1010 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

OP: Destroy costs the highest yet it made Shepard a hypocrite by way of annihilating all synthetic life

I don't think you understand what the word "hypocrite" actually means.

The EMS requirements also implied that choosing destroy (or control) is thematically incorrect as synthesis wins the contest when the Catalyst (and the EMS meter) juxtaposes the three options.

So, the most expensive choice is always the best? Well, I'm sure that the industry is happy you feel that way at least.

Also, paragon players who chose destroy have not been sufficiently provided for when the choice was assigned renegade colors, it served to mark a contradiction in their respective characters.

Paragon does not own the exclusive rights to the colour blue; TIM's colour is blue (his implants, Cerberus trooper husks, etc) so obviously his championed idea (Control) would get similar colours which leaves red/green/pink/yellow for the rest.

Control is the means of survival. It is obvious that control is the best.

Not by a long shot - Destroy is worrying about surviving the current war first and foremost whilst the other options are much more long-term by hijacking the Reapers to ensure peace through superior firepower

[NeonFlux117]

I'm surprised no one's seen what ALL the endings have in common and are really about.

What I'm trying to say is, all the ending choices have a common theme and a sort of common denominator in them. Some more than others are obvious. But it is all there in every single one.

[Vigilant111]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

OP: Destroy costs the highest yet it made Shepard a hypocrite by way of annihilating all synthetic life

I don't think you understand what the word "hypocrite" actually means.

Yes, I do, I chose this word to point out the fact that Shepard is doing exactly what the reapers did - killing innocent people

The EMS requirements also implied that choosing destroy (or control) is thematically incorrect as synthesis wins the contest when the Catalyst (and the EMS meter) juxtaposes the three options.

So, the most expensive choice is always the best? Well, I'm sure that the industry is happy you feel that way at least. 

From the developer's point of view, yes. However, I made the point so to point out this is one of the problems of the ending: it gave people the wrong impression that synthesis is "good"

Also, paragon players who chose destroy have not been sufficiently provided for when the choice was assigned renegade colors, it served to mark a contradiction in their respective characters.

Paragon does not own the exclusive rights to the colour blue; TIM's colour is blue (his implants, Cerberus trooper husks, etc) so obviously his championed idea (Control) would get similar colours which leaves red/green/pink/yellow for the rest.

At which point did I specify renegade color is red? Though I suppose I should have choosen a better expression such as "renegade action" as the latter part of my quote would not make sense

[AlanC9]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

You know, for a game that's really trying to sell you "choice" and "player agency". The main character really only does what other people tell him to do. Anderson, nihlus, the spectres, the alliance, hackett, EDI, TIM, Cerberus.... 

You get the drift. 

You mean, it's like every Bio game ever? Yeah, I noticed that.

[ghost9191]

@Vigilant111

hypocrite?

if we wish to use that logic , each ending makes shepard a hypocrite. Synthesis more so than the others


sorry but you can't really make that argument against only one choice

Modifié par ghost9191, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:05 .

[AlanC9]

Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:11 .

[Vigilant111]

ghost9191 wrote...

@Vigilant111

hypocrite?

if we wish to use that logic , each ending makes shepard a hypocrite. Synthesis more so than the others


sorry but you can't really make that argument against only one choice

Yes, you are correct, but as someone who has never chosen any ending but destroy, this particular aspect about destroy hits close to home. Perhaps it is a selfish thing but I wished destroy was much better than the version we have

[ghost9191]

AlanC9 wrote...



Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

well i agree, but that was the point of my post. If he wishes to use that argument that way, then every shep is a hypocrite in the end



@Vigilant111

i do agree with that, but i think of it as shepard doing what is necesary to save the galaxy. Part of being a spectre ( and human as some say ) 

Modifié par ghost9191, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:16 .

[NeonFlux117]

AlanC9 wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

You know, for a game that's really trying to sell you "choice" and "player agency". The main character really only does what other people tell him to do. Anderson, nihlus, the spectres, the alliance, hackett, EDI, TIM, Cerberus.... 

You get the drift. 

You mean, it's like every Bio game ever? Yeah, I noticed that.

It's go another "BioWare cliche" too. I'm talking about the series and Shepard. Not neccesarily the "endings" But I guess, they do play a certain role in it. Not much, but some. More of a personality expose on the Player and audience but I suppse they might hold some relevence in the future, but probably not signifcant. 

[Vigilant111]

AlanC9 wrote...



Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

There has been some speculations as to whether synthesis would actually change thinking processes, if it does so then freedom of thought might be undermined, at least this is how I apply hypocrisy to synthesis when Shepard promised freedom to all

[David7204]

You will never have a story where the player can 'decide' what they want to do in any real sense. So I would suggest you abandon that delusion sooner rather than later.

You are not the player character. You never will be. It makes no difference how much the player wants to choose to go home and eat Doritos. The player character will never do so. 

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:19 .

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

Shepard could be opposed to the Reapers and still like the idea of Synthesis, and think that having to put up with including the Reapers in it is a price worth paying.

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

You will never have a story where the player can 'decide' what they want to do in any real sense. So I would suggest you abandon that delusion sooner rather than later.

You are not the player character. You never will be. It makes no difference how much the player wants to choose to go home and eat Doritos. The player character will never do so. 

True but irrelevent, because a good RPG should try to at least give the illusion that they player can.

[jtav]

Or you could pity the Reapers (who are after all, the cojoined minds of past cycles) and think Synthesis is the best hope of freeing them.

[David7204]

Reorte wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You will never have a story where the player can 'decide' what they want to do in any real sense. So I would suggest you abandon that delusion sooner rather than later.

You are not the player character. You never will be. It makes no difference how much the player wants to choose to go home and eat Doritos. The player character will never do so. 

True but irrelevent, because a good RPG should try to at least give the illusion that they player can.

No. Not irrelevent in the slightest. In fact, as games become better designed and offer better choices with more impact, this problem is going to become bigger, not smaller. We're going to have more people complaining about this supposed 'problem' with better choices, not less.

As the 'illusion' improves, complaints will increase. Not decrease.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:28 .

[ghost9191]

@jtav

no room for your hippie bs in this thread that was created by jtav, jtav


ignoring that joke though, i think it is easier said than done for most. After talking to harby and sov, and reading the codex and planet details in ME3, it is hard to see them as "victims" .


not to mention all the sh*t the shepard character sees. Plus there is a pretty big risk in freeing them, because you don't know what they will do


just my take on that, not fact

Modifié par ghost9191, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Reorte]

David7204 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You will never have a story where the player can 'decide' what they want to do in any real sense. So I would suggest you abandon that delusion sooner rather than later.

You are not the player character. You never will be. It makes no difference how much the player wants to choose to go home and eat Doritos. The player character will never do so. 

True but irrelevent, because a good RPG should try to at least give the illusion that they player can.

No. Not irrelevent in the slightest. In fact, as games become better designed and offer better choices with more impact, this problem is going to become bigger, not smaller. We're going to have more people complaining about this supposed 'problem' with better choices, not less.

That's wrong because it assumes that people expect to be able to have full control. They don't, because they know it's not possible. It's only really being seen as an issue now because games have got to the state where they aren't 100% linear, and have matured enough to tell a good enough story that people want something more than 100% linear.

[David7204]

You're overestimating the general ability of video games players to process logic. Most people are really just not that smart or honest.

They do expect full control. Not all the time. But when they complaint on the internet they will. It's basically doublethink, if you've read 1984. The expectation only appears when they need it to appear, and fades afterwards. That's what gives the complaint it's strength, because its insubstantiality gives them the ability to disregard the reason and implications connected to it.

[KaiserShep]

jtav wrote...

Or you could pity the Reapers (who are after all, the cojoined minds of past cycles) and think Synthesis is the best hope of freeing them.

The way I see it, pitying them is not necessarily the same as letting them continue to exist. I doubt very much that anyone in there would've wanted to become a reaper and last for millions of years, so I show pity for them the same way I showed pity for the batarian in the refugee holding area: by pulling the plug.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 octobre 2013 - 03:56 .

[AlanC9]

Vigilant111 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

There has been some speculations as to whether synthesis would actually change thinking processes, if it does so then freedom of thought might be undermined, at least this is how I apply hypocrisy to synthesis when Shepard promised freedom to all

Gotcha. That works. Shepard does know that he's rewriting AI minds, at least; he can plead ignorance about organics, though.

[AlanC9]

Reorte wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

Shepard could be opposed to the Reapers and still like the idea of Synthesis, and think that having to put up with including the Reapers in it is a price worth paying.

Good point. If the Reapers' interests just don't matter to Shepard, it can't be hypocrisy. Just as the Potsdam conference weren't hypocritically endorsing prewar German policy even though the Allies ended up supporting all Germans being within Germany and Austria -- utilizing somewhat different means, of course.

[Chashan]

AlanC9 wrote...



Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

I am sorry to barge into the conversation like that, but how are Revans who reclaim their true self hypocrites? Anyone deserves to be labeled that in KotOR, it's the Jedi Councilors themselves for doing to Revans what they did.

Kaisershep wrote...

The way I see it, pitying them is not necessarily the same as letting them continue to exist. I doubt very much that anyone in there would've wanted to become a reaper and last for millions of years, so I show pity for them the same way I showed pity for the batarian in the refugee holding area: by pulling the plug.

I don't quite see those two cases on the same level: the batarian had very 'human' reasons for doing what he did, extreme yet understandable.
And I just plain don't buy that there's any type of preservation of individuals going on in those killbots, so 'pity' doesn't enter the equation, far as I am concerned. Storing information, sure, but just not that.

[KaiserShep]

Admittedly, I was being kind of flippant, as I don't even believe that there would be any individuals left in there, and if there were, killing them would probably do them a favor anyway, considering how we know that each and every person used to construct them died screaming in the process.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 octobre 2013 - 04:37 .

[AlanC9]

Chashan wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Not necessarily for Synthesis. It's only hypocrisy if Shepard claims to still be opposing the Reapers while fulfilling their mission. If he's honest about what he's doing it isn't hypocrisy. Same thing for KotOR -- DS Revan isn't a hypocrite unless he'd been planning to betray the Jedi the whole time.

I am sorry to barge into the conversation like that, but how are Revans who reclaim their true self hypocrites? Anyone deserves to be labeled that in KotOR, it's the Jedi Councilors themselves for doing to Revans what they did.

I meant before the PC knows he's Revan. Though it's been a while, I'm pretty sure the PC has to at least give lip service to Jedi ideals.

Actually, I suppose the real hypocrite would be a DS Revan who sides with the Council and destroys the Star Forge.

[Obadiah]

KaiserShep wrote...

jtav wrote...

Or you could pity the Reapers (who are after all, the cojoined minds of past cycles) and think Synthesis is the best hope of freeing them.

The way I see it, pitying them is not necessarily the same as letting them continue to exist. I doubt very much that anyone in there would've wanted to become a reaper and last for millions of years, so I show pity for them the same way I showed pity for the batarian in the refugee holding area: by pulling the plug.

The Cerberus scientists on the dead Reaper in ME2 slowly losing their minds as their memories become collective gives you an idea of what the existence of a mind within a Reaper is like. No sense of identity. They'd be personalities adrift in an endless sea of information, building fresh memories with their new Reaper AI senses.

It almost seems like a complete rebirth. Maybe that's what that thing we destroy at the end of ME2 is going through.