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[Obadiah]

@SwobyJ

Control-freakishness is irrelevant. The point is that in ME universe the Catalyst is correct: because of the nature of the conflict (Organics need to control AI Synthetics to improve themselves) unlike a normal conflict about resources, there is no possible peace to be had, and there will be an inevitable destruction of Organics by Synthetics without some kind of intervention.

There will always be people like Admiral Xen who will think, no matter how much the AI protest or plead or demonstrate their rights to exist, that they have none. Legion said it in ME2 at Tali's trial, "When the Creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time." Conflict is inevitable.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Xilizhra]

AIs are again, not alive, and even considering if they were something that even existed why should something that has been made from someone's other inanimate objects somehow be entitled to something? If my laptop suddenly became alive, I would not feel compasion for it.

I find your viewpoint literally incomprehensible, making no more sense than someone who said that someone's personhood should be defined by bloodline or some other arbitrary origin of their physical makeup.

Technical details of Synthesis aside, I think it's just odd for thematic reasons. The theme is the only part I care to debate. I think it's already been said a hundred times before (a million times even), but I think it brings a funny close to the story if Shep ends up succumbing to something similar Saren's original plan. Shep's story through the whole series seems to be about uniting people, despite their differences, all in the hopes of stopping the Reapers. Saren wanted to unite people as well (be it Krogan, Geth, Beneziah and her entourage, Fist... and even extended his hand to Shepard) all in the hopes of uniting with the Reapers (rather than stopping them). If you started ME1 playing as Saren, it'd make some sense to finally reach Synthesis, but it's strange doing it as Shep. All the efforts and dialogue (afaik) up to the final moment never seemed to be about uniting with Reapers. Why the sudden change of heart? Because the Catalyst says it's good? Even if it is, it doesn't make sense to embrace a revolutionary idea like that right away. I mean, it takes some time to work your ways towards a big idea. At least for me it does. And Saren had time. Shep doesn't. It's a leap of faith for Shep to switch priorities like that (you could say a literal leap of faith.. one which he gets disintegrated with).

Synthesis is basically the final piece of uniting people despite their differences, and is in fact the final piece of sealing said unity not only against the Reapers, but whatever may lie beyond. And, as a bonus, pacifies the Reapers (so if Garrus' statement is accurate, Shepard should be made a saint).

[essarr71]

Ill take the occasional Admiral Xen and diplomacy over giant synthetic overlords keeping the "peace".

[Sir DeLoria]

essarr71 wrote...

Ill take the occasional Admiral Xen and diplomacy over giant synthetic overlords keeping the "peace".

I for one would like to see more of Admiral Xen. She has the right idea about the Geth, unlike that whiny suit-wetter Koris.

[shodiswe]

Necanor wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Ill take the occasional Admiral Xen and diplomacy over giant synthetic overlords keeping the "peace".

I for one would like to see more of Admiral Xen. She has the right idea about the Geth, unlike that whiny suit-wetter Koris.

Koris is the only Quarian Admiral that doesn't sound like a complete idiot or fool, he seems to be in touch with how people feel and work, he's a man of the people. Which is why he's so imporant if you want to make peace and/or keep the civilian fleet safe.

Tali isn't that bad either but she does come across as somewhat spineless to me.

Xen seems more like a crazy psychopath scientist with no scruples who doesn't care about people what so ever... I tend to let her salvage the tech from the Geth dreadnaught though and let the Quarians in the lifepods die.. We need war assets for the Crusible, right? I don't think saving the pods gives anything. The people in the pods were likely dead already.

Modifié par shodiswe, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:54 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Control-freakishness is irrelevant. The point is that in ME universe the Catalyst is correct: because of the nature of the conflict (Organics need to control AI Synthetics to improve themselves) unlike a normal conflict about resources, there is no possible peace to be had

That's the central point though - this claim is unproven; all we have is Catalyst's word for it.
In particular, if that claim was true, then choosing Destroy or Control should logically lead to a game-over screen (Strike Suit Zero style)

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:58 .

[General TSAR]

And now we are back to talking about Toasters vs. Pale three fingered Humans  

shodiswe wrote...
Koris is the only Quarian Admiral that doesn't sound like a complete idiot or fool, he seems to be in touch with how people feel and work, he's a man of the people. 

"Toaster apologist spotted at 12:00!"

Which is why he's so imporant if you want to make peace and/or keep the civilian fleet safe.

Screw Peace, Victory or Death aganist Skynet.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

AIs are again, not alive, and even considering if they were something that even existed why should something that has been made from someone's other inanimate objects somehow be entitled to something? If my laptop suddenly became alive, I would not feel compasion for it.

I find your viewpoint literally incomprehensible, making no more sense than someone who said that someone's personhood should be defined by bloodline or some other arbitrary origin of their physical makeup.

This is not surprisng coming from someone who would kill for hypothetical robots who will never exist and would kill because they will never exist. I don't expect you to get anything. 

[shodiswe]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Control-freakishness is irrelevant. The point is that in ME universe the Catalyst is correct: because of the nature of the conflict (Organics need to control AI Synthetics to improve themselves) unlike a normal conflict about resources, there is no possible peace to be had

That's the central point though - this claim is unproven; all we have is Catalyst's word for it.

Doesn't really matter, Control ends the war and saves everyone on the Citadel and restores the relays. Things can go back to normal and Shepard isn't interested in the Catalysts crazy ideas, the Catalyst is gone for ever.

Whatever the Catalyst belived doesn't matter, you don't do it for the Catalyst, you do it for the people of the Galaxy to end the Harvest and save lives.
Least that's my reasoning behind control.

Modifié par shodiswe, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:57 .

[shodiswe]

General TSAR wrote...

And now we are back to talking about Toasters vs. Pale three fingered Humans  

shodiswe wrote...
Koris is the only Quarian Admiral that doesn't sound like a complete idiot or fool, he seems to be in touch with how people feel and work, he's a man of the people. 

"Toaster apologist spotted at 12:00!"

Which is why he's so imporant if you want to make peace and/or keep the civilian fleet safe.

Screw Peace, Victory or Death aganist Skynet.

You must love eternal war and death. Each has their own preference I guess.

Modifié par shodiswe, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:00 .

[General TSAR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis is basically the final piece of uniting people despite their differences,

Wrong yet again.

[Ieldra]

shodiswe wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Control-freakishness is irrelevant. The point is that in ME universe the Catalyst is correct: because of the nature of the conflict (Organics need to control AI Synthetics to improve themselves) unlike a normal conflict about resources, there is no possible peace to be had

That's the central point though - this claim is unproven; all we have is Catalyst's word for it.

Doesn't really matter, Control ends the war and saves everyone on the Citadel and restores the relays. Things can go back to normal and Shepard isn't interested in the Catalysts crazy ideas, the Catalyst is gone for ever.

Whatever the Catalyst belived doesn't matter, you don't do it for the Catalyst, you do it for the people of the Galaxy to end the Harvest and save lives.
Least that's my reasoning behind control.

Indeed. Belief in the Catalyst's rationale for the cycle is not required. The outcomes of your decision can be seen as desirable or not independently. It's still an unpleasant gamble though, since you are dependent on the Catalyst for an accurate description of the outcome. That in the end, trust or mistrust doesn't matter because it's the only game in town doesn't make it feel better.

[FlyingSquirrel]

SwobyJ wrote...
Flashback to ME2.

If Shepard does indeed have a soul, and someone managed to rebuild Shepard and recover all the memories that were disctinctly "his" before he died, would the same soul necessarily inhabit the rebuilt Shepard? 

I think this question is deliberately placed in the series. Is what we play really the original Shepard, or an expensive copy?
And is it still 'Shepard'? Well, our allies by the end of ME3 like to assure us that yes, we're really really Shepard, no matter what happened.

I remember Ashley, at least, saying "I don't know what you are" at the start of ME3, but I can't remember if she later specifically recants that or just sort of drops it.

Though I have to say I don't find the games' arguments entirely convincing on this point. For one thing, there seems to be considerable ambiguity over whether Shepard is in a coma, or the equivalent of a hospital patient flatlining, or more decisively dead. If it's the latter - Shepard was decisively dead - I'd say it's at least questionable whether Shepard's soul would return to that body, or generally whether it is the same consciousness that was there before.

This is one of several reasons why I think Bioware would have been better off not structuring ME2 around Cerberus. Shepard's "death" opens a big can of worms but mainly serves as a pretext to place Shepard with Cerberus, and Cerberus itself seemed like mostly a pretext for bringing in some shadier characters and exploring some of the more disturbing aspects of the ME universe. But they probably could have done that by just making it a very quiet, off-the-books Spectre mission where the Council and Alliance aren't willing to assign too many of their top operatives and send Shepard off to recruit Jack, Thane, Grunt, etc.

[Obadiah]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Control-freakishness is irrelevant. The point is that in ME universe the Catalyst is correct: because of the nature of the conflict (Organics need to control AI Synthetics to improve themselves) unlike a normal conflict about resources, there is no possible peace to be had

That's the central point though - this claim is unproven; all we have is Catalyst's word for it.
In particular, if that claim was true, then choosing Destroy or Control should logically lead to a game-over screen (Strike Suit Zero style)

See my post on the previous page for evidence from the Geth and Quarian conflict.

[shodiswe]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know one area where I was shown that I needed AI, except (ironically) to fight the Reapers in ME2. EDI's speed was useful at the Collector Ship and things like that. But without a Collector/Reaper threat, what exactly is challenging organics so much that they need AI?

I don't think that's the issue though. In general there is this belief that organics got a magical or mysterious thing called a  soul that transcends the material existance. It's derived from several different religious ideas and observations that once a person die they change and become a lifeless corpse.
Something was lost.
It's a similar reasoning as the old idea that an object like wood that can burn must contain the element of fire. An object that's heavy contains the element of rock or stone or whatever. mix the two and you got wood.... Or something like that.

As for AI's, I belive technology in the future will become an extension of the human existance where the borders blur. Luch like Synthesis. I don't think Catalyst or crusible or Reapers will be needed for that.
It's hard for people to imagine at this point in time but it will snakup on people and it will be gradual, it wont be liek the Borg or skynet or something that forces itself on people, people will pickit up and use it and eventualy it will be taken for granted just like campfires, steampowered engeins, electricity, lightbulbs, Televisions and computers.

Unless ofcourse we create a monster along the way because of our own corrupt nature, but if that happens then it will be our own doing and not a law of nature or somethign that is inevitable.

Modifié par shodiswe, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:11 .

[General TSAR]

shodiswe wrote...

You must love eternal war and death. Each has their own preference I guess.

Eternal nothing, if only the stupid Quarians had the ability to deliver a decisive and absolutely devastating blow against the walking toasters with rifles early in the war then they would not have suffered a 99% genocide and would not have lost their home system and colonies.

They are stupid for creating the Geth and they are even more stupid for not creating a safeguard aganist the prospect of the drones suffering a malfunction and rising up.

Thankfully Oleg Shep is more than happy of helping them correct their mistake (in exchange for some of their colonies for future human expansion).

Modifié par General TSAR, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:14 .

[shodiswe]

General TSAR wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

You must love eternal war and death. Each has their own preference I guess.

Eternal nothing, If only the stupid Quarians had the ability to deliver a decisive and absolutely devastating blow against the walking toasters with rifles early in the war then they would not have suffered a 99% genocide and would not have lost their home system and colonies.

They are stupid for creating the Geth and they are even more stupid for not creating a safeguard aganist the prospect of the drones suffering a malfunction and rising up.

They likely had "safeguards", but they lacked the understanding of what they were dealing with. Life, and life finds a way.

Modifié par shodiswe, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:13 .

[IllusiveManJr]

Seemed more cheery maybe?

[General TSAR]

shodiswe wrote...
 Life, and life finds a way.

Life? HA!  Nothing more than crippling glitchs in their software; a toaster is not alive and neither is an AI.

The Geth are malfunctioning equipment they have been decommissioned.

Modifié par General TSAR, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:18 .

[Steelcan]

shodiswe wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

You must love eternal war and death. Each has their own preference I guess.

Eternal nothing, If only the stupid Quarians had the ability to deliver a decisive and absolutely devastating blow against the walking toasters with rifles early in the war then they would not have suffered a 99% genocide and would not have lost their home system and colonies.

They are stupid for creating the Geth and they are even more stupid for not creating a safeguard aganist the prospect of the drones suffering a malfunction and rising up.

They likely had "safeguards", but they lacked the understanding of what they were dealing with. Life, and life finds a way.

Someone didn't read all of Jurrasic Park and what happened to those guys....

[AlexMBrennan]

They likely had "safeguards", but they lacked the understanding of what they were dealing with. Life, and life finds a way.

Given that they were too dumb to try "running away" until 99% of them were dead I highly doubt that they were smart enough to have thought to include safeguards of any kind.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .

[Steelcan]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They likely had "safeguards", but they lacked the understanding of what they were dealing with. Life, and life finds a way.

Given that they were too dumb to try "running away" until 99% of them were dead I highly doubt that they were smart enough to have thought to include safeguards of any kind.

A.  the war lasted less than a year, most people can't just up and move and they didn't have the time to do so.
B.  running away was probably what a lot of quarians did, the geth probbably just hunted them down, they only had doubts when every last quarian was together.