202 réponses à ce sujet

[Fetunche]

There should be happy, sad, bitter sweet and sunshine with lollipops endings , different people like different things. I don't agree that a happy ending should be harder to obtain than a sad one however, make your decision and take the consequences good or bad.

[Ieldra]

TS2Aggie wrote...
I would like to put forth that all I would like would be to have the option of earning a happy ending for my playable character and not have a miserable, tragic, woe-is-me ending foisted upon me regardless of any of my choices. The "problem" with this, though, is that there seems to be a rather vocal minority of players that feel that if a happy ending is possible, they are required to take the steps needed to reach it, even if they would personally prefer a more somber ending that is also achievable.

Dragon Age: Origins had the perfect example of a 'happy ending' that did not come without sacrifice. My warden got to be with her one true love, but had to ask him to perform a questionable act to achieve this that quite probably will have dire consequences in the future. Nonetheless, she got her 'happy ending.' That is, she got it until Dragon Age 2 came out and nullified it completely by changing her story. <_<

I don't think it's unreasonable to request that a "happy ending" at least be possible in the next installment of the series.

As I said, it depends what "happy" means. There can only be a limited number of options, and if the only way my protagonist survives has them get a "marriage and little blue children" future, I'd rather have them dead, even though I want nothing more than an ending that's happy in other ways. 

If you're saying that a happy ending means "the protagonist survives intact and neither is the LI dead, and there is hope for the future", then I agree that a variant of that should be an option. However, I find it more important to either have agency over the specifics or have few specifics told by the epilogue, in order to avoid futures I don't like. I can deal with death, but not with derailment (I'm looking at you, Shepard - why did it have to be death AND derailment for you).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2013 - 01:38 .

[Gwydden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I said, it depends what "happy" means. There can only be a limited number of options, and if the only way my protagonist survives has them get a "marriage and little blue children" future, I'd rather have them dead, even though I want nothing more than an ending that's happy in other ways. 

If you're saying that a happy ending means "the protagonist survives intact and neither is the LI dead, and there is hope for the future", then I agree that a variant of that should be an option. However, I find it more important to either have agency over the specifics or have few specifics told by the epilogue, in order to avoid futures I don't like. I can deal with death, but not with derailment (I'm looking at you, Shepard - why did it have to be death AND derailment for you).

Truth be told, I find the "and they lived happily ever after" sort of ending deeply unsatisfying, for the reasons I stated earlier: it implies the charater's story ended and quite often it doesn't fit their personality in the slightest. My definition of a happy ending is pretty much the one you point out. That's why I liked the DAO ending and why I don't get how DA2 retconned anything in that aspect.

[Estelindis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I said, it depends what "happy" means. There can only be a limited number of options, and if the only way my protagonist survives has them get a "marriage and little blue children" future, I'd rather have them dead, even though I want nothing more than an ending that's happy in other ways.

I see what you mean.  I think that DA:O points the way forward in this respect yet again: there is a price for the protagonist's survival, whether it's someone else's life or a ritual with unknown consequences.  One ending doesn't get all the "good stuff" (as with the theoretical "marriage and little blue children" ending); it's distributed over a variety of endings, so you've got to weigh up the less pleasant consequences of your choices against the positives that you really want.  

Incidentally: if, for some people, it turns out to be really possible to get a totally happy ending in DA:O, that really just reflects on the huge variety of roleplaying options that the game gives.  Maybe someone totally trusts Morrigan and believes that her ritual is the right thing to do, that it will "save" the archdemon's soul from corruption and give it another chance.  Alternatively, maybe someone is perfectly happy to let Loghain take the bullet, leaves Anora and Alistair to guide Ferelden into a golden age, and goes off adventuring with their lover, Leliana or Zevran.  But I don't think you can say that either of these is a one-size-fits-all happy ending.  By the time that the endgame choices come around, the roleplaying decisions that would eventually lead to these endings would, presumably, already be established (e.g. trusting Morrigan, or setting up Alistair and Anora's marriage, or loving Leliana or Zevran, etc.).

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm looking at you, Shepard - why did it have to be death AND derailment for you.

I know, right?  

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 octobre 2013 - 02:07 .

[Star fury]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...
How is "legitimacy," either popular or by birth, relevant to whether or not a character or ending is a Mary-Sue? (And, for simplicity's sake, let's just ignore the fact that if you lose the Landsmeet you were not accepted by the nobles as "popular nobility," instead you butchered your way against Loghain in the throne room rather than accept defeat). The fact that, in one scenario, the female Cousland may have won the throne in the Landsmeet hardly makes her any less of a Mary Sue in the marry Alistar/become queen quintessential Mary Sue ending (in fact it makes her more of a Mary Sue as she either had the know-how or popularity to win the Landsmeet). 

Exactly.

[Ieldra]

Estelindis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I said, it depends what "happy" means. There can only be a limited number of options, and if the only way my protagonist survives has them get a "marriage and little blue children" future, I'd rather have them dead, even though I want nothing more than an ending that's happy in other ways.

I see what you mean.  I think that DA:O points the way forward in this respect yet again: there is a price for the protagonist's survival, whether it's someone else's life or a ritual with unknown consequences.  One ending doesn't get all the "good stuff" (as with the theoretical "marriage and little blue children" ending); it's distributed over a variety of endings, so you've got to weigh up the less pleasant consequences of your choices against the positives that you really want.  

Incidentally: if, for some people, it turns out to be really possible to get a totally happy ending in DA:O, that really just reflects on the huge variety of roleplaying options that the game gives.  Maybe someone totally trusts Morrigan and believes that her ritual is the right thing to do, that it will "save" the archdemon's soul from corruption and give it another chance.  Alternatively, maybe someone is perfectly happy to let Loghain take the bullet, leaves Anora and Alistair to guide Ferelden into a golden age, and goes off adventuring with their lover, Leliana or Zevran.  But I don't think you can say that either of these is a one-size-fits-all happy ending.  By the time that the endgame choices come around, the roleplaying decisions that would eventually lead to these endings would, presumably, already be established (e.g. trusting Morrigan, or setting up Alistair and Anora's marriage, or loving Leliana or Zevran, etc.).

I'm one of those who got a really good ending out of DAO, since I would've supported Morrigan's ritual even if it hadn't saved my life, and my Warden loved Morrigan more for following her own destiny, even if it meant leaving him behind. It was the perfect ending with a complex set of emotions attached, and then Witch Hunt came and put the dot on the i.

As for "getting all the good stuff", you appear to misunderstand: the hypothetical "marriage and little blue children" is something I most emphatically do NOT want.  That's why I want agency over the specifics of endings rather than their general tone. I don't find it hard to accept a sad ending if I can identify with it, while I really don't care if any ending is supposed to be happy if it has elements I would never want for my protagonist.

[Estelindis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm one of those who got a really good ending out of DAO, since I would've supported Morrigan's ritual even if it hadn't saved my life, and my Warden loved Morrigan more for following her own destiny, even if it meant leaving him behind. It was the perfect ending with a complex set of emotions attached, and then Witch Hunt came and put the dot on the i.

It was totally the opposite for me.  My Warden wanted to trust Morrigan but couldn't get over her endorsing a blood magic ritual that would have killed Cyrion Tabris and other captive elves.  And in a subsequent "parallel universe" playthrough where a gamble was taken in spite of those feelings and the ritual did take place, no invitation was extended to go through the mirror and see how Alistair's child was doing (a child she was even more interested in because she'd never be able to have one with him herself).  I'm glad that this DLC satisfied some people, like you, but for my Warden it was just another kick in the teeth.  Again, I think this brilliantly outlines the wide-open space for roleplaying in DA:O.

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for "getting all the good stuff", you appear to misunderstand: the hypothetical "marriage and little blue children" is something I most emphatically do NOT want.  That's why I want agency over the specifics of endings rather than their general tone. I don't find it hard to accept a sad ending if I can identify with it, while I really don't care if any ending is supposed to be happy if it has elements I would never want for my protagonist.

It seems I do misunderstand - and I may be about to do so again!  I'm guessing, from your wording here, that rebellion against "little blue children" is partially about not being especially keen about Liara, in spite of the writing implying that we were all supposed to adore her.  So when you talk about the specifics of the ending, it's partially about having options that cater to your character's feelings about life, the world, and people who matter to them?  Some characters aren't going to want marriage, are going to find independence of spirit more interesting than settling down?  Some characters aren't going to want anything at all with certain blue ladies, but prefer other characters, who should get a role in the ending even if they aren't devs' favourites?

Well, how did you rate the ending of DA2 compared in DA:O, when it comes to choosing specifics rather than general tone?

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 octobre 2013 - 04:27 .

[Ieldra]

Estelindis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm one of those who got a really good ending out of DAO, since I would've supported Morrigan's ritual even if it hadn't saved my life, and my Warden loved Morrigan more for following her own destiny, even if it meant leaving him behind. It was the perfect ending with a complex set of emotions attached, and then Witch Hunt came and put the dot on the i.

It was totally the opposite for me.  My Warden wanted to trust Morrigan but couldn't get over her endorsing a blood magic ritual that would have killed Cyrion Tabris and other captive elves.  And in a subsequent "parallel universe" playthrough where a gamble was taken in spite of those feelings and the ritual did take place, no invitation was extended to go through the mirror and see how Alistair's child was doing (a child she was even more interested in because she'd never be able to have one with him herself).  I'm glad that this DLC satisfied some people, like you, but for my Warden it was just another kick in the teeth.  Again, I think this brilliantly outlines the wide-open space for roleplaying in DA:O.

I agree about that wide-open space. I never had the first problem since I only took her comment to mean I should seriously consider the option instead of rejecting it as a foregone conclusion (which most of my Wardens always do), and I never had the second problem since none of those who would be interested in following her romanced Alistair. So many permutations. I just hope DAI will have as many for some in-game decisions, even if things will eventually converge to fewer options for the next game.

Estelindis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for "getting all the good stuff", you appear to misunderstand: the hypothetical "marriage and little blue children" is something I most emphatically do NOT want.  That's why I want agency over the specifics of endings rather than their general tone. I don't find it hard to accept a sad ending if I can identify with it, while I really don't care if any ending is supposed to be happy if it has elements I would never want for my protagonist.

It seems I do misunderstand - and I may be about to do so again!  I'm guessing, from your wording here, that rebellion against "little blue children" is partially about not being especially keen about Liara, in spite of the writing implying that we were all supposed to adore her.  So when you talk about the specifics of the ending, it's partially about having options that cater to your character's feelings about life, the world, and people who matter to them?  Some characters aren't going to want marriage, are going to find independence of spirit more interesting than settling down?  Some characters aren't going to want anything at all with certain blue ladies, but prefer other characters, who should get a role in the ending even if they aren't devs' favourites?

I found it easy to avoid Liara, the "little blue babies" phrase is a convenient shorthand for a kind of outcome I usually dislike, regardless of character. And yes, my concerns are about keeping my characters as I envision them, and not being forced to see them do certain things or subscribe to certain personal values just because these values have been inextricably attached to a big-picture outcome I prefer. One example: a frequent assumption is that a "good" character also subscribes to certain notions of the sacred. Well, this happens to be completely false for most of my "main" protagonists. If I play "good" characters, then I am working for the tangible good of real people only.  

Well, how did you rate the ending of DA2 compared in DA:O, when it comes to choosing specifics rather than general tone?

I liked DAO's outcomes. Where they were specific in areas I would like a choice about, I was given a choice (for instance there was always some conversation about what my Warden would like to do after things had finished in Ferelden), I was never forced to subscribe to anything I wouldn't want, and it was never assumed that certain actions I took were rooted in certain philosophical stances, except where I had expressed those. This was all done while still being specific enough that the endings felt immediately real. A perfect setup, as far as I'm concerned.  

I would've loved for DA2's outcomes to be similarly specific and "choosable", and I was a little disappointed in what we got for an epilogue, but I can live with it since DA2's outcomes were also not constricting. I didn't have a Hawke I found rejected in spirit by the ending.

ME3, however, was the opposite. Not too long ago, I wrote a thread about how ME3 unmade my Shepard. That's something I never want to see again.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Estelindis]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I liked DAO's outcomes. Where they were specific in areas I would like a choice about, I was given a choice (for instance there was always some conversation about what my Warden would like to do after things had finished in Ferelden), I was never forced to subscribe to anything I wouldn't want, and it was never assumed that certain actions I took were rooted in certain philosophical stances, except where I had expressed those. This was all done while still being specific enough that the endings felt immediately real. A perfect setup, as far as I'm concerned.   

I would've loved for DA2's outcomes to be similarly specific and "choosable", and I was a little disappointed in what we got for an epilogue, but I can live with it since DA2's outcomes were also not constricting. I didn't have a Hawke I found rejected in spirit by the ending.

ME3, however, was the opposite. Not too long ago, I wrote a thread about how ME3 unmade my Shepard. That's something I never want to see again.

Firstly, thanks for the responses to the other stuff.  I think I actually understand where you're coming from now, whereas I just had a vague and somewhat inaccurate idea before.  I think that the different origins themselves constitute a large part of what helped us to have such varying RPing approaches in DA:O.  Even then, there's a lot of potential for variance even between Wardens of the same origins. 

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who sees DA:O's endings as great in terms of responsiveness.  The only thing I would have liked in DA:O at the end that wasn't already there would have been the ability for my Warden to tell everyone that they should be celebrating Alistair as the hero of Ferelden, not her.

Fair enough about your point re. DA2.  It is actually quite open-ended after the final battle.  It doesn't impose a certain interpretation on Hawke.  I wonder if a certain openness can come from the fact that Varric is telling and interpreting the story?  Even if he spins things a certain way, one can easily imagine Hawke having a different attitude or motivation.  If you look at the whole story that way, though, Hawke really becomes a cipher.  Almost anything you choose to have her/him say or do could have been different, so is there actually such a thing as the "real" Hawke behind it all?

I find what you say about not making assumptions about the protagonist's values very important and interesting.  I agree that it's good that the game doesn't force one to take a particular spiritual or philosophical stance in order to be a "good," "bad," or, frankly, indifferent person.  It's nice to see that this applies to characters in the world itself as well, e.g. there are nice, reasonable chantry members as well as fanatics.  That sort of thing actually helps to support openness re. one's protagonist.  For instance, to continue the example, if the every believer in the Maker who you met was good, honest, and honourable, and the chantry had a wholly positive role in society, whereas every character who didn't believe in the chantry's teachings was deeply morally dubious, and their organizations always harmed people, it would be a lot harder to sustain a believable protagonist who, on the one hand, is a good and kind person, but still thinks the chantry is terrible and supports its opponents.  Of course, this is an arbitrary example and could apply to pretty much anything in Thedas where there are differing viewpoints.  

I'm going to have a look at that thread about ME3 unmaking your Shepard now.  On the whole, I have confidence in the Dragon Age writers that I've lost in the Mass Effect ones (which is really sad because of all the genuinely great writing in ME3 - e.g. Mordin, Legion - alongside the bad stuff).

[DatOneFanboy]

Ending Should be Player's Option, But i dont blame Bioware, Every ****ing sht tier Movie and Game out there has a happy ending just to please the masses, its not artistic anymore

[Beerfish]

Not all player character endings have been bad but the op has a point as the trendy thing is to in the end make them have a miserable ending. I am not opposed to miserable parts for the player in a game series but I do like a happy if not satisfying ending for a series. (This is where ME totally and utterly blew it.)

[TheButterflyEffect]

Just because there is actually a "reward" for playing a game for countless hours doesn't make it junk.

[errant_knight]

The problem with 'happy endings' is they don't push the story forward in interesting ways or reflect that Bioware creates imperfect worlds, which is what makes *them* interesting. They could give an illusion of a happy ending, but then the player would feel betrayed when the next game came out and your happy ending was revealed to be an ephemeral dream. Also, our characters are heroes. They can't show that massive problems still exist, leading into the next game, and have our characters take up a bucolic life without making it look like they abandoned their responsibility. That being said, I'm going to be seriously irked if we find the bones of the warden and Hawke in some cave in the deep roads

[Dabrikishaw]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

 It's a consistent theme in all your goddamn games.

Everyone always gets to live happily ever after at the end. With the sole exception of... the player character.

Seriously? Why the hell can the protagonist never, ever, EVER earn a happy ending, even after all their hard work?

I'd say "Dude, where the hell is my respect?" but that would be a little redundant. The hero has saved everyone's sorry asses and still nobody ever treats them with the slightest ounce of respect, so why can't they just retire to a little place and live as a hermit with their love interest?

It never happens. It's always gloom and doom. Death, unhealthy or broken relationships, etc, etc...

Which brings me to the point of, why is the protagonist also the only person who can never have healthy romantic relationships? Every other couple gets together nice and easy peasy, no muss, no fuss, no "complicated" garbage... the hero, on the other hand, despite being the most awesome person ever, kinda gets "left at the altar", so to speak...

1. Sequels
2. Other characters only have happy endings if you let them.

Modifié par Dabrikishaw, 28 octobre 2013 - 04:02 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Just because there is actually a "reward" for playing a game for countless hours doesn't make it junk.

Tragedies come with unhappy, but satisfying and thematically appropriate endings.  I'd call that a decent reward for sinking a bunch of hours into any piece of fiction.  And IMO happy endings that are thematically inappropriate or feel like deus ex machina are no reward at all.

While I agree that the recent trend toward grimdark for the sake of grimdark is somewhat tiresome, happy endings can be just as bleh if executed poorly.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 27 octobre 2013 - 08:21 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I can't believe this thread is still on-going.

This is basically just another "I liked the ending of [insert BW game]" versus "I did not like the ending of [insert BW game]" thread.

And of course each side pretends the other fans don't exist.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 27 octobre 2013 - 06:49 .

[Gold Dragon]

Especially since the disappearances of the Warden-Commander and the Champion of Kirkwall could also be Bioware leaving the door open for them to become the protagonist of a later game in the Dragon Age Series.

My personal favourite is:  The Inquisitor disappears mysteriously, And a fourth protagonist is created for DA 4.  That one disappears as well, and for the fifth game, you start off as one of the former protagonists, gather the others, and All 4 are in your party at the end-game.


Tip to the Wise:  Don't put anything past David Gaider.  He might think it hilarious to actually DO it.  (P.S. this goes for any other good writer/Game Developer).

[errant_knight]

Besides, yr character is more likely to have a happy life if they disappear than if they appear in a sequel, lol.

[Shadow Fox]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Star fury wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I wish that Bioware would allow a female protagonist to have a happy ending.

Female Cousland ending when she marries Alistair and becomes a queen-consort is one Mary Sue ending.  I struggle to think a happier ending in a videogame, albeit it has one caveat which is only good. 

How is that Mary Sue? The Couslands were popular noblity so they accepted her as a queen.

It looks a lot like an ending for bad fanfics or romantic novels. I prefer an ending where Alistair rejects heartbroken female warden.

You do know that the only reason he has a  rather shakey claim himself is he's Maric's bastard right?Wheras Fem Cousland is a legitimate daugther to a popular noble family.

How is "legitimacy," either popular or by birth, relevant to whether or not a character or ending is a Mary-Sue? (And, for simplicity's sake, let's just ignore the fact that if you lose the Landsmeet you were not accepted by the nobles as "popular nobility," instead you butchered your way against Loghain in the throne room rather than accept defeat). The fact that, in one scenario, the female Cousland may have won the throne in the Landsmeet hardly makes her any less of a Mary Sue in the marry Alistar/become queen quintessential Mary Sue ending (in fact it makes her more of a Mary Sue as she either had the know-how or popularity to win the Landsmeet). 

Often abbreviated to "Sue". A Mary Sue character is usually written by a beginning author. Often, the Mary Sue is a self-insert with a few "improvements" (ex. better body, more popular, etc). The Mary Sue character is almost always beautiful, smart, etc... In short, she is the "perfect" girl. The Mary Sue usually falls in love with the author's favorite character(s) and winds up upstaging all of the other characters in the book/series/universe.

To me that isn't a Sue ending because Cousland arguably has a stronger claim then Alistiar himself for me for something to be sue it has to contradict the setting to allow the character's desires such as an Elf,Mage or Dwarf becoming royalty without issue.

[Mathias]

All I know is in my top 5 favorite RPGs of all time, 3 of them had really bright and happy endings:

Final Fantasy VI
Dragon Quest VIII
Valkyria Chronicles

All great games. All had high quality writing. All had really happy endings.

[Ianamus]

The only Bioware game where the protagonist was unable to have a remotely happy ending was Mass Effect 3. Every other game was fine in this regard.

[Uccio]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As I said, it depends what "happy" means. There can only be a limited number of options, and if the only way my protagonist survives has them get a "marriage and little blue children" future, I'd rather have them dead, even though I want nothing more than an ending that's happy in other ways.

I see what you mean.  I think that DA:O points the way forward in this respect yet again: there is a price for the protagonist's survival, whether it's someone else's life or a ritual with unknown consequences.  One ending doesn't get all the "good stuff" (as with the theoretical "marriage and little blue children" ending); it's distributed over a variety of endings, so you've got to weigh up the less pleasant consequences of your choices against the positives that you really want.  

Incidentally: if, for some people, it turns out to be really possible to get a totally happy ending in DA:O, that really just reflects on the huge variety of roleplaying options that the game gives.  Maybe someone totally trusts Morrigan and believes that her ritual is the right thing to do, that it will "save" the archdemon's soul from corruption and give it another chance.  Alternatively, maybe someone is perfectly happy to let Loghain take the bullet, leaves Anora and Alistair to guide Ferelden into a golden age, and goes off adventuring with their lover, Leliana or Zevran.  But I don't think you can say that either of these is a one-size-fits-all happy ending.  By the time that the endgame choices come around, the roleplaying decisions that would eventually lead to these endings would, presumably, already be established (e.g. trusting Morrigan, or setting up Alistair and Anora's marriage, or loving Leliana or Zevran, etc.).

I'm one of those who got a really good ending out of DAO, since I would've supported Morrigan's ritual even if it hadn't saved my life, and my Warden loved Morrigan more for following her own destiny, even if it meant leaving him behind. It was the perfect ending with a complex set of emotions attached, and then Witch Hunt came and put the dot on the i.

As for "getting all the good stuff", you appear to misunderstand: the hypothetical "marriage and little blue children" is something I most emphatically do NOT want.  That's why I want agency over the specifics of endings rather than their general tone. I don't find it hard to accept a sad ending if I can identify with it, while I really don't care if any ending is supposed to be happy if it has elements I would never want for my protagonist.

Side note: some of us do want that happy ever after with little blue children. It just should require more effort and should not be easily achieved.

[errant_knight]

o.o Blue? That doesn't sound good....

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

o.o Blue? That doesn't sound good....

Mass Effect reference. =P

[whogotsalami]

I consider a couple of endings in DAO as happy endings. Certainly marrying a King or Queen isn't a bad thing