375 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

Where is that said. In the Masked Empire ?
Gaider was right, it is Patrick Weems fault. Rotfl.

[Nefla]

HiroVoid wrote...

Lebdood wrote...

Usergnome wrote...
Why!?

I don't necessarily share their opinion, but it could be because he vowed eternal pain on Kirkwall if Anders wasn't killed. 

I'm not really ready to judge that until I've seen him actually try it since I'm honestly of the opinion that might simply have been something he said in anger and without thinking about it since Anders just murdered the closest thing he had to a mother at this point.  Plus, any number of friends he had in the chantry.

I agree, I can't count the number of times I've yelled "I'm going to KILL you!" or  "all your stuff is getting thrown out the window!" when I'm angry but I would never do it. Then again I never see the actual conversation since I kill Anders every time, and then Sebastian is more than willing to fight with me to protect the innocent mages that had nothing to do with terrorism and mass murder.

[Lord Raijin]

Usergnome wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I still want to brutally murder Sebastian. So bad. I'm thinking my chances aren't bad necessarily, since he'll probably be running around being all vengeance sweary and whatnot. Mage vs templar might not be the vocal point but I'll eat my boots if there isn't a quest or six that pertains to them in some way. Hopefully Sebastian will be brutally-murderable in one of them.

What?? WHY?

I mean, when I first played DA2 I dislike Sebastian because he was always living his life as the Chantry told him and yadadadadada.

But then, I just stopped to listen and you know what? He is a very friendly guy, righteous, kind, who wants the best for his people and everyone else. He found peace, even after his family threw him out and basically abandoned him, and he turned his life around. He is a good guy.

Why!?

Sebastian is an **** and let me explain why in a short sentence.

He swores his loyaly to the Chantry and to serve Grand Cleric Elthina thus abandoning his country and his people in Starkhavan.  When you first see him hes having a headed argument about taking revenge to his families murderers in Hightown near the Chantry boards with the Grand Cleric. Ethina was trying to persuade him to forget about it, and how seeking revenge is murder, but it went no where because this guys head is thick with illogic. She grabbed his wanted posters, and then he drew his bow right at the Grand Cleric and shot the paper out of her hand and back to the board.
In my eyes he commited treason to the Chantry when he drew his weapon at Elthina. He also attempted to murder her by drawing out his weapon at the woman. I don't care if he didn't attended to kill her nor care if hes a skilled archer... you don't draw your weapon at someone unless if you intent to kill. A bow is not a toy to play around.

He is complete opposite of righteous. He is a typical corrupted politian who takes an advantage of their status for their own personal agenda. He threatens Hawke by saying that he would retake Starkhaven (Funny how he abandoned his own people to serve the Chantry) and seek vengeance on all of Kirkwall if he/she spares Anders life. He doesn't deserve to be King or Prince of Starkhaven when he thinks like this. Anyone who craves power does not deserve it as they will become a tyrant in the process.


You also recieve rivalry points if you push him to retake Starkhaven prior to the Chantry explosion. To me that indicates his lack of interests for his people and for his own Country.

[Mystch3vi0us]

David Gaider wrote...

My impression has always been that ANY character who doesn't put the player first above their own desires is betraying them. Those characters should realize the player is saving the world, or otherwise simply deserving of getting what they want, because the player can rationalize it.

In other words, it's another case of "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Calling it "betrayal" certainly makes it sound objectively worse than "they made me angry", however.

I'm sure I'm taking this out of context. But, wouldn't the fact that Morrigan throws a hissy fit when the player Says, and I'm paraphrasing here, "No I don't want to create a God Baby with you using magic originating from the woman you just had me kill because she was an ancient evil being that possesed her own daughters to extend her own life", then turns into a wolf before the final battle that determins the fate of the known world and ditches you.  Wouldn't that be a horrible betrayal against not just the Warden but all of humanity/dwarves/Elves/Qunari ect.???  I'm just asking because people are super quick to defend Morrigan and her baby kicking ways.

[Fredward]

Sebastian is one of those people who, if you met them in real life, you'd feel like they were an amalgam of traits you disliked. One of those people who are like sandpaper against your soul. Self-righteous, preachy, indecisive, hypocritical and he externalizes his morality. I've written down these traits so often I should probably just put them in my sig. It doesn't help that the game never allows you to express these feelings. Seb just kinda assumes you like him/are on his side right up until the end. Feh.

So anyway while I would never actually kill someone IRL or even entertain the idea for any length of time - this isn't real life. I have no problem making that distinction, I've never really had the problem of separating the two. Real life dead things are awful. And I'm not even talking a person because I've never seen a dead person, (except at medical museums and they don't really have that visceral impact) any dead thing that you knew. All that life is just... gone. Now for a person that would mean you're snuffing out memories, and aspirations, and love and potential and you're rubbing out this person whose existed in this vast tapestry of humanity affecting so many people who now would have to rearrange themselves around an emptiness, a void, where vibrant life once was. Where someone just used to, yah know be. Death is awful.

In real life. In a game? Not so much. I don't feel particularly psychopathic over wanting to kill Sebastian for no other reason than I find him annoying. Cuz killing him will never cause that kind of gaping lack.

And he's really annoying. Really, really annoying.

[Chernaya]

I gotta agree on the Sebastian stuff. That guy's such a hypocrite it hurts. And I suppose I'm a hypocrite too, because I like Anders. But Sebastian claims to be religious and committed to the Chantry/Maker/whatever... yeah, only when it's convenient for him. He left home to be a man of his faith yet he constantly has this burning desire to kill people. It wouldn't surprise me if vengeance hopped into him at some point in the game and we just didn't notice it.

Even so, still wouldn't kill him.

[stormhit]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Sebastian is one of those people who, if you met them in real life, you'd feel like they were an amalgam of traits you disliked. One of those people who are like sandpaper against your soul. Self-righteous, preachy, indecisive, hypocritical and he externalizes his morality. I've written down these traits so often I should probably just put them in my sig. It doesn't help that the game never allows you to express these feelings. Seb just kinda assumes you like him/are on his side right up until the end. Feh.

So anyway while I would never actually kill someone IRL or even entertain the idea for any length of time - this isn't real life. I have no problem making that distinction, I've never really had the problem of separating the two. Real life dead things are awful. And I'm not even talking a person because I've never seen a dead person, (except at medical museums and they don't really have that visceral impact) any dead thing that you knew. All that life is just... gone. Now for a person that would mean you're snuffing out memories, and aspirations, and love and potential and you're rubbing out this person whose existed in this vast tapestry of humanity affecting so many people who now would have to rearrange themselves around an emptiness, a void, where vibrant life once was. Where someone just used to, yah know be. Death is awful.

In real life. In a game? Not so much. I don't feel particularly psychopathic over wanting to kill Sebastian for no other reason than I find him annoying. Cuz killing him will never cause that kind of gaping lack.

And he's really annoying. Really, really annoying.

Traits YOU dislike. It's kind of a stretch to assume that people universally hate those who "externalize their morality," for example. You just hate him doing that because you presumably don't agree with his morality. Actually, all of your complaints are primarily just because you don't agree with him.

[Fredward]

stormhit13 wrote...
Traits YOU dislike. It's kind of a stretch to assume that people universally hate those who "externalize their morality," for example. You just hate him doing that because you presumably don't agree with his morality. Actually, all of your complaints are primarily just because you don't agree with him.

Yeah, and? I never implied that the problems I have with him are somehow universal. It's totally subjective. I just don't like Sebastian.

[Hazegurl]

I can understand why people dislike him. He had to grow on me as well. I used to be upset about him not going after Starkhaven after helping him avenge his family but really, what does him and Starkhaven have to do with me? I just see it as if he can live with someone else ruling the country then good for him. I think Seb also shows that just because you have a set of beliefs doesn't mean you can fight your nature. I think it's natural to want the people who murdered your family dead and it's natural to want the man who blew up someone you loved and cared for dead. We're all a bit hypocritical at times and imo there is a difference between being hypocritical and just a plain hypocrite.

[Demx]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...
Traits YOU dislike. It's kind of a stretch to assume that people universally hate those who "externalize their morality," for example. You just hate him doing that because you presumably don't agree with his morality. Actually, all of your complaints are primarily just because you don't agree with him.

Yeah, and? I never implied that the problems I have with him are somehow universal. It's totally subjective. I just don't like Sebastian.

He just wanted you to use the word I instead of you. Since the reader often takes the word you as a reference to them self.

[Maria Caliban]

I thought the whole 'and I will come here with my army' bit from Sebby out of character, but could be written off as an expression of grief. He saw a woman he cared for blown-up about a minute ago - he is not acting in a rational manner.

[Fredward]

Siradix wrote...
He just wanted you to use the word I instead of you. Since the reader often takes the word you as a reference to them self.

Ah. Oops.


Just to be clear here I don't think Sebastian is badly written. The fact that I dislike him as I would dislike an actual person is testament to exactly the opposite. I mean I could say he was badly written because I dislike him and try to rationalize that or try and give an objective reason for my dislike, I've certainly seen people do it enough times but eh. I doubt the writers write their characters to be universally loved, and if they do and assuming they actually manage to do it they've succeeded in nothing but a lack of substance.

As for Seb swearing vengeance I didn't think that was OOC at all. Totally in line with my view of him anyway. In line with his damned waffling. He loves the sense of righteousness and purpose the Chantry gives him but he also clearly still feels some draw to his former life, killing and power seem to be especially appealing. Now he gets to play the avenging angel, a role which satisfies both parts even more than when he went on a killing spree in the name of his family because now it's for the organization he's sworn his life to. For me the real Sebastian is only gonna show up in DAI (assuming he does) if you didn't kill Anders ofc. Does he still swear vengeance if you do?

[ladyofpayne]

This is offop, guys. Let's return back to Morrigan.

[Lord Raijin]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Sebastian is one of those people who, if you met them in real life, you'd feel like they were an amalgam of traits you disliked. One of those people who are like sandpaper against your soul. Self-righteous, preachy, indecisive, hypocritical and he externalizes his morality. I've written down these traits so often I should probably just put them in my sig. It doesn't help that the game never allows you to express these feelings. Seb just kinda assumes you like him/are on his side right up until the end. Feh.

So anyway while I would never actually kill someone IRL or even entertain the idea for any length of time - this isn't real life. I have no problem making that distinction, I've never really had the problem of separating the two. Real life dead things are awful. And I'm not even talking a person because I've never seen a dead person, (except at medical museums and they don't really have that visceral impact) any dead thing that you knew. All that life is just... gone. Now for a person that would mean you're snuffing out memories, and aspirations, and love and potential and you're rubbing out this person whose existed in this vast tapestry of humanity affecting so many people who now would have to rearrange themselves around an emptiness, a void, where vibrant life once was. Where someone just used to, yah know be. Death is awful.

In real life. In a game? Not so much. I don't feel particularly psychopathic over wanting to kill Sebastian for no other reason than I find him annoying. Cuz killing him will never cause that kind of gaping lack.

And he's really annoying. Really, really annoying.

Even in RL anyone who has the potential of gaining political power and have traits of tyranny should be destoryed. We don't need another Hitler running a mock. Sebastian has the potentials of being a Hitler. His lack of interests in his people and his Country yet he is willing to let them die for his silly cause; over a choice that 1 person made. Sebastian is a war mongering idiot and a hypocrite. He did get some rep points out of me when he protested the idea of R.O.A when the real murderer (Anders) is standing right beside them, however those rep points turned into negative points when he essentinally threaten to delcare war against the people of Kirkwall over 1 persons choice of letting someone live. I wouldn't have such a big problem if he ONLY threaten me, but everyone in Kirkwall? That is psychopathic and crazy.

People like him should not have any political power whatsoever because their not mentally mature to handle it.

[Reznore57]

Sebastian isn't as bad as some people thinks.
He's curious about Dalish religion , and when talking with Merrill , he points out how much the Maker and Dalish gods have in common.
In MOTA , he says he doesn't like the Qun , but tries to understand why elves are attracted to it.He notice that the Chantry may not be too welcoming.
I think in Darktown , he's shocked by poverty , and also wished the Chantry would do something about it.

The only companion he tries (nicely) to convert is Fenris.

The big problem with Sebastien is , only revenge /passion sets him in motion.He's hotheaded on a few topics and indecisive about pretty much everything.

[HiroVoid]

EionaCousland wrote...

I gotta agree on the Sebastian stuff. That guy's such a hypocrite it hurts. And I suppose I'm a hypocrite too, because I like Anders. But Sebastian claims to be religious and committed to the Chantry/Maker/whatever... yeah, only when it's convenient for him. He left home to be a man of his faith yet he constantly has this burning desire to kill people. It wouldn't surprise me if vengeance hopped into him at some point in the game and we just didn't notice it.

Even so, still wouldn't kill him.

I'm actually glad you posted this since when reading Foopy's post, all I could think of is that all of those traits basically describe Anders except maybe replacing indecsivie with emotionally unstable.

I also actually like the thought of vengeance hopping in to Sebastian if Anders dies shortly after DAII, but there's only so much you can do with Sebastian since he's a DLC character.

[HiroVoid]

Reznore57 wrote...

Sebastian isn't as bad as some people thinks.
He's curious about Dalish religion , and when talking with Merrill , he points out how much the Maker and Dalish gods have in common.
In MOTA , he says he doesn't like the Qun , but tries to understand why elves are attracted to it.He notice that the Chantry may not be too welcoming.
I think in Darktown , he's shocked by poverty , and also wished the Chantry would do something about it.

The only companion he tries (nicely) to convert is Fenris.

The big problem with Sebastien is , only revenge /passion sets him in motion.He's hotheaded on a few topics and indecisive about pretty much everything.

Here's a convo with Sebastian about the qunari and elves.

• Anders: I don't understand Tallis.
• Sebastian: She had an emptiness in her life. For her, the Qun filled it.
• Anders: Don't you hate them?
• Sebastian: The Chantry has failed the elves. If we made them more welcome, they would not have to run.
• Sebastian: Maybe the Qunari will force us to better bring word of the Maker's compassion to our own people.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 29 novembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[Lord Raijin]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

My impression has always been that ANY character who doesn't put the player first above their own desires is betraying them. Those characters should realize the player is saving the world, or otherwise simply deserving of getting what they want, because the player can rationalize it.

In other words, it's another case of "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Calling it "betrayal" certainly makes it sound objectively worse than "they made me angry", however.

I'd say swearing to help the Warden and then abandoning them on the eve before the final battle counts as a betrayal.

Morrigan isn't just some misunderstood person who people don't like because she's not kissing up to you; she's  sadistic, manipulative and power hungry, and the world would be better off if the Inquisitor could stick a sword in her gut. We've killed characters for far less.

Morrigan was essentinally forced by her mother to help the Warden. It was her decision, not Morrigans. She didn't swore any oath to aid the Warden therefour was not obligated to help him/her during the Blight. It may seem like betrayal, but it wasn't. Is she sadistic? probably. In order for her to survive she has to be tough and manipulative. With those two traits is what allowed her to avoid capture by the Chantries hunters.... after all she is a powerful and cunning apostate.

As far as her being power hungry... To make a business deal with the Warden by sparing his life resulting of the birth of the OGB doesn't seem like a bad deal. It is your choice as the warden. If you play as a Female warden you are just as bad if not worst than her, since you're essentinally encourging your friend (Alistair) to sleep with someone that they highly dislike to save your own skin from certain faith that awaits them on the battle field.

[Chari]

I'd love to kill Morrigan

[Angrywolves]

hope you like the consequences.

[Hellion Rex]

Angrywolves wrote...

hope you like the consequences.

Oh, I will. 

[Lord Raijin]

To the oblivion to all Morrigan haters.

[HiroVoid]

Lord Raijin wrote...

To the oblivion to all Morrigan haters.

Pfft.  I was there dozens of time in Elder Scrolls while shutting down all those gates.

[Ryzaki]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Legion's disagreement is consistent with his belief that accepting another technologies blinds you to alternate paths (It's not til ME3 that Legion starts betraying his characterization).

Legion's rationale for keeping the base is actually logical, whereas in destroying it, he resorts to purely symbolic BS.

Given that, is it any wonder he "betrayed" his former character? You can only sustain nonsense for so long.

Considering the whole game is based off how accepting another's technology screws you over his symbolic BS is actually correct.

*shrugs*

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ryzaki wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Legion's disagreement is consistent with his belief that accepting another technologies blinds you to alternate paths (It's not til ME3 that Legion starts betraying his characterization).

Legion's rationale for keeping the base is actually logical, whereas in destroying it, he resorts to purely symbolic BS.

Given that, is it any wonder he "betrayed" his former character? You can only sustain nonsense for so long.

Considering the whole game is based off how accepting another's technology screws you over his symbolic BS is actually correct.

*shrugs*

Why do people still think this? Our cycle stops the Reapers, and there's no frickin' way they would have done it without the help of: mass-relays, the Citadel, the Keepers, salvaging Sovereign's remains, the Reaper-IFF, Object Rho, (...)