reapers don't have any redeeming features."

Then in the end you're given three choices, and the one that destroys the reapers wipes out all your civilization's technology sending it back to practically the start of the industrial age. Now remember your planet's resources from that era are pretty much depleted, but we're not supposed to think about that. Here is a list of what has been destroyed by the reapers:

the infrastructure is destroyed or very severely damaged
the power grid is destroyed or very severely damaged
your manufacturing base is destroyed
technology you depend on is destroyed

So realistically there's no way for it to recover: , , , what are you going to use for fuel to pump water, then there's agriculture, and food distribution, not to mention the disease. Oh the humanitarian crisis is just beginning. We're supposed to be angry and shoot that tube.

Congratulations: The galactic powers just went from first world to fourth world overnight. You have a population on Earth now of about 10 billion down from 11 billion. In another month, it'll be down to about 8 billion, and in another year around 3 or 4 billion, maybe as low as 2 billion. Don't worry, though, you've got vorcha living here now. They'll eat the remains and breed and breed and breed. :?

The Asari? Their colonies like Nevos and some others that surrendered outright will fare the best. The reapers spared the infrastructure.

#553
Xilizhra

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Abomination aesthetic functions by reinforcing the belief that nothing but destroying them is productive. It is a matter of using the right tools for a desired effect. It is clear the writers wanted people to consider alternatives, and the abomination aesthetic was counterproductive to that. With a different appearance, many people would not be quite as determined to consider nothing but destroying them.


Wasn't there a quote somewhere by a writer saying the reapers weren't supposed to have any redeeming features? That you were just supposed to want to hate them , want to kill them and not sympathise with them?

Yeah encouraging that hatred for 99% of the game was a huge blunder if we were supposed to consider "alternatives" right at the last second.  What they did, what they are and even what they LOOK LIKE (as you said something devoid of humanity) is just so repulsive and evil! Bioware did a great job framing them as an enemy that needed to be destroyed at all costs. But then I'm expected to...talk to it's leader and...consider NOT killing them???? Wha? It's like control. You KILL Tim over the very issue but then were supposed to consider control moments after? Even though it was framed as the "bad guy choice" for most of the game!?

That's just another big reason why the endings were just so ridiculous to me. If you want us to consider control, DON'T make the one guy supporting it an indoctrinated wacko that shepard constantly says is WRONG. If you want us to consider the human race bonding and living in harmony with husks, cannibals and banshees...make it so the player reaction to them isn't just "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!".



But that's what we do in war: we dehumanize our enemy. We make up non-human names for them. We draw grotesque faces of them. We do this so it is easier to kill them. 

Now I can hear the complaints... if they hadn't made them into monsters and kept them as people in different uniforms instead, people would have complained this had become a 3rd person Call of Duty in space. I still think that would have been better.

That was Mac Walters who said that: "You're supposed to feel like the reapers don't have any redeeming features."

Then in the end you're given three choices, and the one that destroys the reapers wipes out all your civilization's technology sending it back to practically the start of the industrial age. Now remember your planet's resources from that era are pretty much depleted, but we're not supposed to think about that. Here is a list of what has been destroyed by the reapers:

the infrastructure is destroyed or very severely damaged
the power grid is destroyed or very severely damaged
your manufacturing base is destroyed
technology you depend on is destroyed

So realistically there's no way for it to recover: , , , what are you going to use for fuel to pump water, then there's agriculture, and food distribution, not to mention the disease. Oh the humanitarian crisis is just beginning. We're supposed to be angry and shoot that tube.

Congratulations: The galactic powers just went from first world to fourth world overnight. You have a population on Earth now of about 10 billion down from 11 billion. In another month, it'll be down to about 8 billion, and in another year around 3 or 4 billion, maybe as low as 2 billion. Don't worry, though, you've got vorcha living here now. They'll eat the remains and breed and breed and breed. :?

The Asari? Their colonies like Nevos and some others that surrendered outright will fare the best. The reapers spared the infrastructure.

Another benefit of Control: you can use the Reapers to do a lot of recovery work, even more than just fixing the relays.

#554
Sir DeLoria

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Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Inherently, no. They may well be killed in battle, depending on circumstances, but I won't kill the helpless. And I won't kill someone if there's an alternative.

But the Reapers aren't helpless, the Destroy ending ensures their death in battle. Even if they were helpless, capital punishment is sometimes necessary. 

#555
Xilizhra

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Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Inherently, no. They may well be killed in battle, depending on circumstances, but I won't kill the helpless. And I won't kill someone if there's an alternative.

But the Reapers aren't helpless, the Destroy ending ensures their death in battle. Even if they were helpless, capital punishment is sometimes necessary. 

I'm not in favor of capital punishment, and the Reapers are better used elsewhere.

#556
Sir DeLoria

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Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

But the Reapers aren't helpless, the Destroy ending ensures their death in battle. Even if they were helpless, capital punishment is sometimes necessary. 

I'm not in favor of capital punishment, and the Reapers are better used elsewhere.


I believe the Weimar Republic had the right principle of capital punishment. Death sentence only in the most extreme of cases(e.g. mass murder). 

Though tbh, enslaving the Reapers is far more evil than killing them. There are worse things than death.

#557
Xilizhra

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Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

But the Reapers aren't helpless, the Destroy ending ensures their death in battle. Even if they were helpless, capital punishment is sometimes necessary. 

I'm not in favor of capital punishment, and the Reapers are better used elsewhere.


I believe the Weimar Republic had the right principle of capital punishment. Death sentence only in the most extreme of cases(e.g. mass murder). 

Though tbh, enslaving the Reapers is far more evil than killing them. There are worse things than death.

I'm certainly considering Synthesis, don't get me wrong.

#558
AresKeith

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Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Inherently, no. They may well be killed in battle, depending on circumstances, but I won't kill the helpless. And I won't kill someone if there's an alternative.


Interesting...

#559
Obadiah

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Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Godwin's Law proves itself once again.

#560
Deathsaurer

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Let's review something real quick. The Catalyst would rather be destroyed than continue the harvest. The Catalyst would rather be "enslaved" (yes it still exists in Control, it specifically says we will be yours to do with as you see fit) than continue the harvest. It gets mad if you won't pick something, these options included. To it both have more value than the harvest. Clearly neither can be condemned in that light. Arguing about which is right and which is wrong is silly.

#561
Mr.House

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Xilizhra wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra
wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless
civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves
death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Inherently,
no. They may well be killed in battle, depending on circumstances, but I
won't kill the helpless. And I won't kill someone if there's an
alternative.

 What :mellow:

Modifié par Mr.House, 20 octobre 2013 - 09:30 .


#562
Cainhurst Crow

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Why don't we just send the reapers to cybertron and force them to revive it?

#563
Sir DeLoria

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Obadiah wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Godwin's Law proves itself once again.


Oh, the n*zis don't have to be the subject of my comment, the stalinists, maoists and khmer rouge work just as well.

#564
Deathsaurer

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why don't we just send the reapers to cybertron and force them to revive it?


I'm not sure Primus would be happy to see them.

#565
AlanC9

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Abomination aesthetic functions by reinforcing the belief that nothing but destroying them is productive. It is a matter of using the right tools for a desired effect. It is clear the writers wanted people to consider alternatives, and the abomination aesthetic was counterproductive to that. With a different appearance, many people would not be quite as determined to consider nothing but destroying them.


I suppose this might have actually worked well if the intent was to make the player think that destroying everything Reaper-aligned was right and proper, only to definitively find out he'd been on the wrong side. all along. Dark Energy plot?

#566
Obadiah

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Necanor wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you spare the Reapers? They butchered countless civilizations in the most gruesome ways imaginable. If anyone derves death it's them.

Ah, but I don't consider anyone to deserve death.


So Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengele, Himmler, Goebbels and Heydrich all wouldn't deserve death? Interesting.

Godwin's Law proves itself once again.


Oh, the n*zis don't have to be the subject of my comment, the stalinists, maoists and khmer rouge work just as well.

Too late. What has been said cannot be unsaid.

#567
Mr.House

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Except it's not hypoerbole, which was the point of Godwins law.

#568
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I thought mentioning Goebbels was a nice touch.

#569
Deathsaurer

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AlanC9 wrote...

I suppose this might have actually worked well if the intent was to make the player think that destroying everything Reaper-aligned was right and proper, only to definitively find out he'd been on the wrong side. all along. Dark Energy plot?


I hate that idea because it makes then unequivocally right and absurdly arrogant for thinking they'd find a solution before all that tech they left around screwed everyone over. No thanks...

#570
AlanC9

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Deathsaurer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I suppose this might have actually worked well if the intent was to make the player think that destroying everything Reaper-aligned was right and proper, only to definitively find out he'd been on the wrong side. all along. Dark Energy plot?


I hate that idea because it makes then unequivocally right and absurdly arrogant for thinking they'd find a solution before all that tech they left around screwed everyone over. No thanks...


Good thing Bio abandoned that plot.

#571
Cainhurst Crow

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Deathsaurer wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why don't we just send the reapers to cybertron and force them to revive it?


I'm not sure Primus would be happy to see them.


What? They'll be fine. It's not like they'll all turn into unicron or something.

#572
Mr.House

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why don't we just send the reapers to cybertron and force them to revive it?


I'm not sure Primus would be happy to see them.


What? They'll be fine. It's not like they'll all turn into unicron or something.

How dare you compare reapers to the mighty Unicron!

#573
Br3admax

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Make love not war, friends.

#574
Br3admax

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Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Abomination aesthetic functions by reinforcing the belief that nothing but destroying them is productive. It is a matter of using the right tools for a desired effect. It is clear the writers wanted people to consider alternatives, and the abomination aesthetic was counterproductive to that. With a different appearance, many people would not be quite as determined to consider nothing but destroying them.


Wasn't there a quote somewhere by a writer saying the reapers weren't supposed to have any redeeming features? That you were just supposed to want to hate them , want to kill them and not sympathise with them?

Yeah encouraging that hatred for 99% of the game was a huge blunder if we were supposed to consider "alternatives" right at the last second.  What they did, what they are and even what they LOOK LIKE (as you said something devoid of humanity) is just so repulsive and evil! Bioware did a great job framing them as an enemy that needed to be destroyed at all costs. But then I'm expected to...talk to it's leader and...consider NOT killing them???? Wha? It's like control. You KILL Tim over the very issue but then were supposed to consider control moments after? Even though it was framed as the "bad guy choice" for most of the game!?

That's just another big reason why the endings were just so ridiculous to me. If you want us to consider control, DON'T make the one guy supporting it an indoctrinated wacko that shepard constantly says is WRONG. If you want us to consider the human race bonding and living in harmony with husks, cannibals and banshees...make it so the player reaction to them isn't just "KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!".



But that's what we do in war: we dehumanize our enemy. We make up non-human names for them. We draw grotesque faces of them. We do this so it is easier to kill them. 

Now I can hear the complaints... if they hadn't made them into monsters and kept them as people in different uniforms instead, people would have complained this had become a 3rd person Call of Duty in space. I still think that would have been better.

That was Mac Walters who said that: "You're supposed to feel like the reapers don't have any redeeming features."

Then in the end you're given three choices, and the one that destroys the reapers wipes out all your civilization's technology sending it back to practically the start of the industrial age. Now remember your planet's resources from that era are pretty much depleted, but we're not supposed to think about that. Here is a list of what has been destroyed by the reapers:

the infrastructure is destroyed or very severely damaged
the power grid is destroyed or very severely damaged
your manufacturing base is destroyed
technology you depend on is destroyed

So realistically there's no way for it to recover: , , , what are you going to use for fuel to pump water, then there's agriculture, and food distribution, not to mention the disease. Oh the humanitarian crisis is just beginning. We're supposed to be angry and shoot that tube.

Congratulations: The galactic powers just went from first world to fourth world overnight. You have a population on Earth now of about 10 billion down from 11 billion. In another month, it'll be down to about 8 billion, and in another year around 3 or 4 billion, maybe as low as 2 billion. Don't worry, though, you've got vorcha living here now. They'll eat the remains and breed and breed and breed. :?

The Asari? Their colonies like Nevos and some others that surrendered outright will fare the best. The reapers spared the infrastructure.

Another benefit of Control: you can use the Reapers to do a lot of recovery work, even more than just fixing the relays.

What happened to realising them from slavary? 

#575
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Br3ad wrote...

Make love not war, friends.


Good idea for the real world, but I don't want it in my escapist entertainment. I'm less violent than I'll ever be, as long as I have games to occupy myself with. :wizard: