202 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

I had to make a male Warden so that I could have a happy ending in DA:O and run off with Morrigan. It was the only way.

Uh... There were other romances beside Morrigan and Alistair. Also interpeting the running off with Morrigan ending as "and they lived happily ever after at a cottage by the sea!" seems weird to me. Clearly DAI is gonna poke big fat holes in that story.


Anyway I don't like happy endings . There is no such thing. I recently read The Pale King by DFW and there was this side story about this lady who went through a period of self abuse and wound up in a mental hospital. There she met this guy who was the only one to really get her, the twist being that he had a terminal heart condition and probably wouldn't be living much longer. Her problem is that she's basically too damn hot and everybody judges her by her appearance and never sees her for who she really is, he teaches her that the problem starts with her, she sees herself that way and so she expects everyone else to do so too. Eventually she's about ready to get discharged and panics because she's afraid she'll never see him again or that he'll be dead. So after she's discharged she tracks him down and eventually they marry! Happily ever after.

Lolno.

The majesty of her love unforunately does not cure his heart condition becuase this isn't ****ing Disney. Now I know you think you know where this is going, no? He dies and she's left bereft and all alone with no one to understand her and she's built her entire identity on him and now it's all gone away like a sand castle built too damn close to the shore! OH WOE! But NO! The real kicker here is that he doesn't die. Now she's stuck in this marriage since she was like 18 or something and it's like ten years later and he's still not dead but too sick for her to actually live out her life with him. She's trapped. He's also totally ungrateful (she feels like he should be because she basically gave up her youth for him) and says she only married him for herself, like to build up her perception of herself. It's a very good side story ya'll should read it.

Anyway, my point? Happy endings suck donkey dick. No thought goes into them. They're empty little abstractions. LAZY WRITING. I bet Cinderella eventually got diabetes and her feet got too fat to fit into the slippers and That Guy made her clean his castle because she could no longer fulfill his foot fetish. I bet Belle and Beast died in a horrible fire in that castle of his because the villagers saw their relationship as a filthy abomination. I bet Ariel felt just awful about becoming human when she learned about trawl fishing.

Happy endings don't make you think, they don't make you feel. I don't necessarily even like sad, bitter/sweet endings but at least they make me feel something. Their poignancy makes them lasting. So if I had to choose I'd choose Bioware's current "theme" every damn time.

How miserable are you? Do you really need things to be that miserable to make yourself feel better? Or are you just trolling?

[SirGladiator]

I agree that it's extremely important to have a happy ending, and there has been a certain theme of sort of going back and messing with the happy endings that we've had. Certainly DAO's ending was extremely happy, Revan's ending was extremely happy, the Jade Empire one, ME and ME2, no complaints whatsoever. But I agree that it is annoying that they've tinkered with some of those endings, all in a negative way, in other games, like Revan in SWTOR and of course the Warden in DA2. They should leave the happy endings happy, that doesn't mean you can't have the older characters in the newer games, we 'want' them there, but we just want the circumstances to be happy. Happy endings are an absolute requirement for any game, certainly ME3 is a great example of why. If you play a game (or series of games in the case of the ME series) for a hundred hours or more, and then get a terrible ending, it just feels like everything you did was ruined, that it was all for nothing. ME3 should've had the most epicly awesome happy ending in the history of games, a 3 game series coming to a conclusion, saving all of humanity (as well as other various alien races) from the greatest threat in history, your character deserved the happiest of happy endings with their LI and all their teammates. Certainly if you look at DAO it wasn't a series, but you still played the game a LOOONG time, and you got a really awesome ending. It felt great, it made you want to play the game over and over and over again, and I can't even count the number of times I did just that. The DA2 ending wasn't especially good, it had certain aspects that 'could' be good if you played the game just right, but obviously it wasn't remotely as great an ending as DAO. Hopefully the DAI ending will be an awesome happy ending (though not necessarily by default, I do like the idea of having to earn it, like you do in ME2, if you rush through the game some of your friends will end up dead and you won't be happy, if you play it right you'll all live and you'll be very happy) . That's what pretty much everybody wants, the opportunity to have a happy ending. If you're the type of person that actually likes unhappy endings, that should be an option as well, like in DAO or ME2 (or of course ME3), where you could definitely get an unhappy ending if you wanted one, but so long as you can have a very happy ending, I, and I think most everybody else, will be very satisfied with that.

[Star fury]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

Female Cousland ending when she marries Alistair and becomes a queen-consort is one Mary Sue ending.  I struggle to think a happier ending in a videogame, albeit it has one caveat which is only good. 

How is that Mary Sue? The Couslands were popular noblity so they accepted her as a queen.

It looks a lot like an ending for bad fanfics or romantic novels. I prefer an ending where Alistair rejects heartbroken female warden.

[Fredward]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
How miserable are you? Do you really need things to be that miserable to make yourself feel better? Or are you just trolling?

-snort-

Please. I could very easily point out that the people who want to experience some kind of vicarious joy from fiction are the ones that need to check the state of their lives, but I won't. Know why? Cuz it's asinine. I realize fantasy serves as a form of escapism for many yet you should keep in mind that for many others its primary purpose is simply entertainment. I have no need to look for catharsis in fantasy. I like sad/bittersweet endings because they make me think and feel and wonder, simple, happy, closed off endings do not do this for me.

It's just that simple.

[Shadow Fox]

Star fury wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

Female Cousland ending when she marries Alistair and becomes a queen-consort is one Mary Sue ending.  I struggle to think a happier ending in a videogame, albeit it has one caveat which is only good. 

How is that Mary Sue? The Couslands were popular noblity so they accepted her as a queen.

It looks a lot like an ending for bad fanfics or romantic novels. I prefer an ending where Alistair rejects heartbroken female warden.

You do know that the only reason he has a  rather shakey claim himself is he's Maric's bastard right?Wheras Fem Cousland is a legitimate daugther to a popular noble family.

[Shadow Fox]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
How miserable are you? Do you really need things to be that miserable to make yourself feel better? Or are you just trolling?

-snort-

Please. I could very easily point out that the people who want to experience some kind of vicarious joy from fiction are the ones that need to check the state of their lives, but I won't. Know why? Cuz it's asinine. I realize fantasy serves as a form of escapism for many yet you should keep in mind that for many others its primary purpose is simply entertainment. I have no need to look for catharsis in fantasy. I like sad/bittersweet endings because they make me think and feel and wonder, simple, happy, closed off endings do not do this for me.

It's just that simple.

You do know there are terrible bad endings too right?

[Fredward]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
You do know there are terrible bad endings too right?

Did I somehow give off the impression that I approve of a "rocks fall and everyone dies" ending? If so I apologise, cuz I don't.

[David7204]

There's very clearly something else going on here. People who simply don't like happy endings say they don't like them and leave it at that. You clearly are carrying contempt.

It seems to me that you're angry at the very possibility of people existing that are happy. To the point of constructing 'hand-canon' of all these characters being miserable despite the story very clearly establishing otherwise.

Modifié par David7204, 21 octobre 2013 - 08:41 .

[Shadow Fox]

David7204 wrote...

There's very clearly something else going on here. People who simply don't like happy endings say they don't like them and leave it at that. You clearly are carrying contempt.

It seems to me that you're angry at the very possibility of people existing that are happy.

Or they simply have a different preference...

[David7204]

No, I don't think so.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

SirGladiator wrote...

I agree that it's extremely important to have a happy ending, and there has been a certain theme of sort of going back and messing with the happy endings that we've had. Certainly DAO's ending was extremely happy, Revan's ending was extremely happy, the Jade Empire one, ME and ME2, no complaints whatsoever. But I agree that it is annoying that they've tinkered with some of those endings, all in a negative way, in other games, like Revan in SWTOR and of course the Warden in DA2.

I hadn't realized this before, but now that you mention it... yeah, that's a little discouraging. I'm still hoping that the Warden's and Hawke's disappearance is more along the lines of "secret mission" and not "they're dead or beyond saving".

[Fredward]

David7204 wrote...
There's very clearly something else going on here. People who simply don't like happy endings say they don't like them and leave it at that. You clearly are carrying contempt.

It seems to me that you're angry at the very possibility of people existing that are happy. To the point of constructing 'hand-canon' of all these characters being miserable despite the story very clearly establishing otherwise.

Are you talking about the Disney princesses? That was a joke dude. And I have said that I prefer sad endings over happy endings, I have even said why I prefer them, repeatedly. People seem to insist I have some ulterior, evil, bitter happy-hating reason and that's your perogative I guess?

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:52 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

David7204 wrote...
There's very clearly something else going on here. People who simply don't like happy endings say they don't like them and leave it at that. You clearly are carrying contempt.

It seems to me that you're angry at the very possibility of people existing that are happy. To the point of constructing 'hand-canon' of all these characters being miserable despite the story very clearly establishing otherwise.

Are you talking about the Disney princesses? That was a joke dude. And I have said that I prefer sad endings over happy endings, I have even said why I prefer them, repeatedly. People seem to insist I have some ulterior, evil, bitter happy-hating reason and that's your perogative I guess?

It's the way you're coming across. I have to agree with David here. You're coming across totally dismissive of anyone who prefers happy ending, and tout your preference as superior because it makes you feel and think. That clearly shows contempt. 

[Dermain]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
It's the way you're coming across. I have to agree with David here. You're coming across totally dismissive of anyone who prefers happy ending, and tout your preference as superior because it makes you feel and think. That clearly shows contempt. 

Well seeing as he was responding to a post (see below) that could be considered insulting/dismissive his reaction is understandable.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
How miserable are you? Do you really need things to be that miserable to make yourself feel better? Or are you just trolling?

As for being dismissive it seems to be directed more at his Disney analogies.

[Ieldra]

Here's my take on the issue of "happy" endings:

We first need to define: what is a happy ending? YMMV, but your typical "happily ever after" isn't a happy ending for me. It's a boring one that closes off any untapped potential in the character, closes off the possibility of the protagonist leading an interesting life after the events of the story. I wouldn't want such an ending for most protagonists I've played, and if offered as an option for a game ending I'd avoid that one like the plague.

However, at the same time I feel that our protagonists deserve some happiness after all they went through, so neither do I want the ending to close off the possibility of happiness. And I want them to survive.

The ending that often combines most of what I like is the "ride off into the sunset" ending, with or without LI. The important thing is that I can imagine my protagonist to be in more interesting stories, while I can also imagine them reasonably happy, within the constraints of realism, the latter meaning mostly an acknowledgement that no state of mind lasts forever. It is also important to me that my character retains his psychological independence from anyone around them with the possible exception of the LI. That's why I usually don't like it if the protagonist becomes part of an established power structure in the end.

In any other respect, I like endings that trigger my imagination in a good way. For that, it is important that they are not too specific. If the ending is very specific, I will be unhappy in equal measure if it contradicts my preferences in significant aspects. Since no game developer can take all possible preferences into account, that means that the ending must either be somewhat vague about the personal fate of the protagonist, or offer choices with a range of possibilities for the future where any specific elements remain unrealized in a different option. 

Here's an example out of classic literature of one of my most favorite endings: At the end of Alexandre Dumas "The Count of Monte Cristo" (the book version), Dantès goes on board his ship and leaves France behind, and at the last moment it is revealed that his long-time female companion Haydée loves him. They go off...well, not into the sunset but rather the sunrise since they're heading, it is implied, to the still-mysterious East, but it serves the same purpose. I like this because it focuses on possibilities for the future at the same time as the old story is ended. A new life, a new love, leaving the troubles of the past behind. but at the same time you get the feeling that his adventures aren't over, it's just the start of a new chapter. To my great disappointment, I haven't seen the original version with Haydée realized in a movie version yet (and I think I know them all). I especially hate the versions where Edmond and Mercedes (his old love) come together again, since I have the feeling that this binds him to the past. Some would call those latter versions happy, but I find them constricting to the point that they make me physically choke.
 
So there are two endings which could reasonably be called happy, but I love one and hate the other. I prefer it if the possiblity of happiness for the protagonist is not closed off, but otherwise other factors are more important than the ending being of the classic happy variants or not.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:55 .

[Welsh Inferno]

sH0tgUn jUl

It's the way you're coming across. I have to agree with David here. You're coming across totally dismissive of anyone who prefers happy ending

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How miserable are you? Do you really need things to be that miserable to make yourself feel better?

I giggled.

[Estelindis]

In my opinion, one of the things that can make happy endings boring is a sense of inevitability. If one assumes that there has to be a happy ending, then it removes a lot of narrative tension. "I know this is going to end well no matter what, so why do I care about X, Y or Z along the way?" That's why I think that responsiveness to choice is so important. If some choices lead to bittersweet endings, outright tragedies, noble sacrifices, etc., and it's not quite entirely clear at the outset which choice will lead to which outcome, then you can have some happy endings and also the narrative tension. I generally feel that going through the difficult soul-searching of trying to find the best answer in a dilemma allows one to "earn" one's happy ending (if, indeed, one gets such an ending). That makes it far more interesting.

This is one reason why I find DA:O's ending a lot better than DA2's. I didn't feel like my choices in DA2 made as much difference, compared to the first game. There were certainly choices with impact, even in DA2, but the range of outcomes was a lot smaller.

Something else that diminished the impact of the ending, for me, was a sense of lack of agency. Hawke had a hand in helping several aspects of the screwing up that let to the final eruption of conflict, and you had no way to choose differently even if you felt like there was a giant glowing sign with the words "This is a terrible idea!" It made me feel like Hawke was dumbed down a bit as a protagonist. There were several things that s/he should have been able to guess (I mean, I certainly guessed them, while playing) that the Warden is not similarly culpable for not guessing. Honestly, how many people anticipated that a Warden must die to defeat the archdemon or guessed that Morrigan would offer a way of getting around that? Because I feel that Hawke should have done a better job, it's hard for me to feel like my Hawke earned the somewhat-happy ending that she got. By contrast, I still feel residual outrage for all the unearned suffering that my Warden went through in spite of doing the best she could.

To sum it up, I suppose, agency, tension and surprise can make the difference between a good ending and a bad one, whether it's happy or not.

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 octobre 2013 - 12:11 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

Female Cousland ending when she marries Alistair and becomes a queen-consort is one Mary Sue ending.  I struggle to think a happier ending in a videogame, albeit it has one caveat which is only good. 

How is that Mary Sue? The Couslands were popular noblity so they accepted her as a queen.

It looks a lot like an ending for bad fanfics or romantic novels. I prefer an ending where Alistair rejects heartbroken female warden.

You do know that the only reason he has a  rather shakey claim himself is he's Maric's bastard right?Wheras Fem Cousland is a legitimate daugther to a popular noble family.

How is "legitimacy," either popular or by birth, relevant to whether or not a character or ending is a Mary-Sue? (And, for simplicity's sake, let's just ignore the fact that if you lose the Landsmeet you were not accepted by the nobles as "popular nobility," instead you butchered your way against Loghain in the throne room rather than accept defeat). The fact that, in one scenario, the female Cousland may have won the throne in the Landsmeet hardly makes her any less of a Mary Sue in the marry Alistar/become queen quintessential Mary Sue ending (in fact it makes her more of a Mary Sue as she either had the know-how or popularity to win the Landsmeet). 

Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 21 octobre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Dave of Canada]

This is certainly a new and interesting topic. How about no?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 octobre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

I had to make a male Warden so that I could have a happy ending in DA:O and run off with Morrigan. It was the only way.

Uh... There were other romances beside Morrigan and Alistair. Also interpeting the running off with Morrigan ending as "and they lived happily ever after at a cottage by the sea!" seems weird to me. Clearly DAI is gonna poke big fat holes in that story.


Anyway I don't like happy endings . There is no such thing. I recently read The Pale King by DFW and there was this side story about this lady who went through a period of self abuse and wound up in a mental hospital. There she met this guy who was the only one to really get her, the twist being that he had a terminal heart condition and probably wouldn't be living much longer. Her problem is that she's basically too damn hot and everybody judges her by her appearance and never sees her for who she really is, he teaches her that the problem starts with her, she sees herself that way and so she expects everyone else to do so too. Eventually she's about ready to get discharged and panics because she's afraid she'll never see him again or that he'll be dead. So after she's discharged she tracks him down and eventually they marry! Happily ever after.

Lolno.

The majesty of her love unforunately does not cure his heart condition becuase this isn't ****ing Disney. Now I know you think you know where this is going, no? He dies and she's left bereft and all alone with no one to understand her and she's built her entire identity on him and now it's all gone away like a sand castle built too damn close to the shore! OH WOE! But NO! The real kicker here is that he doesn't die. Now she's stuck in this marriage since she was like 18 or something and it's like ten years later and he's still not dead but too sick for her to actually live out her life with him. She's trapped. He's also totally ungrateful (she feels like he should be because she basically gave up her youth for him) and says she only married him for herself, like to build up her perception of herself. It's a very good side story ya'll should read it.

Anyway, my point? Happy endings suck donkey dick. No thought goes into them. They're empty little abstractions. LAZY WRITING. I bet Cinderella eventually got diabetes and her feet got too fat to fit into the slippers and That Guy made her clean his castle because she could no longer fulfill his foot fetish. I bet Belle and Beast died in a horrible fire in that castle of his because the villagers saw their relationship as a filthy abomination. I bet Ariel felt just awful about becoming human when she learned about trawl fishing.

Happy endings don't make you think, they don't make you feel. I don't necessarily even like sad, bitter/sweet endings but at least they make me feel something. Their poignancy makes them lasting. So if I had to choose I'd choose Bioware's current "theme" every damn time.

This is your prerogative. I reject it and will use without shame the word of the majority to advocate for a wholly happy ending should I have it, because I want no part of your philosophy, nor your endings, because neither would do me the slightest bit of good.

[Aggie Punbot]

I would like to put forth that all I would like would be to have the option of earning a happy ending for my playable character and not have a miserable, tragic, woe-is-me ending foisted upon me regardless of any of my choices. The "problem" with this, though, is that there seems to be a rather vocal minority of players that feel that if a happy ending is possible, they are required to take the steps needed to reach it, even if they would personally prefer a more somber ending that is also achievable.

Dragon Age: Origins had the perfect example of a 'happy ending' that did not come without sacrifice. My warden got to be with her one true love, but had to ask him to perform a questionable act to achieve this that quite probably will have dire consequences in the future. Nonetheless, she got her 'happy ending.' That is, she got it until Dragon Age 2 came out and nullified it completely by changing her story. <_<

I don't think it's unreasonable to request that a "happy ending" at least be possible in the next installment of the series.

[Estelindis]

I agree with everything you said, TS2Aggie.

[Xilizhra]

I find it interesting that you're tying your female protagonist's "happiness" to whether she "found love" or not. Very interesting.

Some people find romance important. Nothing to do with gender.