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[Astartes Marine]

Xilizhra wrote...
Would it be presumptuous of me to hope that you're not doing so based on the horrific dystopia mentioned in your name/avatar/signature?

My sig leads to a blog entry where I outlined a rough idea of my ideal Control post-credits situation.  I don't think it leads to a dystopia.


Now the actual W40K Imperium...yeah that's pretty brutal...if you're not a human.  If you are a human then it's only somewhat brutal.

[Xilizhra]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Would it be presumptuous of me to hope that you're not doing so based on the horrific dystopia mentioned in your name/avatar/signature?

My sig leads to a blog entry where I outlined a rough idea of my ideal Control post-credits situation.  I don't think it leads to a dystopia.


Now the actual W40K Imperium...yeah that's pretty brutal...if you're not a human.  If you are a human then it's only somewhat brutal.

Funny. If Horus had won the Heresy, Chaos would actually be finished now.

Also, I've decided that it's not quite my Shepard's place to control everything, and have gone for Synthesis. No more slavery.

[Br3admax]

How exactly to you enslave a robot, considering it was built with this sole function? In fact, how do you enslave a robot period? They are made to perform a service. They have no higher function.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

How exactly to you enslave a robot, considering it was built with this sole function? In fact, how do you enslave a robot period? They are made to perform a service. They have no higher function.

It depends on whether or not they have the capacity for sapience. If not, then it's not a problem. If they do, then it is.

[Astartes Marine]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, I've decided that it's not quite my Shepard's place to control everything, and have gone for Synthesis. No more slavery.

Yeah normally I'm the one who would say that line about absolute power corrupting absolutely...but since Shepard in my opinion seems to be one of the increasingly few people in ME that has their head screwed on right if anyone should sit in the big chair it should be them.  Best chances for not getting everyone killed and all that.

Xilizhra wrote...
It depends on whether or not they have the capacity for sapience. If not, then it's not a problem. If they do, then it is.

And you're probably one of the very few people who would actually be concerned with whether the Reapers can dream or not. 

[Br3admax]

What kind of problem? It's a robot. It is made to serve a purpose and nothing more. It isn't alive anymore than imitation turkey is actual turkey. It's parts and pieces belong to someone and were manufactured. It is in no way comparable to an actual living being.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah normally I'm the one who would say that line about absolute power corrupting absolutely...but since Shepard in my opinion seems to be one of the increasingly few people in ME that has their head screwed on right if anyone should sit in the big chair it should be them. Best chances for not getting everyone killed and all that.

I suspect that the stupidity virus will fade once the game turns off. I don't think you need to worry that much.

And you're probably one of the very few people who would actually be concerned with whether the Reapers can dream or not.

Freedom is, after all, the right of all sapient beings.

What kind of problem? It's a
robot. It is made to serve a purpose and nothing more. It isn't alive
anymore than imitation turkey is actual turkey. It's parts and pieces
belong to someone and were manufactured. It is in no way comparable to
an actual living being.

Must I break out my analogy again?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:10 .

[Br3admax]

Sure. Tell me how many of my body parts were made by a company somewhere. Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait while you compile a list or until you reach the mantle. Whichever happens first.

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Sure. Tell me how many of my body parts were made by a company somewhere. Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait while you compile a list or until you reach the mantle. Whichever happens first.

I personally don't know if you possess any prosthetics, but that's irrelevant in any case. The origin of a body's parts do not matter at all if said body has achieved sapience.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Sure. Tell me how many of my body parts were made by a company somewhere. Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait while you compile a list or until you reach the mantle. Whichever happens first.

I personally don't know if you possess any prosthetics, but that's irrelevant in any case. The origin of a body's parts do not matter at all if said body has achieved sapience.

I have none, and that is completely relevant to the point, because bodies do not "achieve sapience." And the individual parts are not made to make a person. It was made to serve actual people. And it certainly does matter to that ass of an analogy you wanted to use. 

[Xilizhra]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Sure. Tell me how many of my body parts were made by a company somewhere. Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait while you compile a list or until you reach the mantle. Whichever happens first.

I personally don't know if you possess any prosthetics, but that's irrelevant in any case. The origin of a body's parts do not matter at all if said body has achieved sapience.

I have none, and that is completely relevant to the point, because bodies do not "achieve sapience." And the individual parts are not made to make a person. It was made to serve actual people. And it certainly does matter to that ass of an analogy you wanted to use. 

The geth did, in this case. It's less likely IRL, but it could happen. If so, they have the same rights to bodily autonomy and the like that any human would. My analogy stands, and that doesn't change just because you're conveniently on the empowered side at this point in history.

[Astartes Marine]

Xilizhra wrote...
I suspect that the stupidity virus will fade once the game turns off. I don't think you need to worry that much.

In reality I don't worry, doesn't change that Shepard is the best person for the job or at least one of the best.

Xilizhra wrote...
Freedom is, after all, the right of all sapient beings.

...Ouch that's below the belt.  Using Optimus Prime against me, althouth Optimus said "sentient" not sapient. 

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:37 .

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Sure. Tell me how many of my body parts were made by a company somewhere. Go ahead. I'll sit here and wait while you compile a list or until you reach the mantle. Whichever happens first.

I personally don't know if you possess any prosthetics, but that's irrelevant in any case. The origin of a body's parts do not matter at all if said body has achieved sapience.

I have none, and that is completely relevant to the point, because bodies do not "achieve sapience." And the individual parts are not made to make a person. It was made to serve actual people. And it certainly does matter to that ass of an analogy you wanted to use. 

The geth did, in this case. It's less likely IRL, but it could happen. If so, they have the same rights to bodily autonomy and the like that any human would. My analogy stands, and that doesn't change just because you're conveniently on the empowered side at this point in history.

"Empowered?" Seriously, whoever educated you on anything should be barred from teaching ever again. 

One, and let me be clear, a human building a robot and saying it has no rights is in no way comparabe to a human going to another human and saying they have no rights. Robots are not humans. Black people are. Seriously, this is without a doubt the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard from anyone, and I've been reading BSN for years. Second, the Geth were made networked together, they didn't achieve anything and none of them were intelligent enough to be called sapient. They aren't true AI until ME3, as shown in ME3, just another reason why the consensus is complete bull. Third, my birth has nothing to do with convience, I didn't conviently become more human, nor did any of my ancestors, some of which were whiter than snow, but there you go again, making assumptions about nonsense. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:47 .

[PwrdOff]

I don't see how anyone could bring themselves to pick Control unless they were RP-ing some power hungry full Renegade ******. On the other hand, the explosions are a lovely shade of blue.

Modifié par BNN999, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:45 .

[Br3admax]

Blank. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:45 .

[SwobyJ]

BNN999 wrote...

I don't see how anyone could bring themselves to pick Control unless they were RP-ing some power hungry full Renegade ******. On the other hand, the explosions are a lovely shade of blue.

Many more Paragon oriented players try to headcanon/imagine rebuilding the relays and being a belevolent-Reaper-AI leader that takes the Reapers into a larger form of the Geth self-imposed 'exile' to take time to become better 'people'.
Or variations of that.

Seeing that Paragon is often oriented around having others see the errors of their ways (for better or worse).

[PwrdOff]

SwobyJ wrote...

Many more Paragon oriented players try to headcanon/imagine rebuilding the relays and being a belevolent-Reaper-AI leader that takes the Reapers into a larger form of the Geth self-imposed 'exile' to take time to become better 'people'.
Or variations of that.

Seeing that Paragon is often oriented around having others see the errors of their ways (for better or worse).

I suppose it all depends on how much control you directly assume over the Reapers.  Do they just follow you as pawns the same way they served the Catalyst, or are they following you willingly because you released them from that control?

[Obadiah]

Br3ad wrote...
...
Second, the Geth were made networked together, they didn't achieve anything and none of them were intelligent enough to be called sapient. They aren't true AI until ME3, as shown in ME3, just another reason why the consensus is complete bull.
...

The Geth gained enough intelligence to ask about their own existence, and rebel. How is that not Artificial Intelligence? So what if they're a network intelligence without an "actualized personality" that gains intelligence different to us.

[SwobyJ]

BNN999 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Many more Paragon oriented players try to headcanon/imagine rebuilding the relays and being a belevolent-Reaper-AI leader that takes the Reapers into a larger form of the Geth self-imposed 'exile' to take time to become better 'people'.
Or variations of that.

Seeing that Paragon is often oriented around having others see the errors of their ways (for better or worse).

I suppose it all depends on how much control you directly assume over the Reapers.  Do they just follow you as pawns the same way they served the Catalyst, or are they following you willingly because you released them from that control?

I think the idea, if we take the story literally, is that the Catalyst-Godchild just hung around and sent the guiding principles to its Reaper-Dark-Angels. It didn't direct exact actions. Still no real clue on why it would wait and not open the Citadel immediately to the Reapers in ME1, eh.

So anyway, a God-Shep would basically go "The Cycle is over, rebuild the societies and leave them alone." and the rest is up to Reapers, being sufficiently pacified by the new direction.

I personally can barely believe this. Almost everything leading up to the ending, to me, suggested that the Reapers are actually very individual without anything like the Catalyst controlling them. A lot of this strains belief with me, pushing me to seek alternate theories about what this weird ghost boy actually is. lol

[FlyingSquirrel]

Also, as an anti-Destroy person, I have to say that I doubt the notion that EDI or the geth could be "rebuilt."

Could you create something very much like them? Sure. Could you perhaps recover their memories and reinstall them into new platforms? Maybe. But are you actually recreating the same individuals that previously existed? That, to me, is a much more problematic notion. Suppose you could somehow take every memory and thought that the deceased Geth Platform A ever had and install them into Geth Platform B. But if that's possible, then you could probably do the same thing without Geth Platform A dying in the first place. They'd both be walking around alive, and they'd both have the same thoughts and memories up to the point where the replication was done, but they would not share the same consciousness. So why would things be any different simply because Geth Platform A happens to be dead?

To put it another way: if Legion does indeed have a soul, and someone managed to rebuild Legion and recover all the memories that were distinctly "his" before he died, would the same soul necessarily inhabit the rebuilt Legion?

[Xilizhra]

"Empowered?" Seriously, whoever educated you on anything should barred from teaching ever again.

Empowered as compared to hypothetically rightless AIs.

Robtos are not humans. Black people are.

Hmmm. So your definition of nonpersonhood would also extend to organic aliens?

Second, the Geth were made networked together, they didn't achieve anything and none of them were intelligent enough to be called sapient. They aren't true AI until ME3, as shown in ME3, just another reason why the consensus is complete bull.

And yet they are AI as a collective.

Third, my birth has nothing to do with convience, I didn't conviently become more human, nor did any of my ancestors, some of which were whiter than snow, but there you go again, making assumptions about nonsense.

The convenient part is that it's easy to deny others personhood when you don't feel at risk of having it be revoked yourself.

[SwobyJ]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Also, as an anti-Destroy person, I have to say that I doubt the notion that EDI or the geth could be "rebuilt."

Could you create something very much like them? Sure. Could you perhaps recover their memories and reinstall them into new platforms? Maybe. But are you actually recreating the same individuals that previously existed? That, to me, is a much more problematic notion. Suppose you could somehow take every memory and thought that the deceased Geth Platform A ever had and install them into Geth Platform B. But if that's possible, then you could probably do the same thing without Geth Platform A dying in the first place. They'd both be walking around alive, and they'd both have the same thoughts and memories up to the point where the replication was done, but they would not share the same consciousness. So why would things be any different simply because Geth Platform A happens to be dead?

To put it another way: if Legion does indeed have a soul, and someone managed to rebuild Legion and recover all the memories that were distinctly "his" before he died, would the same soul necessarily inhabit the rebuilt Legion?

Flashback to ME2.

If Shepard does indeed have a soul, and someone managed to rebuild Shepard and recover all the memories that were disctinctly "his" before he died, would the same soul necessarily inhabit the rebuilt Shepard? 

I think this question is deliberately placed in the series. Is what we play really the original Shepard, or an expensive copy?
And is it still 'Shepard'? Well, our allies by the end of ME3 like to assure us that yes, we're really really Shepard, no matter what happened.

I dunno about you, but I'd try an immediate Lazurus Project on EDI's code, and assist the Quarians in recovering as many Geth programs as possible, in my headcanon. And I'll treat them just the same as I did before.

Anyway, Extended Cut kinda changed things for me for HIGH EMS.

"All synthetics will be targeted" (doesn't say they'll be killed, semantics)

"Even you are partially synthetic" (but doesn't Shepard take a breath and is implied to live? What's the Catalyst getting at?)

"Your Crucible device seems to be largely intact - however, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive will have little difficulty in repairing the damage." (does he mean 'those who survive' to be Geth who survive? By 'will be affected' does he mean just 'affected' or 'destroyed'? Or does he just mean the mass relays etc?)

"There will still be losses, but no more than what has already been lost." (does this mean only a few losses, not extinction of synthetics?)

I know that we don't see Geth in the ending, yet nothing the Catalyst says in this version of the ending actually states that Geth and EDI will be killed. It's much lighter, compared to pre-EC, when on High EMS Destroy.
And at least *allows me to headcanon* for now that EDI and the Geth were only shut down for a time, but not utterly destroyed. In Low EMS, sure, maybe not.

EDIT: To be clear, Extended Cut shows EDI on the Memorial Wall. As such, I generally assume she's gone. I'm just exploring other possibilities.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:03 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I will bring up the inconvenient existence of the ship that contains an entire planet full of people who uploaded themselves into an AI construct on a spaceship 8000 years ago because their sun was about to go supernova IIRC. These are the virtual aliens who made contact with the Council to secure a new power source. There are about a billion minds in that virtual world. These people also will be extinguished in destroy.

"You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want, including the Geth." - it was more definitive in the Original Ending. The writers of the EC felt that was "too strong" and threw some saccharine on it. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic. So it will hit all synthetic life, meaning all AIs will be toast. You are partly synthetic, was to inform you of that fact that your synthetic parts like your eyes may cease to function. 

You will suffer losses but no more than you have already suffered. This is relative. How have your losses been since the start of the war? Light? Heavy? I think pretty heavy. You are going to suffer a lot more. A lot of the technology upon which your civilization depends will be destroyed -- is this your synthetic base like your Virtual Intelligence? Many of your computer systems? Your cybernetic implants and those that your people have? For some civilzations like the Turians and Asari and Salarians and even the Quarians this could be devastating. The Krogan? Not so much. They live like primitives already. Get used to it.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:19 .

[KaiserShep]

SwobyJ wrote...

Flashback to ME2.

If Shepard does indeed have a soul, and someone managed to rebuild Shepard and recover all the memories that were disctinctly "his" before he died, would the same soul necessarily inhabit the rebuilt Shepard? 

I think this question is deliberately placed in the series. Is what we play really the original Shepard, or an expensive copy?
And is it still 'Shepard'? Well, our allies by the end of ME3 like to assure us that yes, we're really really Shepard, no matter what happened.

I dunno about you, but I'd try an immediate Lazurus Project on EDI's code, and assist the Quarians in recovering as many Geth programs as possible, in my headcanon. And I'll treat them just the same as I did before.

Anyway, Extended Cut kinda changed things for me for HIGH EMS.

"All synthetics will be targeted" (doesn't say they'll be killed, semantics)

"Even you are partially synthetic" (but doesn't Shepard take a breath and is implied to live? What's the Catalyst getting at?)

"Your Crucible device seems to be largely intact - however, the effects of the blast will not be constrained to the Reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive will have little difficulty in repairing the damage." (does he mean 'those who survive' to be Geth who survive? By 'will be affected' does he mean just 'affected' or 'destroyed'? Or does he just mean the mass relays etc?)

"There will still be losses, but no more than what has already been lost." (does this mean only a few losses, not extinction of synthetics?)

I know that we don't see Geth in the ending, yet nothing the Catalyst says in this version of the ending actually states that Geth and EDI will be killed. It's much lighter, compared to pre-EC, when on High EMS Destroy.
And at least *allows me to headcanon* for now that EDI and the Geth were only shut down for a time, but not utterly destroyed. In Low EMS, sure, maybe not.

EDIT: To be clear, Extended Cut shows EDI on the Memorial Wall. As such, I generally assume she's gone. I'm just exploring other possibilities.

This has always been problematic for me, because the logistics of it get pretty scrambled up if you put any kind of thought into it. EDI's box is targeted, yet the computer systems in the Normandy are obviously intact. The quarians envirosuits have geth programs installed to boost their immune systems, so are the geth installations deleted? The quarians obviously survive the ordeal so we know that the hardware is still working. It's one of those things you have to blindly accept rather than think about. As for Shepard being partly synthetic, that pretty much amounted to a throwaway line that went nowhere. There was no real point to mention it, any more than it would matter that Garrus also has cybernetics in his face.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:24 .

[AlanC9]

Xilizhra wrote...

Robtos are not humans. Black people are.

Hmmm. So your definition of nonpersonhood would also extend to organic aliens?

Wow --- I really didn't think he was going to just walk into that one.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .