144 réponses à ce sujet

[Topsider]

Not one of Jim's best efforts to be honest. He rambled on and forgot that Dragon Age is a game. Rewards are part of gaming. Gaining levels, finding powerful weapons, advancing the story, etc, but for some reason a romance shouldn't have a reward? Sex is the likely outcome. I think Sterling's main complaint was gifts - which could seem like "buying" sex - but his colorful vocabulary obscured that point.

He also didn't offer any "mature and tasteful" suggestions of his own. I got the impression that he'd prefer no romance at all... just sex.

[Wulfram]

Sanunes wrote...


I think this describes my biggest problem with romances in BioWare games, for the romance path will almost always end with the sex scene. In Mass Effect 2 I was actually quite happy that after you beat the Collector Base you could invite your partner up to your cabin, I just wish there was a couple more lines of dialogue afterwards to continue establishing the romance between the characters.

In the past 2 DA games that's only really been true for Leliana.  Kind of true for Alistair, but I think the romance gets entangled enough with the main storyline for it to not really count.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Br3admax]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.

We also learn that deep emotional and/or physical events can affect his memory. That's pretty large since you don't learn this unless you romance him.

Characterization is not just about learning a characters past.

You also learn that with Isabela, kind of the point. 

[Sanunes]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As someone that personally isn't too invested in romances, there are points that I can agree with. In general I think the idea that a romance "concluding" with sex can be problematic. I also don't think that sex is a requirement for an interesting romance (I'm looking at you, Planescape Torment).

I think this describes my biggest problem with romances in BioWare games, for the romance path will almost always end with the sex scene. In Mass Effect 2 I was actually quite happy that after you beat the Collector Base you could invite your partner up to your cabin, I just wish there was a couple more lines of dialogue afterwards to continue establishing the romance between the characters.

I must admit I don't get this. At least not when we're talking about Mass Effect and Dragon Age, which is the bioware series I have played. In neither of the Dragon Age games have sex been the last word of a romance, and Mass Effect was always a trilogy with more to come in both 1 and 2, and the third game has extra romantic content on Earth after the scenes.

With Mass Effect it depends on who you are romancing (and if you have The Citadel DLC), for the relationships can end right there and not progress any further.  I do agree that if you are romancing Liara, Tali, or Garrus it could continue because they are on the Normandy with you, but characters like Miranda or Jack they end in Mass Effect 2.

I will be honest I can't remember much of Dragon Age 2 for I didn't replay it like I have the Mass Effect franchise, so its a little murky. From what I remember is the one I wound up with felt finished at that point, but I have nothing to compare it do so it could have continued to develop.

[kinderschlager]

 i found that rather amusing

[Knight of Dane]

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.

We also learn that deep emotional and/or physical events can affect his memory. That's pretty large since you don't learn this unless you romance him.

Characterization is not just about learning a characters past.

You also learn that with Isabela, kind of the point. 

You learn that sex makes her remember stuff?

Or that we get a snitch of her past? Then no, she talks about Zevran and her husband to Bethany in banter, you don't have to romance her to know that part of her.

[Br3admax]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.

We also learn that deep emotional and/or physical events can affect his memory. That's pretty large since you don't learn this unless you romance him.

Characterization is not just about learning a characters past.

You also learn that with Isabela, kind of the point. 

You learn that sex makes her remember stuff?

Or that we get a snitch of her past? Then no, she talks about Zevran and her husband to Bethany in banter, you don't have to romance her to know that part of her.

No, that wasn't the point at all. The point is you'll learn the same things from Fenris that you'll learn from Isabela, and Isabela is more forth coming about her past. Second, I said with Hawke, who it really should matter to. What we learn is completely irrelevant, because we are not the ones that are actually romancing anyone. 

[Shasow]

I don't get it.

Wait, no, I get it... and I agree with him.

Modifié par Shasow, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:47 .

[Mathias]

DA:O and DA2's sex scenes weren't done well at all. But it was the meaning behind them that was more important. So even though it's weird watching The Warden and Leliana rubbing against each other in panties, I can at least appreciate the intimacy of the moment. But I believe if you're gonna have a sex scene then you should do it right or don't do it at all. The Mass Effect Trilogy's sex scenes were tasteful and done well for the most part, and I disagree with anyone who says otherwise.

If anything, video's like this will only encourage the animators and writers to do their best to prove people like Jim Sterling wrong. Having a well written and animated sex scene in Mass Effect 1 was as step forward for storytelling in video games. I don't want to see video games take a step back from that, just because some people find sex in games awkward. To be honest I find it awkward when a character of the same sex hits on me, because I'm into women. But I wouldn't ask Bioware to remove that from their games, because it still adds to the game and that there's an audience for it.



There's an audience for sex in video games. I think it's fine to encourage Bioware to do better in this regard, but wanting them to remove it entirely is unreasonable. If you're gonna be a stick in the mud, fine but don't try to ruin the party for everyone else.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:52 .

[Knight of Dane]

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Isabela's more than Fenris', sense we get to learn more about her backstory from it, Hawke does anyway. Fenris' really just storms off talking about how alone he is.

We also learn that deep emotional and/or physical events can affect his memory. That's pretty large since you don't learn this unless you romance him.

Characterization is not just about learning a characters past.

You also learn that with Isabela, kind of the point. 

You learn that sex makes her remember stuff?

Or that we get a snitch of her past? Then no, she talks about Zevran and her husband to Bethany in banter, you don't have to romance her to know that part of her.

No, that wasn't the point at all. The point is you'll learn the same things from Fenris that you'll learn from Isabela, and Isabela is more forth coming about her past. Second, I said with Hawke, who it really should matter to. What we learn is completely irrelevant, because we are not the ones that are actually romancing anyone. 

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

[Sister Goldring]

I really enjoyed that video. Thanks OP.

I'm not too sure what I think about it. Some aspects I absolutely agree with. Much of the sex as culmination of the relationship seems a valid criticism to me. The mechanics of making the characters bond romantically do seem both juvenile and awkward in many instances. I think increasing the complexity of the dialogue selections required to sustain a romance state and some compatibility of the players actions with the character of their object of desire would be a good way to mirror a more organic relationship development path but I don't develop games and don't know how much more complexity or resources they want to put into this area and what the cost to other game elements would be if they chose to do more with the romances.

I'm just not sure that they should throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Just because the devs haven't managed to recreate Romeo and Juliet in interactive form doesn't mean that some players do not find the romances as written enrich their playing experience and increase their investment in the characters. Also the fact that some enjoy the romance aspect for predominantly wish fulfillment purposes doesn't necessarily negate their value either. A lot of what we experience in games is purposely designed to massage the players ego. So, I guess the question I find myself asking is just how 'mature' romance in video games needs to be to fulfill it's purpose? What actually is it's purpose?

Anyway, I enjoyed the video. I find Jim's persona funny and I found his criticisms to be harsh but pretty truthful. Doesn't make me enjoy the romances one whit less though - tragic, shallow creature that I am.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

I think just the idea that those character arcs have the player learn more about those characters as a consequence of pursuing the relationship and the sex that happened within.

You could probably also argue that the sex wasn't required, though I think it'd require changing more to the romance to still convey the relationship and it's an appropriate catalyst.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:09 .

[Angrywolves]

I didn't bother to watch it.
I have my opinion , he can't change it.
I think the romances are, to quote Goren a " good thing".
The issue of whether they should be in DAI has been settled by Bioware.
So it comes down to the quality of the romances , and how you determine quality , and how they're inserted, rolls eyes, into the storyline .

[sky_captain]

Corvus I wrote...

I think one way or another all scenes reflect something, even if just suggestive about the player. Sex scenes are not mandatory and players opt to go that path. While a scene may give better insight to a NPCs development it also should be giving the player some insight to themselves, even if in a fantasy environment. However, I doubt that any game maker is ever going to get it ‘just right’ because player have a vast difference to what they judge as ‘just right’. Some will want abstinence and some will want more butter on the bread. In my mind the question is how much butter?

Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner. Scenes, especially in rpg's, are just as much about the character you are playing as they are about the npc's involved. How much depth you take away from any given scene will largely depend on the depth that you are role playing your character, and how far is too far for a virtual relationship within the context of a fictional narrative will depend on personal taste. 

[Knight of Dane]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

I think just the idea that those character arcs have the player learn more about those characters as a consequence of pursuing the relationship and the sex that happened within.

You could probably also argue that the sex wasn't required, though I think it'd require changing more to the romance to still convey the relationship and it's an appropriate catalyst.

Hm, okay so he just repeated my original guesswork? Got it.

At least I'd think Isabela's would actually reqire "the sex" whereas Fenris seems to have his memories triggered after close physical contact with Hawke.
(This is never adressed if Fenris and Isabela sleep together which makes me think that the deep emotional attachment to Hawke was partly responsible too)

[Br3admax]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

I think just the idea that those character arcs have the player learn more about those characters as a consequence of pursuing the relationship and the sex that happened within.

You could probably also argue that the sex wasn't required, though I think it'd require changing more to the romance to still convey the relationship and it's an appropriate catalyst.

Hm, okay so he just repeated my original guesswork? Got it.

At least I'd think Isabela's would actually reqire "the sex" whereas Fenris seems to have his memories triggered after close physical contact with Hawke.
(This is never adressed if Fenris and Isabela sleep together which makes me think that the deep emotional attachment to Hawke was partly responsible too)

Not exactly.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that they have slept together, it just isn't emotional. 

[Reznore57]

Well , just watched the video and...I think the dude a bit unfair.(and he should chill a bit...)
He's right about the sex being some kind of jackpot but I think he doesn't get the whole "romances" .
Companions are here to provide some context to Thedas world issue , and depending on you being friend with them , ennemies or lover ...you might deal with those issue differently.

About the whole being friendzoned , well it can happen ...you have a set of characters who will be attracted to your character and you have some who won't.(Aveline, Varric...)
And you can't just have sex with every character ...if you want to sleep with every party member , it requires metagaming.

Anyway I'm not saying the sex scene are great , I don't think they are .I think the fade to black and leaving things to the player imagination is better.
I also like the idea of a non sexual romance , it can be really cool.

But really I wonder if he has played any game/romances , the DA team tried to put some consequences depending on how you treat those characters (It doesn't always work perfectly but the intention is there...) so companions are not just creepy blow up dolls.

[Mathias]

Ryzaki wrote...

I agree I really don't see the point in sex scenes. They might as well be FTB in my opinion.

The romances on the other hand are enjoyable and I'd enjoy the game less without them. The sex scenes could vanish and I wouldn't give a damn though.

But I enjoy the sex scenes and I think it would detract from my relationship arc with a character if they were removed from the game. So who should Bioware please? The obvious answer to me is to not get rid of sex scenes, and if they bother you THAT much, simply push x and voila! You skipped over the scene. Or how about removing the sex scenes via the option menu, in the same light as you remove the gratituous blood? That could be an idea.

I can understand if people want to criticize the sex scenes for the purpose of hoping Bioware would improve on them. But there are people who think Bioware should just take a sledgehammer to them and remove them entirely. This is not the way to go about it imo.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:59 .

[Knight of Dane]

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

I think just the idea that those character arcs have the player learn more about those characters as a consequence of pursuing the relationship and the sex that happened within.

You could probably also argue that the sex wasn't required, though I think it'd require changing more to the romance to still convey the relationship and it's an appropriate catalyst.

Hm, okay so he just repeated my original guesswork? Got it.

At least I'd think Isabela's would actually reqire "the sex" whereas Fenris seems to have his memories triggered after close physical contact with Hawke.
(This is never adressed if Fenris and Isabela sleep together which makes me think that the deep emotional attachment to Hawke was partly responsible too)

Not exactly.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that they have slept together, it just isn't emotional. 

Yes.........................

That was my point

[xBelzerger]

Well...yeah, of course what he say is right, but that doesn't apply to Dragon Age at all. There's far more to romance then sex (having sex with Isabella is basically just the start of her romance, in my opinion), and the gift giving system isn't even the game anymore.

[Br3admax]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm not sure i get exactly what same things you mean.

I think just the idea that those character arcs have the player learn more about those characters as a consequence of pursuing the relationship and the sex that happened within.

You could probably also argue that the sex wasn't required, though I think it'd require changing more to the romance to still convey the relationship and it's an appropriate catalyst.

Hm, okay so he just repeated my original guesswork? Got it.

At least I'd think Isabela's would actually reqire "the sex" whereas Fenris seems to have his memories triggered after close physical contact with Hawke.
(This is never adressed if Fenris and Isabela sleep together which makes me think that the deep emotional attachment to Hawke was partly responsible too)

Not exactly.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that they have slept together, it just isn't emotional. 

Yes.........................

That was my point

I don't understand you, man. And I sure as hell don't understand what I'm saying. 

[Frodokiller]

I presonally find DA and MA romances quite different. I think what Jim describes fits into MA and doesnt fit with DA.
Classic

[Frodokiller]

also