202 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would appreciate people not assuming that 'realistic' automatically means tragic and sucky.

Because it doesn't.

Not to you maybe. Then again, people aren't obligated to do anything for you in a video game, or with their preferences.

He is not, however, incorrect in the belief that reality isn't inherently terrible.

It's not. Reality is awesome. That's why I'm an atheist.

[Shadow Fox]

Annie_Dear wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Alistair got to be king. I got to be a stiff corpse.

After spending over 100 hours and 3 goddamn games with him/her, Shepard simply went poof like they were nothing. While everyone else got to live happily ever after.

Yes, they were either forced to:

a) have all technology destroyed
forced to fight the Reapers later
c) forced to mix their DNA with technology

And let's not forget all those people who died and how Earth is most likely a ruin.

Also, it was your choice to be a stiff corpse. We have a saying in Finland: "One sleeps like one makes his bed." Actions have consequences. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Damn that's...really bad.

[errant_knight]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would appreciate people not assuming that 'realistic' automatically means tragic and sucky.

Because it doesn't.

Not to you maybe. Then again, people aren't obligated to do anything for you in a video game, or with their preferences.

He is not, however, incorrect in the belief that reality isn't inherently terrible.

It's not. Reality is awesome. That's why I'm an atheist.

Whoa, that was uncalled for.

[Shadow Fox]

errant_knight wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would appreciate people not assuming that 'realistic' automatically means tragic and sucky.

Because it doesn't.

Not to you maybe. Then again, people aren't obligated to do anything for you in a video game, or with their preferences.

He is not, however, incorrect in the belief that reality isn't inherently terrible.

It's not. Reality is awesome. That's why I'm an atheist.

Whoa, that was uncalled for.

I was really hoping they were'nt implying that religion is delusional.

[rekn2]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would appreciate people not assuming that 'realistic' automatically means tragic and sucky.

Because it doesn't.

Not to you maybe. Then again, people aren't obligated to do anything for you in a video game, or with their preferences.

He is not, however, incorrect in the belief that reality isn't inherently terrible.

It's not. Reality is awesome. That's why I'm an atheist.

Whoa, that was uncalled for.

I was really hoping they were'nt implying that religion is delusional.

thats exactly what they mean

[Shadow Fox]

rekn2 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I would appreciate people not assuming that 'realistic' automatically means tragic and sucky.

Because it doesn't.

Not to you maybe. Then again, people aren't obligated to do anything for you in a video game, or with their preferences.

He is not, however, incorrect in the belief that reality isn't inherently terrible.

It's not. Reality is awesome. That's why I'm an atheist.

Whoa, that was uncalled for.

I was really hoping they were'nt implying that religion is delusional.

thats exactly what they mean

Thought so but I'd hoped they'd have more class then that.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, I can see my comment got blown terribly out of proportion.

I'm simply stating that Xil, and apparently David, believe that reality is inherently terrible. And I'm disputing that.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, I can see my comment got blown terribly out of proportion.

I'm simply stating that Xil, and apparently David, believe that reality is inherently terrible. And I'm disputing that.

Actually, we're stating the exact opposite.

[MrMrPendragon]

Nowadays, those "dark plot twist" endings are becoming increasingly common that it's right at the border of being cliche.

Storytellers have a way of thinking that, for the lack of a better term, "dark endings", are automatically profound and memorable because it makes you think.

But the fact of the matter is, even if you do it right, the "moody plot twist" is just not "closure material" that whatever the intended effect of the ending is, it's just going to go down as

"A failed attempt by a smart-*ss writer trying to sound and look sophisticated by making a twist ending that really doesn't do anyone any good"

Which ultimately leaves a lot of unanswered questions and speculations (which a GOOD story SHOULDN'T have), and more importantly, a bad landmark in the story that players will inevitably see every time they play the game - ESPECIALLY this game, since it has a lot of replay value.

Dark is no more profound than happy. Say it with me. "Dark in no more profound than happy".

I know you can't really judge an author's work by the these standards, but damn, you can't just pass everything as "oh it's the author's story, he gets to play with it" - especially since Bioware lets the players add to that story through choices that don't matter.


With that being said,

If the Maker shows up at the last 15 minutes of Inquisition as some sort of terribly-voiced elven orphan child, offering me the chance to control, or destroy (or have them posses me lol) the goddamn spirits and demons of the veil, because for some reason he can't do it, I'm going to flip.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:11 .

[rekn2]

Xilizhra wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Well, I can see my comment got blown terribly out of proportion.

I'm simply stating that Xil, and apparently David, believe that reality is inherently terrible. And I'm disputing that.

Actually, we're stating the exact opposite.

no, youre saying exactly what hes saying, just from a different dimension.

[Boiny Bunny]

Personally, I don't feel that an ending has to be 'dark' in order for it to not feel cliched. I'd just like to see less 'have your cake and eat it too' offered to the player. If a hard choice is going to be offered, but oh well don't worry because no matter what you decide you can fix the thing you didn't choose anyway, there isn't a point in having the choice in the first place.

For example, I felt that the Ash/Kaiden choice in ME1 worked reasonably well (though I wouldn't have said it was the most well portrayed death I've seen in a video game), because you pick one and are stuck with it. If there was a secret way to save the other person, regardless of what you had to do to unlock it, it would remove all of the emotional impact and power of having the choice in the first place.

So essentially, if you're going to have a 'perfect' ending where everybody lives (+ other criteria depending on the game), don't bother dramatising the choices leading up to the ending, pretending like it's not possible.

Broadly speaking, I'd like to see a few more character deaths in games like those Bioware usually makes. In my books, it tends to stretch the boundaries of what I'm willing to accept as realism when in the middle of a war, every character seems to survive every time. Again though, that doesn't necessarily mean 'dark'.

The Witcher 1 also had a kind of interesting ending IMO, where regardless of who you side with (including remaining neutral), eventually the peace breaks down and the old racial hatreds arise again. It was refreshing (at the time) to get the message that you made some difference to the lives of those that you knew at the time, but the actions of one man weren't enough to change the entire course of history when it came to the racial issues which were a big focus in that game. Of course, you have to be mighty careful with that kind of ending also, lest you end up making the player feel like all of their choices were meaningless...

I suppose everybody wants a different thing from a video game story.  I'm sure there are plenty of gamers out there who just want to be the sparkling hero who saves everybody without ever suffering any losses, and rainbows and unicorns, etc.  That probably applies if you primarily view video games as a form of escapism.  I prefer to view games as a form of art - I don't need to feel 'empowered' by a game - I just want it to immerse me and have an interesting/powerful plot that I'll remember for years to come.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 30 octobre 2013 - 05:55 .

[Rhiens VI]

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...
If the Maker shows up at the last 15 minutes of Inquisition as some sort of terribly-voiced elven orphan child, offering me the chance to control, or destroy (or have them posses me lol) the goddamn spirits and demons of the veil, because for some reason he can't do it, I'm going to flip.

This one is getting very old, and very boring. Time to get over your ME3 ending hate, really.

[Estelindis]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I felt that the Ash/Kaiden choice in ME1 worked reasonably well (though I wouldn't have said it was the most well portrayed death I've seen in a video game), because you pick one and are stuck with it. If there was a secret way to save the other person, regardless of what you had to do to unlock it, it would remove all of the emotional impact and power of having the choice in the first place.

So essentially, if you're going to have a 'perfect' ending where everybody lives (+ other criteria depending on the game), don't bother dramatising the choices leading up to the ending, pretending like it's not possible.

I agree.  Well said.  It makes these situations feel very real when there are mutually exclusive choices and each has a clear consequence.  Of course, the effect of what happened with Ash and Kaidan was watered down subsequently with them filling identical plot roles in ME2 and ME3.  

Boiny Bunny wrote...

The Witcher 1 also had a kind of interesting ending IMO, where regardless of who you side with (including remaining neutral), eventually the peace breaks down and the old racial hatreds arise again. It was refreshing (at the time) to get the message that you made some difference to the lives of those that you knew at the time, but the actions of one man weren't enough to change the entire course of history when it came to the racial issues which were a big focus in that game.

I liked this as well.  Of course, The Witcher 2 gave a huge sense of choice and consequence with the mid-game branching.

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I prefer to view games as a form of art - I don't need to feel 'empowered' by a game - I just want it to immerse me and have an interesting/powerful plot that I'll remember for years to come.

I feel the same way.  The bittersweet ending I got in the case of DA:O has stayed with me ever since.  While I was a bit angry about it at the time, and even felt a little betrayed, it wasn't a feeling at all like the bewildered "Why would anyone write that???" that I got at the end of ME3.  I knew why the Dragon Age writers went for the DA:O ending that I got: to punch me in the feels.  And they did.  They got the delicious fan tears that are their unholy nectar.  For me, the DA:O ending was memorable in the right way...   It's the difference between fame and infamy.  I will certainly remember the ME3 ending, but for all the wrong reasons. 

I guess I feel that an ending should be like the keystone of an arch.  It may shock or surprise, but it should do so in a way that's coherent with the universe of the game, that supports the overall structure rather than allowing it to fall down in pieces.  Again, this doesn't mean that an ending can't change the game's world, that something can't fall down in pieces, but that change has to come from within the world rather than just being "what a twiiiiiiist!"  For instance, the Kirkwall Chantry exploding in very literal pieces is founded in the mage-templar conflict that has been building since the start of the series.  It's not a starchild appearing from nowhere.

Rhiens VI wrote...

This one is getting very old, and very boring. Time to get over your ME3 ending hate, really.

It's not as if we want to hate the ending.  It's just impossible for many of us not to do so, taking into account how poorly planned and written it was (in my opinion).  Naturally, I want Bioware to learn from the experience of the ME3 ending so that the particular mistakes made in it don't happen again.  And it's important to point out what those mistakes were (thematically incoherent, logically inconsistent, and ethically abhorrent), and what they weren't ("unhappy"), so that our criticism is not misunderstood.

[Rhiens VI]

Estelindis wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...

This one is getting very old, and very boring. Time to get over your ME3 ending hate, really.

It's not as if we want to hate the ending.

I don't know. Maybe not you, but some posters around BSN to this day revel in their ME3 hate. Which is both amusing and a little sad.

 It's just impossible for many of us not to do so, taking into account how poorly planned and written it was (in my opinion).

Original endings were pretty bad, because they lacked essential content. Extended Cut (and also Leviathan) fixed most of the problems, at least for me.

And it's important to point out what those mistakes were (thematically incoherent, logically inconsistent, and ethically abhorrent),

But I disagree with your list of mistakes. With the EC, I find it coherent enough. There are some inconsistencies, they happen everywhere.  I'd say they are unavoidable in a project of this scale. And "ethically abhorrent"? How so? Ethically difficult, each with a heavy price attached, yes. But "abhorrent"? That's a very subjective opinion, and I wouldn't want Bioware correct their storylines based on individual gamer's moral judgement.

[Boycott Bioware]

I have played Dreamfall 2 : The Longest (Boring) Journey...it is actually an okay game for those who love story. The story itself is not bad actually but for a game it is depressing and disappointing. The reason is because the main character is set up to fail every time and having a sad ending

The story is about a girl named Joey, she have a reporter boyfriend who get involved in investigatng some secret project of mind control device that planned to be released through a game company. her boyfriend is missing. She also get some premonition experience being contacted by a ghost girl that appear through computers and TVs telling her to save other girl in a fantasy land, that girl name is April Ryan.As you progress in the game the quest are

i. find out what happen to her boyfriend
ii. find out who the ghost girl is
iii. saving April ryan in fantasy land
iv. stop the evil company

You will fail all quests as demanded by the story, you will meet the ghost girl and find out who she really is and what happen to her, she is actually her long dead never known sister...but you will fail to find her boyfriend and saving April Ryan. What worse is you will fail the final quest that is to stop the evil company from releasing the mind control device. The ending is...Joey got into coma after being injected by her own mother who involved in the project.

It is bad...the whole thing will make you feel like want to take the monitor and throw it out through the window. Like i said the game is actually okay, the story is actually okay and interesting, but the main character is destined to fail in every spot and the end is she failed utterly

Fans are disappointed by that. The game did make you attach to it, because you want to find out more, want answers, you will stick to it if you are not a fast boring type of a person, but it is not rewarding...not only it don't explain what is going on because there's to much jump plots, the ending make you scream "nooooo!!!"....i do feel sympathy to Joey, she don't deserve that ending

Edit : The device is actually accidentally connecting the real world with the fantasy land, so i assume by saving April Ryan she could sabotage the company through the fantasy land, but that is not an option at all, there is no option for that, April Ryan is destined to dead

I see the similar thing with Hawke...

Modifié par Qistina, 30 octobre 2013 - 04:08 .

[Estelindis]

Rhiens VI wrote...
I disagree with your list of mistakes. With the EC, I find it coherent enough. There are some inconsistencies, they happen everywhere.  I'd say they are unavoidable in a project of this scale. And "ethically abhorrent"? How so? Ethically difficult, each with a heavy price attached, yes. But "abhorrent"? That's a very subjective opinion, and I wouldn't want Bioware correct their storylines based on individual gamer's moral judgement. 

I don't want to get into it fully here, because it's off-topic.  I'll just point you to the quote from Drayfish in my sig, which summarises a lot of my thought and which I think still applies to the EC, even though it's a more polished ending overall.  But Bioware won't correct their storylines based on what a single person thinks.  They'll only do it based on a lot of people.  However, we can't get this mass of people unless a whole lot of individuals share their judgements, as I am doing.

I mean just look as Sylvius the Mad.  In order to make a game that would satisfy him, they would have to focus on a lot of things that wouldn't be priorities for the majority of gamers.  But at least he puts his views out there.  If he didn't, they wouldn't know that anyone wants what he wants.  If a huge number of people didn't speak out, Bioware also wouldn't know what they wanted.  So all our views are subjective, but if enough people put a particular view out there then Bioware might do well to take it into account.

[MrMrPendragon]

Rhiens VI wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...
If the Maker shows up at the last 15 minutes of Inquisition as some sort of terribly-voiced elven orphan child, offering me the chance to control, or destroy (or have them posses me lol) the goddamn spirits and demons of the veil, because for some reason he can't do it, I'm going to flip.

This one is getting very old, and very boring. Time to get over your ME3 ending hate, really.

I don't hate it man. Well I do, but not a lot (anymore).

I was trying to say that it could've gone better than that. For a game that's trying to emphasize your choice, your were forced to accept the Catalyst's logic and work from there. No matter how you look at it, there was no choice, because you had to play along, no matter how flawed you think the Catalyst is. I mean isn't this thread about endings? Well the ending of ME3 was trying so hard not to be an ending - which pretty much contradicted the its whole purpose.

I like high EMS destroy well enough to leave ME3 in peace, because that was the only ending for me that attempted to close the series.

[AlanC9]

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...
I was trying to say that it could've gone better than that. For a game that's trying to emphasize your choice, your were forced to accept the Catalyst's logic and work from there. No matter how you look at it, there was no choice, because you had to play along, no matter how flawed you think the Catalyst is. 

I don't see how you get "accepting the Catalyst's logic" there. Whatever Shepard thinks or doesn't think , the Crucible does what it does.

[Mecha Elf]

I'd love a happily ever after if its an option ah, but if someone wants an ending that's not so happy they can have that too

[Shechem]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Alistair got to be king. I got to be a stiff corpse.

After spending over 100 hours and 3 goddamn games with him/her, Shepard simply went poof like they were nothing. While everyone else got to live happily ever after.

Yes, they were either forced to:

a) have all technology destroyed
forced to fight the Reapers later
c) forced to mix their DNA with technology

And let's not forget all those people who died and how Earth is most likely a ruin.

Also, it was your choice to be a stiff corpse. We have a saying in Finland: "One sleeps like one makes his bed." Actions have consequences. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Damn that's...really bad.

Sort of. Having to blow up all the machines actually works out pretty well to your advantage (that is, you get to, well, not die.) I really don't see the big deal about blowing up all machines, including EDI and the Geth. They can be rebuilt like any old bucket of bolts. I have no empathy for them.

[Han Shot First]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

 Seriously? Why the hell can the protagonist never, ever, EVER earn a happy ending, even after all their hard work?

You haven't read many books, watched many films, or have played many games if you think the protagonist living happily ever after never happens.

Its even more cliché than the hero sacrificing himself/herself.

[Shadow Fox]

Shechem wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Alistair got to be king. I got to be a stiff corpse.

After spending over 100 hours and 3 goddamn games with him/her, Shepard simply went poof like they were nothing. While everyone else got to live happily ever after.

Yes, they were either forced to:

a) have all technology destroyed
forced to fight the Reapers later
c) forced to mix their DNA with technology

And let's not forget all those people who died and how Earth is most likely a ruin.

Also, it was your choice to be a stiff corpse. We have a saying in Finland: "One sleeps like one makes his bed." Actions have consequences. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Damn that's...really bad.

Sort of. Having to blow up all the machines actually works out pretty well to your advantage (that is, you get to, well, not die.) I really don't see the big deal about blowing up all machines, including EDI and the Geth. They can be rebuilt like any old bucket of bolts. I have no empathy for them.

Well destroying all technology kinda implies sending the universe into a dark age.

[Shechem]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Shechem wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Alistair got to be king. I got to be a stiff corpse.

After spending over 100 hours and 3 goddamn games with him/her, Shepard simply went poof like they were nothing. While everyone else got to live happily ever after.

Yes, they were either forced to:

a) have all technology destroyed
forced to fight the Reapers later
c) forced to mix their DNA with technology

And let's not forget all those people who died and how Earth is most likely a ruin.

Also, it was your choice to be a stiff corpse. We have a saying in Finland: "One sleeps like one makes his bed." Actions have consequences. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Damn that's...really bad.

Sort of. Having to blow up all the machines actually works out pretty well to your advantage (that is, you get to, well, not die.) I really don't see the big deal about blowing up all machines, including EDI and the Geth. They can be rebuilt like any old bucket of bolts. I have no empathy for them.

Well destroying all technology kinda implies sending the universe into a dark age.

But, it can be rebuilt. It's a heckuva lot better than everyone being dead or turned into the Green Lantern Corps.

[Shadow Fox]

Shechem wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Shechem wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

Alistair got to be king. I got to be a stiff corpse.

After spending over 100 hours and 3 goddamn games with him/her, Shepard simply went poof like they were nothing. While everyone else got to live happily ever after.

Yes, they were either forced to:

a) have all technology destroyed
forced to fight the Reapers later
c) forced to mix their DNA with technology

And let's not forget all those people who died and how Earth is most likely a ruin.

Also, it was your choice to be a stiff corpse. We have a saying in Finland: "One sleeps like one makes his bed." Actions have consequences. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Damn that's...really bad.

Sort of. Having to blow up all the machines actually works out pretty well to your advantage (that is, you get to, well, not die.) I really don't see the big deal about blowing up all machines, including EDI and the Geth. They can be rebuilt like any old bucket of bolts. I have no empathy for them.

Well destroying all technology kinda implies sending the universe into a dark age.

But, it can be rebuilt. It's a heckuva lot better than everyone being dead or turned into the Green Lantern Corps.

Perhaps but not quickly and without a lot of death and suffering along the way.

[Rhiens VI]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Well destroying all technology kinda implies sending the universe into a dark age.

What? Whoever said the technology is destroyed, obviously didn't play the game.

With high level of galactic readiness, nothing is destroyed except advanced AI such as the Geth and EDI. The technology, the space flight and even mass relays are intact.