810 réponses à ce sujet

[Chaos Hammer]

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other.

Templars are not only meant to watch the mages, they are their protectors aswell. The Templars protect mages not only from the threat of religious fanatics, but Templars also serve to protect the mages should abominations or blood mages come knocking. The Harrowing is a trial by fire, but so is combat in general now isn't it?

Andraste was not against mages, just Tevinter and blood magic. Mages are unfortunately highly dangerous individuals. Their powers are in themselves dangerous. They are not inherently evil, simply dangerous. And, the people who do not posses this gift are suspicious, probably reasonably so. To say "The mages should be free!" is like saying that guns should be everywhere. It's an idiotic notion, but the virtue of freedom is a dear one to the Western world (perhaps others as well, simply speaking from experience)

Safety and Freedom are brothers, inseparable and constantly vying for power. Both are necessary for a health, viable, non-oppressive society.

The Circle was the best solution, and while they have been dissolved, they were the only workable solution and best protected the freedom and the lives of the majority and taught the mages how to control the immense power at their disposal'

I suppose the point is.........

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

[JediGuy]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

Safety and Freedom are brothers, inseparable and constantly vying for power.

I think you just answered your question.

[David7204]

The struggle for balance brings imbalance.

Because sometimes, things are true.

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

The struggle for balance brings imbalance.

Because sometimes, things are true.

I would like to here them then, truthfully. What is true in this situation, David? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I applaud the effort but BSN loves itself some extremism. I fear this thread is doomed to be torn apart by more mage vs templar arrguing.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:32 .

[Phate Phoenix]

This is something I've thought about, and, personally, I think a registration-type system with phylacteries would work really well. The mages still have freedom, the Templars (and Chantry) can still keep vigil, and everyone is equally unhappy.

[Wulfram]

Your middle ground seems to be the status quo that's led to oppression and injustice.

A real middle ground could be desirable, and would probably involve retaining the circles or a similar institution to train mages and constrain those that are dangerous. But it would require there be sufficient guarantees for Mages that they could feel safe from arbitrary repression, while giving Templar's enough to believe that these privileges aren't liable to be abused. Which is likely to be especially difficult to achieve when the two sides have come to open war and hatred - there'd need to be trust, and there's none of that.

[Former_Fiend]

I believe the path to compromise begins with beating both parties over the head until they agree with you.

[wcholcombe]

Much of the trouble in this regard seems to be relatively recent. It is the product of extremism on both sides. Primarily, Templars tightening down significantly on rights and freedoms the mages had been used to having, while at the same time Mages refusing to be satisfied with the freedoms they previously enjoyed. Partially I think the whole fight is largely unrealistic. Mages, who largely grow up in Andraste nations, would be aware of the dangers they present. Rhys was raised in a Chantry and than in the Tower, while there would be no need for him to hate himself for being a mage, he should also be fully aware of the dangers that would be presented by just letting mages run around Thedas willy nilly. Both to themselves and others.

I say all that to say this, I think the primary reason for all the issues is the conflict between hard line Templars digging their heels in while removing from power those who are sympathetic or understanding to mages and mages taking a no compromise attitude-both examples seen in Asunder-- with no recourse for both groups to take when at an impasse. The 1st enchanter of each tower is still subservient to the will of the Knight Commander, while if the Knight Commander is understanding to the Mages, he never gives them enough and risks being replaced by his order. There needs to be a 3rd party(Inquisitor?) in each tower who can sit down with the KC and the 1st enchanter and come to a concensus on issues facing the tower. Majority vote that is accepted by both sides.

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

[Chaos Hammer]

wcholcombe wrote...

Much of the trouble in this regard seems to be relatively recent. It is the product of extremism on both sides. Primarily, Templars tightening down significantly on rights and freedoms the mages had been used to having, while at the same time Mages refusing to be satisfied with the freedoms they previously enjoyed. Partially I think the whole fight is largely unrealistic. Mages, who largely grow up in Andraste nations, would be aware of the dangers they present. Rhys was raised in a Chantry and than in the Tower, while there would be no need for him to hate himself for being a mage, he should also be fully aware of the dangers that would be presented by just letting mages run around Thedas willy nilly. Both to themselves and others.

I say all that to say this, I think the primary reason for all the issues is the conflict between hard line Templars digging their heels in while removing from power those who are sympathetic or understanding to mages and mages taking a no compromise attitude-both examples seen in Asunder-- with no recourse for both groups to take when at an impasse. The 1st enchanter of each tower is still subservient to the will of the Knight Commander, while if the Knight Commander is understanding to the Mages, he never gives them enough and risks being replaced by his order. There needs to be a 3rd party(Inquisitor?) in each tower who can sit down with the KC and the 1st enchanter and come to a concensus on issues facing the tower. Majority vote that is accepted by both sides.

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm glad someone else is on middle ground here.

The current system isn't perfect, but it's the best solution. Mage freedom will end up in mages exploiting their powers and oppressing, enslaving and killing non-mages. Tevinter is the perfect example for what happens when mages seize power. Slaughter or mass tranquilization of all mages is obviously wrong, being a mage isn't a choice after all.

Saving the circle in DA:O was the perfect solution. The circle lives and enjoys certain freedoms, while the Templars watch and protect them or fight alongside them.

But then you have egocentric, powerhungry, mad a**holes like Anders and Meredith to disturb the balance.

[Phate Phoenix]

wcholcombe wrote...

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

Not every system is perfect, of course.  I'd suggest there being more Templars spread out further instead of just having them at Chantries. Over time, I think mages would seek out locations where more Templars were located, but only when Templars stopped being their jailor and started being their protector.

[Former_Fiend]

Speaking solely as a devil's advocate, as I don't actually care one way or another, I highly doubt mages will ever look at templars as protectors. I feel they'll always see them as symbols of oppression.

There was an X-men comic book some years ago where a group of sentinels was assigned to protect the Xavier Institute. Wolverine, speaking to Luke Cage, compared sentinels protecting mutants to burning crosses protecting black people. I expect mages, the extremist, at least, would view templars in the same way.

[wcholcombe]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Much of the trouble in this regard seems to be relatively recent. It is the product of extremism on both sides. Primarily, Templars tightening down significantly on rights and freedoms the mages had been used to having, while at the same time Mages refusing to be satisfied with the freedoms they previously enjoyed. Partially I think the whole fight is largely unrealistic. Mages, who largely grow up in Andraste nations, would be aware of the dangers they present. Rhys was raised in a Chantry and than in the Tower, while there would be no need for him to hate himself for being a mage, he should also be fully aware of the dangers that would be presented by just letting mages run around Thedas willy nilly. Both to themselves and others.

I say all that to say this, I think the primary reason for all the issues is the conflict between hard line Templars digging their heels in while removing from power those who are sympathetic or understanding to mages and mages taking a no compromise attitude-both examples seen in Asunder-- with no recourse for both groups to take when at an impasse. The 1st enchanter of each tower is still subservient to the will of the Knight Commander, while if the Knight Commander is understanding to the Mages, he never gives them enough and risks being replaced by his order. There needs to be a 3rd party(Inquisitor?) in each tower who can sit down with the KC and the 1st enchanter and come to a concensus on issues facing the tower. Majority vote that is accepted by both sides.

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

I don't follow that logic.  Rhys at no point recognizes the danger that is presented by mages having their freedom even though he was raised in an environment that would have fully informed him of the dangers magic presented.

The parrallel to your Gun Control example would be if President Obama's daughters came out in favor of making Automatic weapons available to the general public without background checks.

I don't have a problem with Rhys and others straining against their bonds as it were, but the fact that none of them ever mention the inherent danger that they as mages poss is odd to me.

That is neither here nor there though.  I still think the 3rd party tribunal system would solve a lot of the issues in the towers.

[Medhia Nox]

I hate moderation! Moderation killed a family of kittens and my mother! I just want to obliterate all moderate people... but, I'm non-violent and want happy endings for everybody.

ROAR extremism against moderation!

----

Sorry, just trying to get my extremist groove going.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

Yes because in the previous time of the rise of the Inquisition, the abominations and mages running around on their own during the blight was working out so well for everyone.

You do realize, that prior to that the mages were using elves and humans as living batteries for blood magic just because they were merely human or elf and couldn't do anything about it.  Yeah, things were so much better when Magisters were sacrificing 1000 elves just for their jollies.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

When I was in my first year of secondary college, in a History class IIRC, we were studying wars of the past. I asked my teacher something along the lines of "Why are people still fighting today after all that? Doesn't everyone want peace?"

He replied, "No."

[Jorji Costava]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

When I was in my first year of secondary college, in a History class IIRC, we were studying wars of the past. I asked my teacher something along the lines of "Why are people still fighting today after all that? Doesn't everyone want peace?"

He replied, "No."

Or maybe it's that people want peace, but they want each other's stuff more.

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

Yes because in the previous time of the rise of the Inquisition, the abominations and mages running around on their own during the blight was working out so well for everyone.

You do realize, that prior to that the mages were using elves and humans as living batteries for blood magic just because they were merely human or elf and couldn't do anything about it.  Yeah, things were so much better when Magisters were sacrificing 1000 elves just for their jollies.

"The mages" were doing that?  No, specific mages from the Tevinter Imperium were doing that.  It's disingenuous to claim that Magisters = all mages everywhere, in all times and places.

[cjones91]

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

Yes because in the previous time of the rise of the Inquisition, the abominations and mages running around on their own during the blight was working out so well for everyone.

You do realize, that prior to that the mages were using elves and humans as living batteries for blood magic just because they were merely human or elf and couldn't do anything about it.  Yeah, things were so much better when Magisters were sacrificing 1000 elves just for their jollies.

"The mages" were doing that?  No, specific mages from the Tevinter Imperium were doing that.  It's disingenuous to claim that Magisters = all mages everywhere, in all times and places.

Unfortunately some people around here seem to think all mages think the same.

[wcholcombe]

Hey just painting with the same broad brush as everyone else.

And no the mages running around as abominations weren't magisters. The Inquisition came into being in response to the wanton destruction of mages.

[wcholcombe]

cjones91 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

Yes because in the previous time of the rise of the Inquisition, the abominations and mages running around on their own during the blight was working out so well for everyone.

You do realize, that prior to that the mages were using elves and humans as living batteries for blood magic just because they were merely human or elf and couldn't do anything about it.  Yeah, things were so much better when Magisters were sacrificing 1000 elves just for their jollies.

"The mages" were doing that?  No, specific mages from the Tevinter Imperium were doing that.  It's disingenuous to claim that Magisters = all mages everywhere, in all times and places.

Unfortunately some people around here seem to think all mages think the same.

Yes and you think all templars think the same.  Welcome to the club.

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

Hey just painting with the same broad brush as everyone else.

And no the mages running around as abominations weren't magisters. The Inquisition came into being in response to the wanton destruction of mages.

Actually the Inquisition was about putting an end to the chaos in general, and where it refers to mages, it specifies blood magic and abominations--it never claims that mages everywhere were using magic for no other purpose than to cause harm.  

They went after cultists and heretics as well, and we're told now that they were condemned by certain groups specifically because they were impartial in their application of justice, protecting mages just as often as they protected people from mages.  You are grossly mistaken if you think that the Inquisition was all about putting down mages and nothing else.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:55 .

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Hey just painting with the same broad brush as everyone else.

Condemning an institution that you think engages in monstrous and unethical behavior is different than acting like an entire race of people are the same.

wcholcombe wrote...

And no the mages running around as abominations weren't magisters. The Inquisition came into being in response to the wanton destruction of mages.

There are free mages in societies that aren't controlled by templars, and those societies didn't fall to abominations. I don't but into the idea that an anti-mage religious organization is necessary for the safety of Thedas.