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[Obadiah]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Do soldiers not carry sidearms in ME? You know, like all of Shepard's henchmen (including Ash, Kaidan and Vega) do? Maybe draw that?

Did you not see that, in the video, when the husk jumped on the soldier, he was firing then lost his sidearm? The scene is linked in on the image I posted.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 octobre 2013 - 09:09 .

[Redbelle]

Obadiah wrote...

*Shrug* Dunno. What do soldiers normally do when an energy wave washes over them, and their enemy falls off to the side and just sorta looks at them stunned. I'd think the prudent thing would be keep your eyes on your enemy and brace for another attack because turning around and looking for stuff might put you at a fatal disadvantage.

But hey, I don't know, I guess you guys, and that "trained" and totally-not-recent-and-inexperienced soldier, know more about that than me.

This scene has always bothered me on account that both parties, the husk and soldier..... just stop.

I cannot fathom what is going through each's head.

The husk should be trying to kill the solider because that's what husks are made to do. They are the reanimated corpses of people that have been reanimated with an objective. The length of time they are braindead to go through the process while their entire body is rewritten leads me to postulate that they have no higher brain functions. They aer, at best, roving search and destroy platforms.

The Reapers control them..... So a change in orders fro the Reapers couild conceivably be the cause of them holding off....... but then what of the solider?

If the soldier has been changed in the same way as the Reaper husk...... I see two possibilities..... 1. The soldier is unaffected by the wave except for morphological changes to his DNA..... 2. The soldier received the same instruction as the husk not to attack.

I think 2 is more reasonable to assume on account that both demonstrate different behaviour after the change. The husk is easy to explain away..... bu the soldier's sudden change in how he treats the husk by not attempting any action to safe guard his life in the presence of a being that was moments ago trying to kill him.......

Well, there is a third option..... The radical changes to their body exhausted both momentarily...... But since that's never shown to be the case, I still think there's some mind and/or perception alteration going on that the Cat never let on about.

[Deathsaurer]

You know he doesn't try to shoot the Husk in Control either. The Reapers suddenly retreating makes it kinda obvious the conflict is over for now.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Redbelle wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...
All I saw was two individuals hell bent on destroying and surviving..... Then they choose not to after the wave.....

I don't fully understand why this is..... The husk is a programmed killng machine repurposed by Nanites.

The soldier has no reason to think that the husk won't kill him under the circumstances..... unless after the wave hit there was a mental change in their thought process.

The husk was about to win, then it gets up and stops fighting, looking confused. Just like that. The soldier was wounded and confused as well. I don't see anything that requires a mental change to be plausible.

So here's the picture......

A soldier is about to get ripped apart by a husk and then boom..... the wave hits.....

The soldier goes down, and when he looks up..... The husk is also down......

Why does he not shoot him?

The solider knows nothing about the conversation that took place on the Citadel. He was just in a fight or die situation where he was about to die. Then he see's a reprieve in that the Reaper is down and instead of thinking.... Here's my chance to stop this thing from killing me. (Because he has no notion that the Husk will not kill him), he looks up, forgetting his role as a soldier in a battlefront, and just peers at it.

Why would he take the time to look at it. Before he was fighting for his life. After the wave, there is nothing to suggest that the husk will be docile. The weapon should have come up the moment he saw the husk and he should have shot it. Because what soldier would give the enemy an opening to kill him?

The only reason I can come up with is that there is a change in his thought process. His hind brain is no longer triggering his survival instinct. It's like both of them got doped. The adrenaline comes off. The contextual situational awareness from when the husk was about to rip the solider apart no longer applies......

Coming out of the scene from a player perspective... It's as if those two watched the Cat and Shepard have their talk and just went along with it.

Going back into the scene..... the prime question..... What force/action/POV made them stop fighting? Remains.

Just getting green eye's and circuit board skin is no reason not to continue attacking each other. Something else must have happened to the two. That they just stopped because they are confused is no answer in this situation. They are enemies with no knowledge of event's the player has.

Which leads to another question..... why in synthesis are the husked forces of the Reapers airbrushed out? What happened to them? Their absence paints a potentially disturbing graphic image that they have been disposed of.

After all...... What's a husk but an empty shell? Could they live a life? Is there anything left inside them that would allow them to go forth? Or are they simply empty shells that no longer want to kill?

If that is the ase, then still..... that solider should be slapped and told that the next time he hesitates in front of an enemy, it'll be the last thing he does.

These are things about the ending that make my head hurt and I had a migraine yesterday that was one of my worst. I don't want a repeat. I don't have a problem witht he concept of synthesis. The problem I have is with Bioware's presentation of it. It is one facepalm after another. The concept is quite complex. They tried to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator. When they did that it just absolutely ruined the ending. 

* We found out five minutes before the end of the game that Sovereign was trolling you about being independent and that it was just a tool, war machine, and storage unit for genetic material. They were just machines controlled by Starbrat. They were his solution.

* We just learned five minutes before the end of the game that the entire thing was about preventing us from building some super synthetic that would wipe out all organic life.

* We just learned that we could destroy them and take our chances but that the little guy knew that eventually we'd do it and build the big bad; try to do a better job than him; or go with synthesis and end the cycle permanently.

Synthesis isn't supposed to change us that radically. The reapers stop reaping because there's nothing to reap. You gotta hand it to the kid, he got rid of the problem. He can take his vacation to the Caymans and be done with it. And the reapers are now helping out fixing up the mess they made, which is better than what they were doing, right? And also their archived genetic material becomes activated and conscious and shares that knowledge with you. Not such a bad thing there. We still have the tech, which is good, right, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. 

I think the circuit boards and glowing green eyes are part of the dumbing down to the lowest common denominator to make sure we got that something happened. However in the process of doing that things get messed up. How do we show the reapers stop fighting immediately, and show a process of something happening that could take months in a few seconds, thus making the whole thing space magic.

Quarians and Turians still can't eat human food, and vice versa. It'll give you really nasty cramps. Remember that olestra stuff back in the 1990s they tried on potato chips? Kinda like that except worse.

Now I know you're asking about the zombies. See this is where I think Bioware really went off the deep end in the first place. If they hadn't made the zombies, but made them just regular "controlled" Turian, Human, Asari, Krogan troops, they could go back to being not controlled anymore and reintegrate into society once their control chips were removed. 

In that scene you mentioned, they stopped attacking each other because of reasons. If you want to know why they stopped attacking each other, I'll tell you. See, you can look up U2 Kush on the Internet. That wave contain heavy ganja smoke and that why they stop fighting. 

But since there are zombies, I don't see a process of dezombification going on, unless they have some secret process they're not talking about. Maybe what we thought were zombies really weren't zombies after all? 

[Deathsaurer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Maybe what we thought were zombies really weren't zombies after all? 

Awakened Collectors? Thanks for that squick Montreal...

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...

I cannot fathom what is going through each's head.

The husk should be trying to kill the solider because that's what husks are made to do. They are the reanimated corpses of people that have been reanimated with an objective. The length of time they are braindead to go through the process while their entire body is rewritten leads me to postulate that they have no higher brain functions. They aer, at best, roving search and destroy platforms.

The Reapers control them..... So a change in orders fro the Reapers couild conceivably be the cause of them holding off....... but then what of the solider?

Are you suggesting that the Reaper is ordering the husk to look at the humans and then look at the departing  Reapers? It also looks confused to me, though obviously that is somewhat subjective.

I think your postulate is just wrong.

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

I cannot fathom what is going through each's head.

The husk should be trying to kill the solider because that's what husks are made to do. They are the reanimated corpses of people that have been reanimated with an objective. The length of time they are braindead to go through the process while their entire body is rewritten leads me to postulate that they have no higher brain functions. They aer, at best, roving search and destroy platforms.

The Reapers control them..... So a change in orders fro the Reapers couild conceivably be the cause of them holding off....... but then what of the solider?

Are you suggesting that the Reaper is ordering the husk to look at the humans and then look at the departing  Reapers? It also looks confused to me, though obviously that is somewhat subjective.

I think your postulate is just wrong.

No.

I don't thnk the Reaper's dictate the husks individual actions.... I think the Reapers control the process by which the husk chooses it actions.

If the Reapers tell it to guard an area it'll attack everything that comes within range.

If the Reaper tell it to not attack anything it'll stand around being docile

The husks have a ertain degree of autonomy as having to direct the individual actions of hundreds of thousands of husks with be difficult and ultimately, a waste of time when the Reaper can simply be told to Guard. Attack. Hold. Idle.

By this logic. A Reaper can tell a husk to attck, and the husk will attack in the best way it sees. It will traverse obstacles based on it choosing the best path to reach a target.

Then, if the Reapers tell it to stop attacking, it will.

Modifié par Redbelle, 26 octobre 2013 - 11:53 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But the human? Ganja I tell you.

[Deathsaurer]

Well think about it. Suddenly you hear millions of voices in your head and the Reapers run away. I'd be dumbfounded too.

Husk: What do you mean I'm on my own?

Reaper: Did I stutter?

Soldier: Why do I hear this?

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...
The husks have a ertain degree of autonomy as having to direct the individual actions of hundreds of thousands of husks with be difficult and ultimately, a waste of time when the Reaper can simply be told to Guard. Attack. Hold. Idle.

By this logic. A Reaper can tell a husk to attck, and the husk will attack in the best way it sees. It will traverse obstacles based on it choosing the best path to reach a target.

Then, if the Reapers tell it to stop attacking, it will.

So by "no higher brain functions" you meant just nothing over, say, dog-level intelligence? Or maybe rat-level?

OK. I still don't think it's a correct reading of the scene, but stated this way it isn't crazy.

[General TSAR]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Well think about it. Suddenly you hear millions of voices in your head

That's a fate worse than death. 

[Obadiah]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...
The husks have a ertain degree of autonomy as having to direct the individual actions of hundreds of thousands of husks with be difficult and ultimately, a waste of time when the Reaper can simply be told to Guard. Attack. Hold. Idle.

By this logic. A Reaper can tell a husk to attck, and the husk will attack in the best way it sees. It will traverse obstacles based on it choosing the best path to reach a target.

Then, if the Reapers tell it to stop attacking, it will.

So by "no higher brain functions" you meant just nothing over, say, dog-level intelligence? Or maybe rat-level?

OK. I still don't think it's a correct reading of the scene, but stated this way it isn't crazy.

That might be the case. It may also be the case that, like the scientists on the dead Reaper in ME2, the husks are forced into a collective mind with the Reaper that directs or overpowers them. Like Husk Saren was to Sovereign, and EVA is to EDI Normandy, the husks may be, at least in part, extensions of the Reaper.

That's the way I interpretted the Control ending, because the camera zoomed out from Shepard to Reapers repairing the broken Relay (and not the Citadel) - the Reapers and husks may all be in a collective like the Geth.

Modifié par Obadiah, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:29 .

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...
The husks have a ertain degree of autonomy as having to direct the individual actions of hundreds of thousands of husks with be difficult and ultimately, a waste of time when the Reaper can simply be told to Guard. Attack. Hold. Idle.

By this logic. A Reaper can tell a husk to attck, and the husk will attack in the best way it sees. It will traverse obstacles based on it choosing the best path to reach a target.

Then, if the Reapers tell it to stop attacking, it will.

So by "no higher brain functions" you meant just nothing over, say, dog-level intelligence? Or maybe rat-level?

OK. I still don't think it's a correct reading of the scene, but stated this way it isn't crazy.

On the assumption that all husks are fairly equal they'd need to be a bit more intelligent than that. Marauders need to know how to reload their guns and they take cover at any rate. The codex claims banshees to be quite intelligent, not that they ever do anything clever.

[Vigilant111]

OP: Destroy costs the highest yet it made Shepard a hypocrite by way of annihilating all synthetic life, no other has done so apart from the reapers themselves. The seemingly straight-forward option is plagued by moral dilemma, portrayed as a return of organic supremacy that spells doom for the future.

The EMS requirements also implied that choosing destroy (or control) is thematically incorrect as synthesis wins the contest when the Catalyst (and the EMS meter) juxtaposes the three options.

Also, paragon players who chose destroy have not been sufficiently provided for when the choice was assigned renegade colors, it served to mark a contradiction in their respective characters.

Simply put, many players that chose destroy felt they have not been appropriately rewarded when compared to those who chose control and synthesis.

[NeonFlux117]

Control is the means of survival. It is obvious that control is the best.

Keep your friends close. And your enemies closer.

It's very Machiavellian. And therefore the most strategically sound choice.

Plus, Shepard has a destiny. Shepard is just fulfilling that destiny when choosing control or synthesis. In either one; he is assuming the mantel of protector of the galaxy or he is taking the strength of synthetics and organics and making it into one DNA. The strengths of both. The weaknesses of neither.

Control and synthesis are clearly the best and the intended choices for Shepard.

They're both. Perfect.

[ghost9191]

@Vigilant111

they did the same color bs with ME2 though and most were fine with that, at least from what i recall

@Neonflx117

subjective and apparently pro fatalism

machiavellian stands for more than just "strategically sound"



@OP 

personally it seems a bit more simple for why the majority of those who pick control and synthesis are ok with it. ( not everyone but most ) With destroy you wipe out the geth along with the reapers, and if you chose peace during the Rannoch arc that is.... a bit annoying. So it makes control and or synthesis seem like the better or right choice because you do not sacrifice a species ( if you ignore the method of synthesis ) to implement it.

That just makes it easier for most to ignore the "bad" of control and synthesis. Whereas most destroyers accept what destroy does ( mainly because it is apparent )  and it is a downer


Just my opinion though.

Modifié par ghost9191, 27 octobre 2013 - 01:26 .

[NeonFlux117]

ghost9191 wrote...

@Vigilant111

they did the same color bs with ME2 though and most were fine with that, at least from what i recall

@Neonflx117

subjective and apparently pro fatalism

But I too became a legend and ended the reaper threat. The game told me. Just like destroy. Different avenues to the same destination. 

That was Shepard's destiny, to become a legend. 

[ghost9191]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@Vigilant111

they did the same color bs with ME2 though and most were fine with that, at least from what i recall

@Neonflx117

subjective and apparently pro fatalism

But I too became a legend and ended the reaper threat. The game told me. Just like destroy. Different avenues to the same destination. 

That was Shepard's destiny, to become a legend. 

i didn't say you didn't.  They all do stop the reapers but only one ends them.

The fatalism comment was to addrees your statement about synthesis ( i may have misread it ) and control being part of shepards destiny and s/he should accept it ( paraphrasing ) which i disagree with. But that is my right as it is your right to say it. 

as for the comment about it being subjective. that was just about your view on them being the right or perfect choice. however, the op did ask for everyones opinion so i guess i shouldn't have put that

And to be fair,  there was alot said in ME1 and 2  also, and we all know those don't mean sh*t now

Modifié par ghost9191, 27 octobre 2013 - 01:35 .

[NeonFlux117]

ghost9191 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@Vigilant111

they did the same color bs with ME2 though and most were fine with that, at least from what i recall

@Neonflx117

subjective and apparently pro fatalism

But I too became a legend and ended the reaper threat. The game told me. Just like destroy. Different avenues to the same destination. 

That was Shepard's destiny, to become a legend. 

i didn't say you didn't.  They all do stop the reapers but only one ends them.

The fatalism comment was to addrees your statement about synthesis ( i may have misread it ) and control being part of shepards destiny and s/he should accept it ( paraphrasing ) which i disagree with. But that is my right as it is your right to say it. 

as for the comment about it being subjective. that was just about your view on them being the right or perfect choice. however, the op did ask for everyones opinion so i guess i shouldn't have put that

And to be fair,  there was alot said in ME1 and 2  also, and we all know those don't mean sh*t now

Oh, ME1 and ME2 meant a lot. A ton. It was always gonna go like this. Shepard made it to the beam. Made it to the citadel. Activated the citadel control panel. Opened the citadel. Then collapsed. 

Then Asceneded to make his/her "choice". 

But EVERY shepard did the same thing. Like it always was suppose to be. 

The ending "choices" are subjective and a bit of a cruel Rorscharch test. But the journey is not. The journey happened the same for EVERY shepard.

And Shepard became a legend. All is good. 

[ghost9191]

@NeonFlux117

Well i was mainly doing that as a joke/shout out to those that felt like they meant nothing.

i should have chose something other than the winky face to express that lol

[NeonFlux117]

ghost9191 wrote...

@NeonFlux117

Well i was mainly doing that as a joke/shout out to those that felt like they meant nothing.

i should have chose something other than the winky face to express that lol

Wink away. It's a free country. 

You always have a choice. 

[SwobyJ]

ME1-2 means everything.

They + all DLC are necessary to fully understanding ME3.

Otherwise it's just the war, no harvest here, lalala.

[NeonFlux117]

SwobyJ wrote...

ME1-2 means everything.

They + all DLC are necessary to fully understanding ME3.

Otherwise it's just the war, no harvest here, lalala.

Yes. But not to understand "Mass Effect" or the "harvest" or the "war". But to understand one thing. One very special thing. 

Shepard. 


Well, special might not be the right word. I guess "anomaly" is better. 

[SwobyJ]

Control is idealist.
Destroy is realist.
Synthesis is utopianist.

Utopianist and idealist are similar words to fit into optimism, just as Control and Synthesis have somewhat similar, yet not exactly the same, concepts and outcomes.

If anything, Refuse is pessimist. Shepard isn't really allowed to be a pessimist though, so even here, he'll try to push forward.

He's went too far, gathered too many, fought too hard, to be a pessimist.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 27 octobre 2013 - 02:23 .

[NeonFlux117]

SwobyJ wrote...

Control is idealist.
Destroy is realist.
Synthesis is utopianist.

Utopianist and idealist are very similar words, just as Control and Synthesis have somewhat similar, yet not exactly the same, concepts and outcomes.

If anything, Refuse is pessimist. Shepard isn't really allowed to be a pessimist though, so even here, he'll try to push forward.

He's went too far, gathered too many, fought too hard, to be a pessimist.

Choice??? 

You know, for a game that's really trying to sell you "choice" and "player agency". The main character really only does what other people tell him to do. Anderson, nihlus, the spectres, the alliance, hackett, EDI, TIM, Cerberus.... 

You get the drift. 

"The path's are open, you must choose" 

Sure. I'll "choose"