144 réponses à ce sujet

[Zatche]

Jim usually makes good points, once you get used to his schtick, but I think he's off on this one. His point about sex just for the sake of sex, I agree with him that would not be mature. I don't, however, think that applies to Bioware. (I do think it applies to the Witcher series.)

Given that he hasn't given Bioware games good reviews in general, he probably hasn't looked into Bioware romances all that hard. So, he hasn't seen how emotional involvement is more the end game for the romance option, not sex.

He is right about the mechanics of the romance, though. I think, and hope, Bioware is moving away from the "spend time with a character, give them gifts, and they sleep with you." Not that I have any ideas to make it better and more nuanced.

[AlexanderCousland]

People will feel how they choose about sex.
It's funny, really, I dont think things always have to be Politically Correct.
I think Game Developers should make the game's the way they want to make them, and If you don't like it specifically because of Sex, Race etc. I think you should start working in the game Industry and change it.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:05 .

[Shasow]

Zatche wrote...

Jim usually makes good points, once you get used to his schtick, but I think he's off on this one. His point about sex just for the sake of sex, I agree with him that would not be mature. I don't, however, think that applies to Bioware. (I do think it applies to the Witcher series.)

Given that he hasn't given Bioware games good reviews in general, he probably hasn't looked into Bioware romances all that hard. So, he hasn't seen how emotional involvement is more the end game for the romance option, not sex.

He is right about the mechanics of the romance, though. I think, and hope, Bioware is moving away from the "spend time with a character, give them gifts, and they sleep with you." Not that I have any ideas to make it better and more nuanced.

I don't know about that. I think the Witcher series does a pretty good job with its sex scenes. Sex with every girl you see, it's Geralt's trademark.

[Dabrikishaw]

I saw the whole video and I find myself agreeing.

[KC_Prototype]

The video will not load for me, but I can tell I will disagree with it because I like sex scenes in games.

[Aldandil]

Shasow wrote...

Zatche wrote...

Jim usually makes good points, once you get used to his schtick, but I think he's off on this one. His point about sex just for the sake of sex, I agree with him that would not be mature. I don't, however, think that applies to Bioware. (I do think it applies to the Witcher series.)

Given that he hasn't given Bioware games good reviews in general, he probably hasn't looked into Bioware romances all that hard. So, he hasn't seen how emotional involvement is more the end game for the romance option, not sex.

He is right about the mechanics of the romance, though. I think, and hope, Bioware is moving away from the "spend time with a character, give them gifts, and they sleep with you." Not that I have any ideas to make it better and more nuanced.

I don't know about that. I think the Witcher series does a pretty good job with its sex scenes. Sex with every girl you see, it's Geralt's trademark.

Sex is often used in the James Bond style in RPGs, I think the Witcher might be one of the most obvious examples of that. There are a few occasions in DA:O that resembles that mentality. It's certainly OK to criticise that, but I wouldn't consider it a flaw that's mainly associated with video games in general or Bioware games in particular. When comparing pointless sex scenes, action movies are definitely worse offenders.

I would say that "the Bioware romances" are fundamentally different in purpose, but I guess they could look similar at a casual glance.

[DooomCookie]

I can see what he's getting at. The whole romance thing does feel terribly token, since it's a tertiary feature of the game. I do think he's slightly off with the sex scenes being the culmination of a romance quest, since in many cases this is not the case. Zevran is the first one that comes to mind for me here, as well as Morrigan and Isabela. However, I can't speak for the players and I wouldn't be surprised if people stopped the romance with these characters immediately after the sex.

[JoltDealer]

I can barely stand this guy, but I made it through the entire video for the sake of this discussion.  As a content creator, I see the sex scenes for what Bioware wants them to be.  The "romance scene" has been done in countless films, both fantasy and sci fi.  It's not sex for the sake of sex.  It's merely imitating the type of films that Bioware draws inspiration from.  

I do agree with Jim Sterling on one point though.  Romance scenes and romances in general should not be treated as a reward for talking to someone enough times or buying them enough gifts.  I know Dragon Age and Mass Effect are not romance simulators, but this approach is wrong and unrealistic.  It seems to support the mentality of many "Nice Guys" out there.  For those unfamiliar, I recommend reading Dr. Nerdlove's article about the topic (which can be found, here: http://www.doctorner...blem-nice-guys/ )

I'm not saying that Bioware needs to put more effort into making more realistic romances because I am of the opinion that it is an unnecessary feature of the game.  It's a nice touch, but not much else.  For a developer who is known for having some of the most dynamic and "real" characters in gaming, I feel that it is a shame for relationships in these games to be so "gamey."  Bioware has friendships down.  Garrus and Alistair remain some of my video game "best friends" because they felt so real.  I just think that ending most of the romance content at sex is the wrong way to go.  Marriage isn't necessary, but no relationship just settles down after culminating in sex.  Romance is more than just talking someone into bed.  It's the little glances, the sweet names, the trust, and most of all, the connection.  If any developer could put that into a video game, it's Bioware.  I just wish they would.

[Zazzerka]

That is one euphoric bastard.

[Deverz]

Romances (if done right) add character depth and another layer to your hero's story. Lots of stories have love story in them. I don't think it's wrong to add a love story to a game if the player has the choice whether to engage in it or not.

As for the sex scenes, yeah people who fall for eachother usually have sex. Depicting them in-game is much less about the titillating scene as it is about two characters in an intimate moment. The love scenes themselves could use more work. But BW has consistently gotten better at doing them.

[Wulfram]

I'm kind of drawing a blank on how you could write a romance that couldn't be characterised as a "reward" for "talking to them enough times?"

I mean, are they supposed to just jump into bed without ever talking to the PC or what?

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 octobre 2013 - 11:31 .

[Star fury]

Deverz wrote...

Romances (if done right) add character depth and another layer to your hero's story. Lots of stories have love story in them. I don't think it's wrong to add a love story to a game if the player has the choice whether to engage in it or not.

As for the sex scenes, yeah people who fall for eachother usually have sex. Depicting them in-game is much less about the titillating scene as it is about two characters in an intimate moment. The love scenes themselves could use more work. But BW has consistently gotten better at doing them.

Good point. I think all fantasy novels have love stories since the LOTR, maybe there are some post-modern exceptions. ASOIAF have love stories and it was a source of inspiration of Bioware for DA series.

[Reaverwind]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

I saw the whole video and I find myself agreeing.

I found myself agreeing as well. 

[Dominus]

I genuinely don't understand the mindset of simply posting a link to a video without at least giving a summary or something for those of us who haven't watched it, or don't want to watch it.

Convenience.

I've seen the video. One thing I will agree with him on, Viewing sex as "The Culmination of spending a lot of time with a character and getting to know them" doesn't help - that doesn't strike me as a relationship, that's slowly talking your way into someone's pants(or Plate Mail Leggings). One thing I've always voiced(and will continue to) is that until more complications(the kind that come in an actual, real-life relationship) arrive, romances will feel more akin to a Happily Ever After Disney-Esque Love-athon. One interview that comes immediately to mind is Chris Avellone's Interview on Romances that appeared in Off-Topic long ago. The quote is a bit harsh, but it drives the point home.

"So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance. Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise.

Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others.

You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after."

The silliness and erratic nature of the video isn't helping his verbal reliability. Saying DOA Volleyball's blatant use of wish fulfillment is somehow better than BioWare's take on sex scenes comes off as nonsense.

Let's cut out sex for a second. Is adding Side-Questy content that changes nothing to the Lore/Main Plot itself considered petty? Some of the skirmish-y quests in Mass Effect 3 had virtually no plot existent involved, and were essentially multiplayer runs for Single Player. They were entertaining, but they didn't really add anything. I wouldn't qualify romances necessarily as art, and lean more towards entertainment. Is it tasteful? Well, I'm hoping it gets better from here. My first piece of advice to devs would be adding some taste of realism to a romantic relationship... not just a means to a "happy ending".

Modifié par DominusVita, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:51 .

[wolfsite]

To an extent I have to disagree with some of this since it feels like he is attacking Bioware more than the concept of sex in games, frankly he should have included games like The Witcher as well since there are quite a few times in those games were sex is a reward for merely completing a fetch quest or side mission, with Bioware games you do get the ability to actually learn about the characters (Dragon Age has one or two that actually have motives for wanting to have sex) & in Mass Effect many characters you don't actually see a sex scene but you relly get a lot of character development before and afterhand.

He even states that Sex scenes are pretty much standard in Bioware games yet KOTOR had no such things, you can get close to characters but nothing happens in the actual game, and I'm sure there are other from games I have not played

[Bourne Endeavor]

I tend to agree with the principle portion of his argument. Relationships are somewhat poorly defined in video games. While BioWare had undeniably taken steps to remedying this factor, I would fancy a greater depth of development and nuance. Relationships are not easy by any stretch and it would be interesting if those dimensions were explored, in particular after sex. This is an excellent source of drama and tension for the story that has yet to be included, and if not abused as stereotype, could offer much substance to the relationship.

For instance, Miranda from ME2. I found her struggles with her father and difficulties with vulnerability of greater worth in the relationship arc and would have loved to see that taken further - make the player have to actually work for the relationship to gain any ground instead of a few conversations and bam. The dialogue was good, especially the allowance of both paragon and renegade to pursue the relationship. Still, I cannot help but say I was left wanting more and encourage BioWare to do just that.

This is my belief on what Jim meant. His comparison to Dead or Alive is rather shallow though, as it neglects any emotional investment. Hitomi is little more than breasts, whereas BioWare writes developed characters regardless of how you feel about the romances.

Suffice it to say. He has a point, but one that is a little fragile.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:57 .

[Lluthren]

I really don't care that much as long as it's not manditory. In DAO, I didn't go in the tent with Zevran for the almost the entire game, but I was still romancing him. 
Personally I think a sex scene is not really needed for a romance, but I don't mind if it is there. I liked that in Mass effect 2 you didn't have a sex scene with Garrus, it was just a touching moment.
I don't agree with this guy saying that a romance scene serves no purpose. Such a scene can show a lot about a character, like their vulnerelbility. It can add a certain depth if done well and adds to the story of your pc. 

Allan Schumacher wrote...

[...] In a sequence such as Heavy Rain's which is a more structured narrative, the concern about "it happens for no good reason" may be more applicable, though I haven't played the game so I don't know the context of the scene.
[...]

I saw a playthrough. I don't know if you or anyone else here wants to play heavy rain, so I'll try to be vague.

I think it was after a task after wich the main character, the man in the video, has to hurry to do a very important mission of sorts. He tells the woman that this mission is all that matters at the moment and then you get an option to kiss the woman who helps him, then that stuff in the video happens.

When I saw that scene I was rather confused as it sort of came out of nowhere and seemed a bit out of place.

[Xilizhra]

I've seen the video. One thing I will agree with him on, Viewing sex as "The Culmination of spending a lot of time with a character and getting to know them" doesn't help - that doesn't strike me as a relationship, that's slowly talking your way into someone's pants(or Plate Mail Leggings). One thing I've always voiced(and will continue to) is that until more complications(the kind that come in an actual, real-life relationship) arrive, romances will feel more akin to a Happily Ever After Disney-Esque Love-athon. One interview that comes immediately to mind is Chris Avellone's Interview on Romances that appeared in Off-Topic long ago. The quote is a bit harsh, but it drives the point home.

I personally don't quite agree, in that I dislike romantic drama and prefer to have romance as a sort of safe haven in terms of story; while I can sort of see your point, don't cut out a romance ending well just because of aversion to Disney or whatever. They still can do so and still be good stories.

Also, Avellone's attitude is horrible and I want no part of him.

[Fardreamer]

Personally, I have a good enough imagination to be fine without sex scenes in the game. The fade to black and implied off-screen action gets the point across for story purposes just fine.

That said, I also feel like fantasy games have things like sex, sexy armor, and the ability to chase and seduce others freely because they are things gamers like (it goes back to DnD dice rolls based on your charisma score :-P). They are things you DON'T do in real life. This doesn't mean gamers are unfulfilled sexually. I have a great relationship with a beautiful girlfriend, and I couldn't be happier. But playing a game is like reading a book. Game of Thrones is full of sex scenes. No one makes remarks about how they are for unfulfilled readers.

Modifié par Fardreamer, 22 octobre 2013 - 02:28 .

[chuckles471]

wolfsite wrote...

To an extent I have to disagree with some of this since it feels like he is attacking Bioware more than the concept of sex in games, frankly he should have included games like The Witcher as well since there are quite a few times in those games were sex is a reward for merely completing a fetch quest or side mission, with Bioware games you do get the ability to actually learn about the characters (Dragon Age has one or two that actually have motives for wanting to have sex) & in Mass Effect many characters you don't actually see a sex scene but you relly get a lot of character development before and afterhand.

He even states that Sex scenes are pretty much standard in Bioware games yet KOTOR had no such things, you can get close to characters but nothing happens in the actual game, and I'm sure there are other from games I have not played

He didn't included the witcher because they don't try to hide the fact that the "sex scene" is the reward.  They never came out with the tasteful and matrue statement.  It would be like attacking porn movies for having hardcore sex. 

Geralt is a man ****, it's part of the character.  Most of the time his there is absoulty no loving feeling involved in his many tunnel cleaning escapades.  Hell the first one had sex cards.

I think Jim is attacking that Bioware is trying to say they are "better" at romances but are using the same system as the witcher for sex scenes.  Do the quest, get the reward.

[wickedwizzard01]

Sure the sex scenes in DA are not perfect and somewhat awkward to watch. And as such there is room for improvement yes, but definitely think they advance the character arc
And should stay
In an earlier post someone suggested to have an option in the menu like the blood on/ off switch
But I wonder why they should do something like that, as the Romance plot lines in DA and ME are optional anyway
You only end up with the sex scenes if you want to , there is no way to get the sex scenes by accident and therein always the option to say NO just before the scene

[wickedwizzard01]

Double post Sorry:blink:

Modifié par wickedwizzard01, 22 octobre 2013 - 03:30 .

[Wulfram]

chuckles471 wrote...


I think Jim is attacking that Bioware is trying to say they are "better" at romances but are using the same system as the witcher for sex scenes.  Do the quest, get the reward.

But it's only really true if you define quest in a uselessly broad way, and ignore all the content that happens after the supposed "reward".

edit: I don't think Bioware are especially claiming greatness in the field of romance.  The quote he's taking as cue is basically just some guy trying to say "We aren't going to show nipples" in a way that doesn't sound too embarassing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Navasha]

Its not really about the "sex" for me actually, but the type of setting. I generally am a fan of darker grittier settings. I want to see towns with brothels, taverns filled with "wenches", and prostitutes lining the back alleys of run down neighborhoods. Sex is a part of that world.

Personally, a fade to black is just fine. I actually would prefer that over 'clothed' sterile scenes. However, I want the settings themselves to actually reflect that sex is something that actually happens in the world, and not the practically Disney-esqe RPGs some companies produce.

[DatOneFanboy]

What i have a problem with is the Fade to the Black, Sex scenes are optional for me, just a kiss before the Finale is enough, But if your going to put a sex scene dont put a goddamn Fast Forward time Fade in black Rave disco sht, That breaks the immersion