202 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

 It's a consistent theme in all your goddamn games.

Everyone always gets to live happily ever after at the end. With the sole exception of... the player character.

Seriously? Why the hell can the protagonist never, ever, EVER earn a happy ending, even after all their hard work?

I'd say "Dude, where the hell is my respect?" but that would be a little redundant. The hero has saved everyone's sorry asses and still nobody ever treats them with the slightest ounce of respect, so why can't they just retire to a little place and live as a hermit with their love interest?

It never happens. It's always gloom and doom. Death, unhealthy or broken relationships, etc, etc...

Which brings me to the point of, why is the protagonist also the only person who can never have healthy romantic relationships? Every other couple gets together nice and easy peasy, no muss, no fuss, no "complicated" garbage... the hero, on the other hand, despite being the most awesome person ever, kinda gets "left at the altar", so to speak...

Inquisition isn't the end of the Dragon Age series. Why would the PC have a happy ending when the world is going to hell, and getting worse by the day? At best it'd be "And the PC had a few weeks of happiness before remnants of Mages and Templars refusing to end the conflict came and screwed everything up. After the battle, things seemed to quiet down for a month or so only for word to arrive of an impending Qunari invasion."

Save the happy endings for the last game of the series.

[Androme]

 Shepard, if anyone, deserved a happy ending.

I'm looking at you, red ending.

[Angrywolves]

It's a fantasy that the previous protagonists in the DA games are anything approaching happy.
If you're the warden you're slowly dying from the taint.
Maybe someday someone will invent a cure, but when DAO ended there wasn't one.
If you were a Cousland warden, your parents are dead. Killing Arl Howe and Loghain doesn't bring them back.
Aeducan Bhelen killed your brother, may have killed your father.
Killing him, like my Aeducan warden did, doesn't bring them back.
Your city elf warden has their fiance die, and sees others raped and killed. The dalish warden looses a close friend, and so on.

In DA2 hawke looses a sibling and their mother, then has to flee the city. The seekers are looking for hawke, wanting to blame it all on hawke.
So no. If the warden is alive, they're not happy.
If hawke is alive they're not happy .
To say warden is happy or hawke is happy is absurd.
shrugs.
Gaider wrote them as tragic figures. The Inquisitor will also be unhappy when they "disappear ".

[Xilizhra]

If you're the warden you're slowly dying from the taint.
Maybe someday someone will invent a cure, but when DAO ended there wasn't one.

Well, a mage could put it off indefinitely.

Also, my Warden and Hawke were happy at the ends of their respective games.

[HiroVoid]

Angrywolves wrote...
Aeducan Bhelen killed your brother, may have killed your father.

Actually, my character killed her brother and her other brother....and I guess possibly, partially responsible for the father.

[Zkyire]

Like to point out that for those characters, maybe from their perspective, saving the world is their happy ending.

Modifié par Zkyire, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:37 .

[Estelindis]

motomotogirl wrote...

Hmm... funnily enough, I actually dislike the DA:O ending the most of the three ( DA:O, DA2, ME) because it's so happy and bland. My Warden crownded Alistair and went off adventuring with his love, Zevran. Yay, happy fun times.

The thing is, that was a result of the choices you made.  The result of the choices I made on my first playthrough was a bittersweet ending with more bitter than sweet, with a King Alistair who'd dumped my city elf sacrificing himself to save her.  She'd intended to sacrifice herself but couldn't.  When the game was over, she felt that, even though she'd won, she'd lost everything.  

In my opinion, DA:O's ending is the best of any Bioware game because of the amount of responsiveness to previous choice.  My Warden's tragedy was the consequence of several choices.  If she'd made different choices, she could have had a happy ending - or, at least, a happier ending, because there was literally no way for my Warden to get everything she wanted.  Some combinations of character background and roleplaying approach can give one everything one wants (within shared limits, e.g. the Warden taint), just as in your example, but in my case this wasn't possible.  However, character backgrounds and roleplaying approaches, in themselves, are choices that showcase the richness and variety of Thedas.  I hope to see more of this from the ending of DA:I.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

It's a fantasy that the previous protagonists in the DA games are anything approaching happy.
If you're the warden you're slowly dying from the taint.
Maybe someday someone will invent a cure, but when DAO ended there wasn't one.
If you were a Cousland warden, your parents are dead. Killing Arl Howe and Loghain doesn't bring them back.
Aeducan Bhelen killed your brother, may have killed your father.
Killing him, like my Aeducan warden did, doesn't bring them back.
Your city elf warden has their fiance die, and sees others raped and killed. The dalish warden looses a close friend, and so on.

In DA2 hawke looses a sibling and their mother, then has to flee the city. The seekers are looking for hawke, wanting to blame it all on hawke.
So no. If the warden is alive, they're not happy.
If hawke is alive they're not happy .
To say warden is happy or hawke is happy is absurd.
shrugs.
Gaider wrote them as tragic figures. The Inquisitor will also be unhappy when they "disappear ".

To be honest warden didn't get so bad ending (and thats why i hope that we don't see him revan is enough) and well whether s/he is happy depends as who you play and well past experience don't have to affect him.Only thing is taint but hey we have avernus at least my warden have. however as whole ending is bittersweet unlike da 2 ending where hawke and everyone is screwed. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:55 .

[Angrywolves]

It's a fiction that mage warden can resist the taint while other wardens can't .
Been a while since I played Aeducan , so I stand corrected.
Some folks may insist their warden is happy, or their hawke is happy , failing to realize how seeing loved ones die would effect them.
shrugs.
But they can believe whatever, not worth arguing over.

[Star fury]

Only Hawke can't get a happy/decent ending, but Hawke fails so much it doesn't matter tbh.

[LobselVith8]

Angrywolves wrote...

It's a fiction that mage warden can resist the taint while other wardens can't .

Avernus used magic to prevent ghoulification for centuries. It's certainly possible.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

It's a fiction that mage warden can resist the taint while other wardens can't .
Been a while since I played Aeducan , so I stand corrected.
Some folks may insist their warden is happy, or their hawke is happy , failing to realize how seeing loved ones die would effect them.
shrugs.
But they can believe whatever, not worth arguing over.

Sleep with leliana and talk to morrigan (if you are friend with her) she will ask (notice?) why the warden is constantly smiling well not so unhappy for me.

That same will tell leliana if we romance alistair.

Well when avernus still is tainted he managed be alive for 200 years we can spare him.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 20 octobre 2013 - 03:12 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Estelindis wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Hmm... funnily enough, I actually dislike the DA:O ending the most of the three ( DA:O, DA2, ME) because it's so happy and bland. My Warden crownded Alistair and went off adventuring with his love, Zevran. Yay, happy fun times.

The thing is, that was a result of the choices you made.  The result of the choices I made on my first playthrough was a bittersweet ending with more bitter than sweet, with a King Alistair who'd dumped my city elf sacrificing himself to save her.  She'd intended to sacrifice herself but couldn't.  When the game was over, she felt that, even though she'd won, she'd lost everything.  

In my opinion, DA:O's ending is the best of any Bioware game because of the amount of responsiveness to previous choice.  My Warden's tragedy was the consequence of several choices.  If she'd made different choices, she could have had a happy ending - or, at least, a happier ending, because there was literally no way for my Warden to get everything she wanted.  Some combinations of character background and roleplaying approach can give one everything one wants (within shared limits, e.g. the Warden taint), just as in your example, but in my case this wasn't possible.  However, character backgrounds and roleplaying approaches, in themselves, are choices that showcase the richness and variety of Thedas.  I hope to see more of this from the ending of DA:I.

Hmm, good point. I hadn't thought of it like that! I forget that different choices in DA:O (and opportunities, like the abilities to romance Alistair if you're female or Morrigan if you're male... the two LI that have the most emotional impact after certain choies in the game) lead to different endings. 

But thanks to that choice system, I ended up with a really boring and fairy tale happy ending. I don't think choices should affect the ending you get because then some will get a crap ending and some will get a really awesome/moving ending (like yours). 

In the same sense that I think there should be a happy medium between "happily ever after" and "so bittersweet you drown in your own tears," I also think there should be a happy medium between "choices do not affect the ending whatsoever" and "sixteen different end results, all dramatically different."

(OP is weirdly combative and hostile and brings nothing to the table, but I think this is an interesting topic nonetheless )

[Xilizhra]

But thanks to that choice system, I ended up with a really boring and fairy tale happy ending. I don't think choices should affect the ending you get because then some will get a crap ending and some will get a really awesome/moving ending (like yours).

Er... why would her ending be better than yours, objectively? Certainly not for me.

[Hainkpe]

You want an HEA Certification for your protagonist? Go read a romance novel! That's where that belongs.

Ironic that I say that. LOL

[BlueMagitek]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

This is actually a good observation. I can see someone stepping in and saying:

"Oh well in DA:O and KotoR you can have a happy ending for your character."

Which was true at the time, but then the writers expanded on the story and continued YOUR character's story. We all know Revan got screwed over royally, and god knows where the Warden is now.

This is specifically about Bioware.  What happened in KotOR was beyond their control for KotOR 2 was out of their hands.  If you want to blame anyone, take a look at LucasArts.

DA:O did end happily for your Warden if you chose to do so.  This doesn't change in Awakening, nor does it change from DA:2.  The Warden "disappears" for a time, but Alistair mentions that he or she would be back in Ferelden.  Does everything work out perfectly?  No, not always, but that doesn't make the endings unhappy.

Also, everyone is ignoring Baldur's Gate & Jade Empire. :/

[Angrywolves]

Concerning Avernus, that's true.
I see that as another retconish situation aka something was written in the game without a full examination of its ramifications/consequences.
I doubt our warden will want to kill other wardens, assuming he either spared Avernus, or got his formula in order to prevent ghoulification/life extention.
I expect Gaider will come out with something to quash the " warden could have followed Avernus " theory at some point because I feel pretty sure that wasn't Gaider's intention when that dlc was written .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Angrywolves wrote...

Concerning Avernus, that's true.
I see that as another retconish situation aka something was written in the game without a full examination of its ramifications/consequences.
I doubt our warden will want to kill other wardens, assuming he either spared Avernus, or got his formula in order to prevent ghoulification/life extention.
I expect Gaider will come out with something to quash the " warden could have followed Avernus " theory at some point because I feel pretty sure that wasn't Gaider's intention when that dlc was written .

We don't know whether killing is necessary because he was killing for research and he can continue without killing if we tell him that just slow him down and well we can drink his potion.And well i doubt that killing would be problem for warden who killed peoples for nothing and we could play this way.

And i rly hope that retcons , resurrections , 2000 ridiculous connections between characters old and new ones will end in dai.  

[Gwydden]

My Wardens ended DAO quite happy, in my book, even those who went through with the US. I hate the conecept of a happy ending for a character. It implies that they did nothing after the end of the story and dedicated the rest of their lives to frolic in the woods. I honestly can't imagine any character of mine retiring to a house in the forest with his/her friends and/or lovers. They're the sort who like to have interesting lives.

DAO's ending it's the best BioWare's made so far, I'd say. It has a wide array of outcomes, none of which is "perfect" (either the Warden/Alistair/Loghain dies, or they made a shady deal of unknown consequences) but they fit different characters and how the player would rather have the story end. DA2 ending was just to vague and abrupt for me to judge it in this aspect.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

This is actually a good observation. I can see someone stepping in and saying:

"Oh well in DA:O and KotoR you can have a happy ending for your character."

Which was true at the time, but then the writers expanded on the story and continued YOUR character's story. We all know Revan got screwed over royally, and god knows where the Warden is now.

This is specifically about Bioware.  What happened in KotOR was beyond their control for KotOR 2 was out of their hands.  If you want to blame anyone, take a look at LucasArts.

DA:O did end happily for your Warden if you chose to do so.  This doesn't change in Awakening, nor does it change from DA:2.  The Warden "disappears" for a time, but Alistair mentions that he or she would be back in Ferelden.  Does everything work out perfectly?  No, not always, but that doesn't make the endings unhappy.

Also, everyone is ignoring Baldur's Gate & Jade Empire. :/

The Warden is still around in 9:37 Dragon when Alistair says they should be back in Denerim, but by 9:40 Dragon they have vanished. THAT is what changes the happy ending for the Warden.

I was actually pretty satisfied with the ending I got in Dragon Age Origins. Even though he and Morrigan didn't end up together, my Human Noble Warden became a fixture in the Ferelden court and one of King Alistair's advisors. With Fergus back in control of Highever that seemed about as content of an ending as he could have expected. I didn't feel undoing it was necessary.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 07:29 .

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

But thanks to that choice system, I ended up with a really boring and fairy tale happy ending. I don't think choices should affect the ending you get because then some will get a crap ending and some will get a really awesome/moving ending (like yours).

Er... why would her ending be better than yours, objectively? Certainly not for me.

Well, is there really such a thing as "objectivity" here?  It seems like exactly what you're saying is that particular endings are better or worse for some people, so surely that means it's subjective.  One person might appreciate what happened to my Warden as a beautifully-written ending (which, in some ways, I can agree with), but at the time I was devastated and felt like I would have loved a happy ending.  Sometimes people will want a happy ending but not get it, while at other times people will want something bittersweet and not get that.  But I don't think that writing a good ending is necessarily about satisfying these impulses, because writers can never guess who will want what.  The best that they can do is to keep the world and characters true to themselves and trust us to choose in a way that keeps our player-character true to herself or himself.  I feel like they succeeded at that in DA:O.  

Sure, there were plenty of controversies, e.g. people annoyed at Alistair for opposing Loghain's recruitment to the Wardens.  From many points of view, it would have solved a lot of endgame problems if he hadn't done this, would have made a lot of hard questions and heartache unnecessary.  But there are two main points against that.  First, it made the end of the game much more interesting to have those problems.  Secondly, it was true to Alistair's character, which is a flawed character.  Perfect people are boring, from a storytelling perspective.  

Anyway, I fear that we may never see an ending as beautifully reflective of player choice as DA:O's again, because Dragon Age is a series and if Bioware let every game ending bifurcate as many times as DA:O's did then they're going to have a harder and harder time reflecting the consequences of past actions as the series rolls on.  But I really, really hope I'm wrong.

motomotogirl wrote...
I think there should be a happy medium between "happily ever after" and "so bittersweet you drown in your own tears," I also think there should be a happy medium between "choices do not affect the ending whatsoever" and "sixteen different end results, all dramatically different."

Thanks for the reply.  I still think that everything from "happy ever after" through "happy medium" to "horribly bittersweet" should be available and should depend on player choice.  I don't think that Bioware should make the choices for us, just set them up.
And yes, it is a very interesting discussion!  

Modifié par Estelindis, 20 octobre 2013 - 07:58 .

[TheButterflyEffect]

It's not "why it's unhappy". It's "why is the protagonist the only one who ever ends up unhappy", as opposed to everyone being equally miserable.

[Estelindis]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

It's not "why it's unhappy". It's "why is the protagonist the only one who ever ends up unhappy", as opposed to everyone being equally miserable.

But this is patently untrue.  

Depending on player choice, many characters can end the game much unhappier than the protagonist.  Consider a male Warden who likes and marries Anora, surviving to become Prince Consort of Ferelden after Warden Loghain sacrifices himself to kill the archdemon.  Now consider drunk, exiled Alistair, utterly miserable, full of regret, and only alive because the Warden intervened to stop Anora having him executed.  This is just one of dozens of examples.

Modifié par Estelindis, 20 octobre 2013 - 08:50 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

We need more characters to go the route of revan in the old republic mmo tbh. It would improve their character development a lot more than just shuffling them off and having them disappear forever just cause.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Bioware went out of it's way to make Revan an abject failure who's development was completely reversed. The redemption arc from the first game was completely undone in TOR. I don't think they should ever do that ever again. It would have been better if he had not been shoehorned into the story at all.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 octobre 2013 - 09:40 .