LOL! It's really not that serious.
Food for thought (about sex scenes)
Débuté par
JediGuy
, oct. 21 2013 06:29
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#27
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:21
Wulfram
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Darth Brotarian wrote...
He's like a dictator, if designed by a 12 year old going through an emo phase. Red and black everywhere, stupid tinted glasses, bowler hat, trench coat, dumb eyesore backdrop, a podium for no reason.
All the signs are there.
You need to have a schtick to be a successful internet ranty type. I wouldn't hold it too much against him.
#28
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:24
Cainhurst Crow
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1:53
Jesus ****ing christ there are so many ****ing assumptions and pompousness that I can barely stop laughing to write this.
Thoughts that come to mind.
1. Who are you, mister sterling, that you know more about the content in the game then everyone else on the internet? Enough that you can just assume they aren't, cause cold stone sterling said so.
2. When did these sex romances scenes ever have a point? He points out that they're done out of cynical obligation now, but that entails there was a point in time they either, A(weren't cynical obligations to be made), and B(The quality they are now is somehow a recent phenomena, and not just more of the same.).
Jesus ****ing christ there are so many ****ing assumptions and pompousness that I can barely stop laughing to write this.
Thoughts that come to mind.
1. Who are you, mister sterling, that you know more about the content in the game then everyone else on the internet? Enough that you can just assume they aren't, cause cold stone sterling said so.
2. When did these sex romances scenes ever have a point? He points out that they're done out of cynical obligation now, but that entails there was a point in time they either, A(weren't cynical obligations to be made), and B(The quality they are now is somehow a recent phenomena, and not just more of the same.).
#29
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:34
JerHopp
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So he says that Bioware include romances/sex for the sake of having them and nothing more..
And the way Bioware does that is by using a rewarding system where you'll need to be nice and give presents to a romanceable character and by doing that you'll eventually get laid...
Well he makes a point but I havent figured out if I agree with this...I mean, I haven't played Dragon Age 2 for a long time, but it wasn't about being nice or giving presents that made a romanceable character fall for you, was it?
And the way Bioware does that is by using a rewarding system where you'll need to be nice and give presents to a romanceable character and by doing that you'll eventually get laid...
Well he makes a point but I havent figured out if I agree with this...I mean, I haven't played Dragon Age 2 for a long time, but it wasn't about being nice or giving presents that made a romanceable character fall for you, was it?
#30
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:42
Wulfram
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JerHopp wrote...
So he says that Bioware include romances/sex for the sake of having them and nothing more..
And the way Bioware does that is by using a rewarding system where you'll need to be nice and give presents to a romanceable character and by doing that you'll eventually get laid...
Well he makes a point but I havent figured out if I agree with this...I mean, I haven't played Dragon Age 2 for a long time, but it wasn't about being nice or giving presents that made a romanceable character fall for you, was it?
Well, you did have to have a certain level of Friendship/Rivalry, and gifts could help with that. And, aside from Isabela, you did need to do their act 2 quest.
So I don't really agree but I think it's at least a defencible statement.
(ME fits less well with his argument here, since there isn't much approval going on, and ME1 and 3 don't have any loyalty missions messing with things.)
#31
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:45
JediGuy
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Allan Schumacher wrote...
By the same token though, I don't think it's fair to say it has nothing to do with the story, because for an RPG the story is more than just the critpath in my opinion. If it has nothing to do with the player's story, then I'd wager that the player wouldn't be picking that content. Why would a player go down a path that they felt was irrelevant to their own story?
As such, at least I think for our games, it's relevant to the story because the player makes it relevant to the story. In a sequence such as Heavy Rain's which is a more structured narrative, the concern about "it happens for no good reason" may be more applicable, though I haven't played the game so I don't know the context of the scene.
This is a very good point. But what about sex scenes and how they relate to character evolution? Whereas Merril having sex with Hawke is somewhat important to her development as a character (since she was a virgin and whatnot), Isabella's scene doesn't do much to forward her arc, same with Morrigan's. More importantly, does every bit of the romance interactions need to further a character's arc?
Modifié par JediGuy, 21 octobre 2013 - 08:59 .
#32
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:49
Zack_Nero
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Man has a point, but he has no idea on how to present it correctly. I also believe that BioWare isn't just throwing it out there just for the simple sake of having it. They try to throw it in meaningful ways. I personally think the way the did Fenris was brilliant. He was hurt, confused, and alone. You were just trying to console him, and it just happened to lead to something else. I loved that idea. I trust BioWare to make tasteful scenes not tasteless.
#33
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Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:52
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Jim usually makes good points, but saying sex is irrelevant in an RPG is sort of a weird statement. Any form of expression in an RPG is relevant as it allows the player to express and define a character they are roleplaying.
I do think the BSN forums are all the evidence you need to see that not everyone who likes romances or sex scenes are roleplaying though, there is a boat load of wish fulfillment for a lot of players.
Jim was hit or miss with this one, while most of the romances really do end with sex, there are obvious exceptions like Morrigan, where sex is not the end of the relationship and simultaneously, very relevant as Morrigan getting pregnant is directly related to the OGB arc.
As I have been saying for years, I am hopeful that Bioware will be able to get beyond the relatively shallow and awkward sex scenes and romances. Bioware is definitely getting better at making this content more believable, but they still have a long way to go imo.
I do think the BSN forums are all the evidence you need to see that not everyone who likes romances or sex scenes are roleplaying though, there is a boat load of wish fulfillment for a lot of players.
Jim was hit or miss with this one, while most of the romances really do end with sex, there are obvious exceptions like Morrigan, where sex is not the end of the relationship and simultaneously, very relevant as Morrigan getting pregnant is directly related to the OGB arc.
As I have been saying for years, I am hopeful that Bioware will be able to get beyond the relatively shallow and awkward sex scenes and romances. Bioware is definitely getting better at making this content more believable, but they still have a long way to go imo.
Modifié par scyphozoa, 21 octobre 2013 - 08:56 .
#34
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:52
Cainhurst Crow
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5:50
And it's gone. Don't know what I was expecting from a person who doesn't seem to have a concept of characters who don't fall into either the "fully in love can't function without a person and their entire lives and character revolves around the player now", or the "I am completely plutonic and there will be no naughty bits shown young man".
What if there is a character like isabela, whose character is very much being a woman who is willing to use her body to get ahead? Whose personality reflects that and who doesn't change who they are just because the player told them nice things and stuck it in them?
It's like he views sex as being some major detractor of romances in games or a games maturity, when not addressing that the romances themselves are usually the root of the problem here. The romances, not the sex, is the shallow part in my honest opinion. Because two people ****ing isn't nearly as altering to a persons personality as jim seems to think it should be.
And it's gone. Don't know what I was expecting from a person who doesn't seem to have a concept of characters who don't fall into either the "fully in love can't function without a person and their entire lives and character revolves around the player now", or the "I am completely plutonic and there will be no naughty bits shown young man".
What if there is a character like isabela, whose character is very much being a woman who is willing to use her body to get ahead? Whose personality reflects that and who doesn't change who they are just because the player told them nice things and stuck it in them?
It's like he views sex as being some major detractor of romances in games or a games maturity, when not addressing that the romances themselves are usually the root of the problem here. The romances, not the sex, is the shallow part in my honest opinion. Because two people ****ing isn't nearly as altering to a persons personality as jim seems to think it should be.
#35
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:55
Allan Schumacher
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Ad hominems against Jim Sterling for the means by which he wishes to present will not be tolerated.
#36
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 08:58
Lord Raijin
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What the hell was the point of posting this video? I couldn't watch one min of it.
#37
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:13
Allan Schumacher
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JediGuy wrote...
This is a very good point. But what about sex scenes and how they relate to character evolution? Whereas Merril having sex with Hawke is somewhat important to her development as a character (since she was a virgin and whatnot), Isabella's scene doesn't do much to forward her arc, same with Morrigan's. More importantly, does every bit of the romance interactions need to further a character's arc?
A couple of things. I disagree that Isabela's scene didn't advance her character. Rather, it set the stage for her conversation immediately afterward. It may (or may not) push it as far as a different romance.
As for the question, it can be taken a bit more liberally. Should a scene exist that doesn't do more to depict the character? This doesn't mean that scenes need to be super moving and deep. If there's a scene of a character just sitting and looking at a butterfly, there are still things that can be conferred about that character from that scene.
When creating a scene, I think it's fair to discuss the motivations behind why a scene is created. If a scene is created that doesn't meaningfully convey anything, should it have been created?
#38
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:18
David7204
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Accepting that argument opens the door to pretty much anyone complaining any element they don't like supposedly accomplishes nothing. I've already plenty of times on the ME forums with people proclaiming any and every squadmate they don't like 'accomplishes nothing' and should hence be scrapped. What does a character 'accomplish'? What does a line a dialogue 'accomplish'? What does a gesture or touch 'accomplish'? And one of the most common ones, what does a character being attractive 'accomplish'?
What this inevitably leads to is a tedious 'pile of sand' argument.
What this inevitably leads to is a tedious 'pile of sand' argument.
Modifié par David7204, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:20 .
#39
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:19
JediGuy
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In other words, is every detail in every scene deliberate? Should they be? Anyway, these are just my musings, since I'm as interested in questions as I am in answers (if not more).Allan Schumacher wrote...
JediGuy wrote...
This is a very good point. But what about sex scenes and how they relate to character evolution? Whereas Merril having sex with Hawke is somewhat important to her development as a character (since she was a virgin and whatnot), Isabella's scene doesn't do much to forward her arc, same with Morrigan's. More importantly, does every bit of the romance interactions need to further a character's arc?
A couple of things. I disagree that Isabela's scene didn't advance her character. Rather, it set the stage for her conversation immediately afterward. It may (or may not) push it as far as a different romance.
As for the question, it can be taken a bit more liberally. Should a scene exist that doesn't do more to depict the character? This doesn't mean that scenes need to be super moving and deep. If there's a scene of a character just sitting and looking at a butterfly, there are still things that can be conferred about that character from that scene.
When creating a scene, I think it's fair to discuss the motivations behind why a scene is created. If a scene is created that doesn't meaningfully convey anything, should it have been created?
#40
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:20
Knight of Dane
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I think if anything, Isabela and Fenris romance scene (I refuse to call them sex scenes, there was no sex in thos scenes) there is a different level of character development than in Anders' and Merrill's, though theirs develop the relationship to Hawke more, in return.
Fenris and Isabelas culminations give more insight into their character(s) and Anders and/or Merrill gets to settle into a partnership with Hawke permanently.
Fenris and Isabelas culminations give more insight into their character(s) and Anders and/or Merrill gets to settle into a partnership with Hawke permanently.
#41
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:24
Allan Schumacher
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Accepting that argument opens the door to pretty much anyone complaining any element they don't like supposedly accomplishes nothing. I've already plenty of times on the ME forums with people proclaiming any and every squadmate they don't like 'accomplishes nothing' and should hence be scrapped. What does a character 'accomplish'? What does a line a dialogue 'accomplish'? What does a gesture or touch 'accomplish'? And one of the most common ones, what does a character being attractive 'accomplish'?
People are going to do this regardless. And if they want to discuss it, all the power to them. I see nothing invalid with looking at things that way.
Especially within the context of what a scene is trying to convey. It's important to note, however, that while someone may not feel that a scene accomplishes anything, doesn't mean that it doesn't. Which is part of the fun of discussing narratives.
Where I get upset and toss my robe and moderator hat is when people get disrespectful about it.
Fenris and Isabelas culminations give more insight into their character(s) and Anders and/or Merrill gets to settle into a partnership with Hawke permanently.
It's been a long time, but I think I'd be inclined to agree with this.
#42
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:26
Br3admax
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Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.
#43
Guest_Corvus I_*
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:27
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I think one way or another all scenes reflect something, even if just suggestive about the player. Sex scenes are not mandatory and players opt to go that path. While a scene may give better insight to a NPCs development it also should be giving the player some insight to themselves, even if in a fantasy environment. However, I doubt that any game maker is ever going to get it ‘just right’ because player have a vast difference to what they judge as ‘just right’. Some will want abstinence and some will want more butter on the bread. In my mind the question is how much butter?
Modifié par Corvus I, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:33 .
#44
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:31
David7204
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The problem is the dishonesty in putting one issue (or one work) under a microscope, claiming it grains of sand instead of a pile, and ignoring every other issue and other works. Which is precisely what this guy is doing. There are dozens of scenes throughout the game or any work of fiction of significant length that a person could claim 'accomplish nothing' with equal validity. (Which is to say, very little to none.)Allan Schumacher wrote...
People are going to do this regardless. And if they want to discuss it, all the power to them. I see nothing invalid with looking at things that way.
Especially within the context of what a scene is trying to convey. It's important to note, however, that while someone may not feel that a scene accomplishes anything, doesn't mean that it doesn't. Which is part of the fun of discussing narratives.
Modifié par David7204, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:32 .
#45
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:34
Ser Pounce A Lot_
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David7204 wrote...
The problem is the dishonesty in putting one issue (or one work) under a microscope, claiming it grains of sand instead of a pile, and ignoring every other issue and other works. Which is precisely what this guy is doing. There are dozens of scenes throughout the game or any work of fiction of significant length that a person could claim 'accomplish nothing' with equal validity. (Which is to say, very little to none.)Allan Schumacher wrote...
People are going to do this regardless. And if they want to discuss it, all the power to them. I see nothing invalid with looking at things that way.
Especially within the context of what a scene is trying to convey. It's important to note, however, that while someone may not feel that a scene accomplishes anything, doesn't mean that it doesn't. Which is part of the fun of discussing narratives.
Yeah it just seems he went with a subject that would grab the most headlines and attention.
Modifié par Ser Pounce A Lot , 21 octobre 2013 - 09:34 .
#46
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:37
David7204
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I doubt it's so much for attention. Probably more that simply a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that video games will reach new bounds of maturity and depth once they abandon sex and violence. Which is silly and irritating.
#47
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:40
Knight of Dane
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We also learn that deep emotional and/or physical events can affect his memory. That's pretty large since you don't learn this unless you romance him.Br3ad wrote...
Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.
Characterization is not just about learning a characters past.
#48
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:40
Sanunes
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Allan Schumacher wrote...
As someone that personally isn't too invested in romances, there are points that I can agree with. In general I think the idea that a romance "concluding" with sex can be problematic. I also don't think that sex is a requirement for an interesting romance (I'm looking at you, Planescape Torment).
I think this describes my biggest problem with romances in BioWare games, for the romance path will almost always end with the sex scene. In Mass Effect 2 I was actually quite happy that after you beat the Collector Base you could invite your partner up to your cabin, I just wish there was a couple more lines of dialogue afterwards to continue establishing the romance between the characters.
#49
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Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:42
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thnxz for link was a interesting watch,from my perspective the guy had some interesting points,some i agreed with some i never,such is life
#50
Posté 21 octobre 2013 - 09:53
Knight of Dane
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I must admit I don't get this. At least not when we're talking about Mass Effect and Dragon Age, which is the bioware series I have played. In neither of the Dragon Age games have sex been the last word of a romance, and Mass Effect was always a trilogy with more to come in both 1 and 2, and the third game has extra romantic content on Earth after the scenes.Sanunes wrote...
Allan Schumacher wrote...
As someone that personally isn't too invested in romances, there are points that I can agree with. In general I think the idea that a romance "concluding" with sex can be problematic. I also don't think that sex is a requirement for an interesting romance (I'm looking at you, Planescape Torment).
I think this describes my biggest problem with romances in BioWare games, for the romance path will almost always end with the sex scene. In Mass Effect 2 I was actually quite happy that after you beat the Collector Base you could invite your partner up to your cabin, I just wish there was a couple more lines of dialogue afterwards to continue establishing the romance between the characters.
