375 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Well I usualy get a bit angry when my companions have those really great plan of theirs.
And then obviously they just won't talk about what the plan is about , but if you are truly a friend you have to follow them.Because if you don't , well they obviously feel betrayed.

I mean Morrigan , Anders , Isabela , Merrill , all ask for some leap of faith.Somehow their wonderful plans always end up in death.

[Ieldra]

David Gaider wrote...
My impression has always been that ANY character who doesn't put the player first above their own desires is betraying them. Those characters should realize the player is saving the world, or otherwise simply deserving of getting what they want, because the player can rationalize it.

In other words, it's another case of "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Calling it "betrayal" certainly makes it sound objectively worse than "they made me angry", however.

...and if characters start putting the player first, there's the opposite faction (of which I'm part of) who'd complain about characters fawning over the PC all the time and having no opinions of their own.

[Killdren88]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
My impression has always been that ANY character who doesn't put the player first above their own desires is betraying them. Those characters should realize the player is saving the world, or otherwise simply deserving of getting what they want, because the player can rationalize it.

In other words, it's another case of "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Calling it "betrayal" certainly makes it sound objectively worse than "they made me angry", however.

...and if characters start putting the player first, there's the opposite faction (of which I'm part of) who'd complain about characters fawning over the PC all the time and having no opinions of their own.

Shepard Syndrome. All companions are yes-men.

[David7204]

It's perfectly reasonable for companions to approve of the player character succeeding. You ought to consider whether companions have 'no opinions' or if they simply share the opinions of the player character.

I have no interest in a team with half the people eagerly advocating cruelty and greed. Or a team where half the people respond positively to rudeness. It would just come off as ridiculous and cartoony. The developers would have enough difficulty justifying a single such companion. Let alone several.

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 07:53 .

[Bizantura]

Lie, cheat, betrayel all properties of everyday politicians and that is no problem at all.
When they have a mistress then for a lot of people moral kicks in and the policician can get in deep dudu.

Morrigan a facinating misterious caracter. I like to find out what she's up to......
What many call selfserving I see as very focused towards a goal and if that is for bad or good we will have to wait and see.

[Dave of Canada]

Killdren88 wrote...

Shepard Syndrome. All companions are yes-men.

Mass Effect 2 in which companions who defended keeping the Collector Base but praise you for blowing it up was hilarious. There's totally some consistency there.

[Hazegurl]

HiroVoid wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

My impression has always been that ANY character who doesn't put the player first above their own desires is betraying them. Those characters should realize the player is saving the world, or otherwise simply deserving of getting what they want, because the player can rationalize it.

In other words, it's another case of "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Calling it "betrayal" certainly makes it sound objectively worse than "they made me angry", however.

Hmm.....so does that means it would be an exaggeration to say that Alistair betrays the Grey Wardens (or Grey Warden cause) for not participating in fighting the blight at the end if you let Loghain live?  I can understand why he would leave since he feels betrayed, but I would still think it would count as betrayal under 'desertion'.

Hm, I would say that Alistair betrays the warden if you the player says he did. I personally never felt betrayed by Alistair  per se but IMO I believe he did betray the people of Fereldan and the Grey Wardens as a whole. He is duty bound to end the Blight yet he leaves his own country and possibly the entire world to burn all because of talk of Loghain joining.  For all he knew Loghain could have died during the joining. 

 He knows more than anyone that they are needed now more than ever. He's a deserter plain and simple and shouldn't sit on the throne much less live. But I always let him live. lol

[ParkBom]

This thread was fun to read. 10/10

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Why is it that in most threads about killing Morrigan, the proponents always seem to have awful grammar and a loose grip on sanity?

[David7204]

That seems to be the case for proponents of 'evil' actions in general.

There seems to be a lesson here.

[David7204]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mass Effect 2 in which companions who defended keeping the Collector Base but praise you for blowing it up was hilarious. There's totally some consistency there.

What companions were those, exactly? Be very specific.

[SgtSteel91]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

Shepard Syndrome. All companions are yes-men.

Mass Effect 2 in which companions who defended keeping the Collector Base but praise you for blowing it up was hilarious. There's totally some consistency there.

I thought they disaproved of giving it to Cerberus. But I'm also sure that Legion was inconsistent with the decision.

edit:

Actually Legion would say keeping the base would save lives, but you're being creatively steril by accepting paths the Reapers laid out.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mass Effect 2 in which companions who defended keeping the Collector Base but praise you for blowing it up was hilarious. There's totally some consistency there.

What companions were those, exactly? Be very specific.

Garrus, Zaeed, Grunt, Legion, Mordin and Morinth.

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I thought they disaproved of giving it to Cerberus. But I'm also sure that Legion was inconsistent with the decision.

Legion was the most inconsistent one but the others are pretty terrible too, I think it's Mordin who practically calls you an idiot despite saying the base was valuable and should be kept.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:05 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Just as it is perfectly reasonable for companions to approve of player character's success(implying the success in reaching the player's goals, both personal and otherwise), it is reasonable for them to disapprove of things the player character considers to be right.

They carry their own personalities, their own view of the world(Morrigan's being survival of the fittest). It is ridiculous to ask for characters who only approve of what you do. It is even more ridiculous if companions are people who can only disapprove of what you do, but cannot take action(being chained to the player for no reason other than player's own convenience).

Whine when a character disapproves of your action for no reason, not when they have perfectly good reason to do so.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[David7204]

Unless I'm mistaken, which I doubt, not a single one of those companions praise you for blowing up the base. You seem to be making up complete nonsense. There's totally some consistency there.

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

Unless I'm mistaken, which I doubt, not a single one of those companions praise you for blowing up the base. You seem to be making up complete nonsense. There's totally some consistency there.

Yes, I'm making up complete nonsense. The fact that everyone scolds you for keeping the base and everyone praises you for destroying it wasn't a topic of discussion during the ME2 era of the BSN, I'm just making it up.

[SgtSteel91]

David7204 wrote...

Unless I'm mistaken, which I doubt, not a single one of those companions praise you for blowing up the base. You seem to be making up complete nonsense. There's totally some consistency there.

I think they praise you for denying the morally bankrupt Illusive Man the base.

[David7204]

Here's the facts. Garrus does not praise you for blowing up the base. Mordin does not praise you for blowing up the base. Legion does not praise you for blowing up the base. Grunt does not praise you for blowing up the base. Zaeed does not praise you for blowing up the base. I'm afraid I can't say for Morinth.

Now, they praise Shepard in general. For, you know, completing the mission and all. Killing collectors. But the base isn't part of their dialogue.

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

Shepard Syndrome. All companions are yes-men.

Mass Effect 2 in which companions who defended keeping the Collector Base but praise you for blowing it up was hilarious. There's totally some consistency there.

Eh that's not yes men syndrome considering they all give you the stink eye for saving it.

Legion actually made sense though. He was pointing out that how the data was found/created wasn't relevant to whether or not you should use it.

It was more of an issue of you giving it to TIM.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[David7204]

I can for certain that Miranda does praise Shepard for blowing the base. Samara does. Thane does. But I'm pretty sure they're the only ones who do.

[SgtSteel91]

David7204 wrote...

Here's the facts. Garrus does not praise you for blowing up the base. Mordin does not praise you for blowing up the base. Legion does not praise you for blowing up the base. Grunt does not praise you for blowing up the base. Zaeed does not praise you for blowing up the base. I'm afraid I can't say for Morinth.

Now, they praise Shepard in general. For, you know, completing the mission and all. Killing collectors. But the base isn't part of their dialogue.

I think Grunt praises you for destroying the base, but it's because explosions are cool.

edit:

And I think Miranda says that the tech in the base was to dangerous and destroying the base was the right move.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh that's not yes men syndrome considering they all give you the stink eye for saving it.

Legion actually made sense though. He was pointing out that how the data was found/created wasn't relevant to whether or not you should use it.

It was more of an issue of you giving it to TIM.

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.

Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.

Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.

Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it

Grunt calls you weak.
Legion disapproves of you keeping the base, I forget his exact dialogue though.
Mordin calls the base terrible.
Garrus doesn't like that you kept the base, I forget his exact dialogue but he's worried.

Otherwise:
Grunt likes the explosions.
Legion is happy that you didn't keep it, saying he wants to see humanity develop on it's own or whatever.
Mordin is happy that you didn't keep the base.
Garrus is glad that you said screw you to Cerberus.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[SgtSteel91]

On topic: I didn't kill Morrigan.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh that's not yes men syndrome considering they all give you the stink eye for saving it.

Legion actually made sense though. He was pointing out that how the data was found/created wasn't relevant to whether or not you should use it.

It was more of an issue of you giving it to TIM.

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.

Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.

Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.

Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.

Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?

Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.

Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.

Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.

Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.

Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it

Grunt calls you weak.
Legion disapproves of you keeping the base, I forget his exact dialogue though.
Mordin calls the base terrible.
Garrus doesn't like that you kept the base, I forget his exact dialogue but he's worried.

Otherwise:
Grunt likes the explosions.
Legion is happy that you didn't keep it, saying he wants to see humanity develop on it's own or whatever.
Mordin is happy that you didn't keep the base.
Garrus is glad that you said screw you to Cerberus.

Legion's disagreement is consistent with his belief that accepting another technologies blinds you to alternate paths (It's not til ME3 that Legion starts betraying his characterization).

Mordin is happy you didn't give it to Cerberus. Pretty sure that's Garrus issue with it as well (I did that quest like yesterday and saved the base for the first time.) the main gist of the dissapproval is giving it to Cerberus. They don't trust TIM (for good reason).

And Grunt doesn't call Shep weak he calls TIM weak (which is why he doesn't like you giving it to him).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:24 .

[Angrywolves]

a bit off topic.
Some players just like killing. They enjoy it.
If they dislike a character, they want to kill that character. That's not how I play my rpgs, but people can play however they like. shrugs.

[David7204]

It would be great if people just admitted they liked killing people because it's a video game and chopping off heads is fun.

I admit that. I think going on murder sprees in GTA 5 is great fun. Killing all the townsfolk is practically a ritual in Fallout.

Instead, we have people seriously attempting to defend murder, genocide, slavery and such on moral grounds. How can I possibly take 'evil' players seriously when it leads to this?

It would be one thing if they really believed it. I would hate it, but I could at least respect it. But this? I look at this and think to myself "Why do I never see this in real life"? Why are there not hoards of people solving their problems through murder and revolution, as they vehemently demand is morally right and obvious online? You go to any forum discussing, say, New Vegas, and a good chunk of the posters will be defending Caesar's Legion. Why do we not have revolutionaries demanding a dictatorship with total submission to the state if so many people apparently believe such things?

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 08:43 .