810 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Starting to sound mighty political up in here.

[CroGamer002]

Qistina wrote...

They are the source of the problem...there is no such problem for the Dalish and Dwarves.

Dwarven kingdom was the largest before Tevinter...i never hear Dwarves have such problem. Arlathan also the most sophisticated kingdom, not have such problem. All Elves was Magisters, they build their kingdom by Magic. No such problem

All these belief and sentiment about Mages comes from the Chantry

Dwarves don't have mages and before Darkspawn they had many kingdoms of their own to trade with. But after Blights, they're are more depedant on outside world trade.

Also what we have with Arlathan are only legends, no legitimate history since Tevinter destroyed nearly all traces of it.
And legends are always biased and exagirated, so there's no reason not to assume even Arlathan had same problems.

That system is already failed, all that happen show that system is unreliable, and it is bias. It is not the best interest for all, it only favor Andrasterians

The system worked for very long time and kept peace until now.

System needs to get either updated with the times or create new similiar system at very least.

What give them right to have war in other peoples land? It is their problem, not everyone problem. The problem started with their system and their religion.

Elves technically reside on Adrestian kingdom's lands and they are only ones that can't avoid this conflict even though it's not about them. Dwarves are underground, while Qunari and Chasins isolated from those events inside Andrestian kingdoms.

There is no middle ground here, the Circle must be destroyed and Andrasterian must stop being arrogant and busy body. The war happen because of that, and that must be stopped

So just free the mages?
To have them unchecked and allow to have power?
Just like in Tevinter Imperium?

If that happens, those who do not have magic will either be slaves or low class citizens.
Just like it happen in ancient pre-Andrestian Tevinter Imperium and is happening in current one.
Even the most good mages in it have to own slaves and use blood magic to have any influence and power to do some good. Otherwise, they'll be killed by another mage that desires more power and influence.

It's naive and foolish to give them complete freedom.

[CroGamer002]

Br3ad wrote...

Starting to sound mighty political up in here.

Yeah.
I tried my best to sound least possible political to real life, in my response.

Comparison to those two things was just silly, so I had to reply.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

"Circle Mages and Templars" is as according to Andrasterian, it cannot be applied to ALL races and religion. That's bias

That is my point.

It's only one sided, bias, all these talk about Circle and Templar reformation, change and all are just bias. Not everyone in Thedas are Andrasterians

That is why there is no middle ground here...middle what?

You have a strange idea what a "middle ground is".Also when middle gound is necessary.

Why the FRAK would Andrastian nations be conncerned with non-adrastian nations? Their borders are their own.

Also, the Circles weren't made because andrastians. They were made because mages were dangerous. The circles are in the best interest of all. Period.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I'm Mister Mid-Del-Grand and I say Circle is the middle ground here:

Mages living freely ~ Circle ~ All mages killed on sight
Mages living freely ~ Circle ~ All mages being tranquilized
Mages living freely ~ Circle ~ All mages imprisoned and some tortured
Mages living freely in an isolated Island ~ Circle ~ All mages imprisoned and some tortured

I don't want to mention what horrors will happen if "Mages living freely".

[Boycott Bioware]

Mesina2 wrote...
Mages in other hand, are dangerous simply due to their magic that they're borned with. They can destroy anything in their sight with little effort and resistance and become an abomination, which is even way worse.

They can, but do they simply want to destroy everything just because they are Mages?

Most countries have nuclear power, do they just simply push a button and launch nuclear warhead missiles? Most countries have nuclear reactor, do all of them blown up because becoming unstable? Some countries have nuclear submarine with nuclear warhead missiles, do all the captain goes nut and blow up some countries just because they are suddenly become crazy?

No...Mages are Human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarf. They are all sentient beings, the beings that have conscience, have mind and have brain, they are not animals, even animals know when to use their fangs and claws. A cat not likely just want to attack your face.

And so a sentient being have mind, have consciousness, have moral standing, have empathy...the Circle disregard these Mages capability as "human" or "sentient being". Propagating that they are not capable to control themselves, not able to using their mind and consciousness, just because they are born with a power. That is dehumanization (or deelfzation or dequnarization whatever)...

The main character of previous games prove the lies of the Chantry...Mage Warden and Mage Hawke don't just simply want to destroy everything, becoming abomination, consort to demon...it is the player choice, it is the player who choose to make deal with demons, even so it turn out to be well, nothing so devastation coming out of it..because it totally depend on the person

Every races have their own Mages, they have their own view about magic and Mages, the Circle disrespect all religion and cultures

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:35 .

[Boycott Bioware]

So just free the mages?
To have them unchecked and allow to have power?

yes

Just like in Tevinter Imperium?

Now that is the core issue...Tevinter Imperium....Andrasterians use "Tevinter Imperium" in their propaganda, as if that country is all bad, evil, the axis of evil...

If you think carefully, if it really like what being propagated, no such country exist, it cannot exist.

How much slaves being sacrifice for blood magic vs how many population existed in Thedas...?

Think carefully, the propaganda from Chantry and Fenris said Tevinter Mages love to sacrifice peoples for Blood magic and for power...how many population that live in Tevinter? If everyday Tevnter is like that, then there is no one is alive anymore

It is like "pharaohs use millions of slaves to build pyramids", how many peoples live in ancient time and how big the Egyptian Empire? How powerful they are to collect every races to become their slaves to build pyramids? How rich they are to feed those slaves everyday? They are all human who need to eat, drink, sleep, procreate.... It is a non-sense, those millions of slaves would just rebel and kill pharaohs rather than working for them.

The same with Tevinter Imperium, no one want to live in Tevinter Imperium if the propaganda is true...as no one want to live in Middle East if USA propaganda is true

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:46 .

[Reaverwind]

Qistina wrote...

*snip*

1) You're over-simplifying the real-world situation

2) You're treading onto dangerous ground by bringing in the real-world politics

Please drop it.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:49 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Mages in other hand, are dangerous simply due to their magic that they're borned with. They can destroy anything in their sight with little effort and resistance and become an abomination, which is even way worse.

They can, but do they simply want to destroy everything just because they are Mages?

Most countries have nuclear power, do they just simply push a button and launch nuclear warhead missiles? Most countries have nuclear reactor, do all of them blown up because becoming unstable? Some countries have nuclear submarine with nuclear warhead missiles, do all the captain goes nut and blow up some countries just because they are suddenly become crazy?

No...Mages are Human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarf. They are all sentient beings, the beings that have conscience, have mind and have brain, they are not animals, even animals know when to use their fangs and claws. A cat not likely just want to attack your face.

And so a sentient being have mind, have consciousness, have moral standing, have empathy...the Circle disregard these Mages capability as "human" or "sentient being". Propagating that they are not capable to control themselves, not able to using their mind and consciousness, just because they are born with a power. That is dehumanization (or deelfzation or dequnarization whatever)...

The main character of previous games prove the lies of the Chantry...Mage Warden and Mage Hawke don't just simply want to destroy everything, becoming abomination, consort to demon...it is the player choice, it is the player who choose to make deal with demons, even so it turn out to be well, nothing so devastation coming out of it..because it totally depend on the person

Every races have their own Mages, they have their own view about magic and Mages, the Circle disrespect all religion and cultures

What mages are unstable bombs and that if they don't want power and as we proven they want they aren't animals and humans they are vessel for demons and bring only destruction and suffering even without abomnation now count how many times mages bring destruction and suffering on others and how many times mages helped and now take scale things things yep.Besides only strognest have right to live because might makes right and mages are too weak to survive or protect themselves.

Besides mage warden and hawke are pc so hardly we can compare them and put them into normal human elf or dwarf category.   

[Boycott Bioware]

Because it is all politic

I am using ALLEGORY

[Trikormadenadon]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Much of the trouble in this regard seems to be relatively recent. It is the product of extremism on both sides. Primarily, Templars tightening down significantly on rights and freedoms the mages had been used to having, while at the same time Mages refusing to be satisfied with the freedoms they previously enjoyed. Partially I think the whole fight is largely unrealistic. Mages, who largely grow up in Andraste nations, would be aware of the dangers they present. Rhys was raised in a Chantry and than in the Tower, while there would be no need for him to hate himself for being a mage, he should also be fully aware of the dangers that would be presented by just letting mages run around Thedas willy nilly. Both to themselves and others.

I say all that to say this, I think the primary reason for all the issues is the conflict between hard line Templars digging their heels in while removing from power those who are sympathetic or understanding to mages and mages taking a no compromise attitude-both examples seen in Asunder-- with no recourse for both groups to take when at an impasse. The 1st enchanter of each tower is still subservient to the will of the Knight Commander, while if the Knight Commander is understanding to the Mages, he never gives them enough and risks being replaced by his order. There needs to be a 3rd party(Inquisitor?) in each tower who can sit down with the KC and the 1st enchanter and come to a concensus on issues facing the tower. Majority vote that is accepted by both sides.

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

Except that guns aren't people. Factor that into the equation and it is no longer comparable.

[Br3admax]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Because it is all politic

I am using ALLEGORY

But not SUBTLETY.

Or SENSE and LOGIC. Plus TRUTH would be nice as well. 

[Boycott Bioware]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Besides mage warden and hawke are pc so hardly we can compare them and put them into normal human elf or dwarf category.

Why not?

The Warden Mage is just an apprentice who newly Harrowed and recognized as full Mage, then he/she is free from the Circle and all it's rule, have the authority to do what he/she want as a Grey Warden, and as one of the two Grey Warden in Ferelden. He/She maybe a Blood Mage. He/She also have apostate companion, learning ancient magic from spirit in some ruin...

Mage Hawke is just a human, trying to survive in Ferelden an restore his/her family name. He/She may make deal with demons, may trick demons, maybe a Blood Mage, and maybe doing all notorious things available in the game...but Kirkwal destruction is not by his/her magic

Both characters in the game is lead by you, the player, it is your decision based on your conscience and moral ground...you who decide to murder knife someone...YOU, a human

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 05:03 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Besides mage warden and hawke are pc so hardly we can compare them and put them into normal human elf or dwarf category.

Why not?

The Warden Mage is just an apprentice who newly Harrowed and recognized as full Mage, then he/she is free from the Circle and all it's rule, have the authority to do what he/she want as a Grey Warden, and as one of the two Grey Warden in Ferelden. He/She maybe a Blood Mage. He/She also have apostate companion, learning ancient magic from spirit in some ruin...

Mage Hawke is just a human, trying to survive in Ferelden an restore his/her family name. He/She may make deal with demons, may trick demons, maybe a Blood Mage, and maybe doing all notorious things available in the game...but Kirkwal destruction is not by his magic

Both characters in the game is lead by you, the player, it is your decision based on your conscience and moral ground...you who decide to murder knife someone...YOU, a human

But you don't experience what they experienced and well they have also absolute protection on some things.For example 99 % peoples wouldn't handle so much as warden stoping blight alone with such mess around and do that without whining or with minimum (if player decides). As well mage warden can't be possessed that same for hawke. When it becomes hard most peoples just forget about morals and conscience disappears more and more we can drive our pc without being put on their situations and pc armor protects us from danger in some way.

[Reaverwind]

Qistina wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Besides mage warden and hawke are pc so hardly we can compare them and put them into normal human elf or dwarf category.

Why not?

Why not? Because the PC is absolutely not allowed to fail, outside of player death due to normal game-play errors. The PC can NOT fail the Harrowing. The PC is a special snowflake in just about every Fade sequence. Heck, even when making deals with demons, the PC always has the upper hand.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

They can, but do they simply want to destroy everything just because they are Mages?

Most countries have nuclear power, do they just simply push a button and launch nuclear warhead missiles? Most countries have nuclear reactor, do all of them blown up because becoming unstable? Some countries have nuclear submarine with nuclear warhead missiles, do all the captain goes nut and blow up some countries just because they are suddenly become crazy?

Nuclear weapons are BUILT. They are STRICTLY CONTROLLED and no single person can use them. There have multiple failsafes and are overseen by the most powerfull organizations with the strongest security.

So if you want to compare mages to nuke,s you failed.

No...Mages are Human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarf. They are all sentient beings, the beings that have conscience, have mind and have brain, they are not animals, even animals know when to use their fangs and claws. A cat not likely just want to attack your face.

Which doesn't change the fact that they are extreemly dangerous.
You cannot ignore thair dangerous nature because they are sentient.

[Boycott Bioware]

But you don't experience what they experienced and well they have also absolute protection on some things.For example 99 % peoples wouldn't handle so much as warden stoping blight alone with such mess around and do that without whining or with minimum (if player decides). As well mage warden can't be possessed that same for hawke. When it becomes hard most peoples just forget about morals and conscience disappears more and more we can drive our pc without being put on their situations and pc armor protects us from danger in some way.

The Warden and Hawke is just a character played by you in the game, they cannot move an inch without you direct them, you control them...they are your alter ego. Despite everything that you want to do with them, become a psycho Warden/Hawke for example, that psycho Warden/Hawke never become an abomination...and that psycho Warden/Hawke magic never bring destruction on earth...because no matter how fantasy it is, fantasy don't work that way

There are many crazy players today, especially in open world game, who shoot NPCs just for lulz, but fantasy have it's own rule, and that rule make sure the player don't achieve anything by doing that

And so in DA world, there is nothing to achieve for the Mage Warden and Mage Hawke to become psycho murderer or abomination.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which doesn't change the fact that they are extreemly dangerous.
You cannot ignore thair dangerous nature because they are sentient.

I see them as human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races they are...I believe their conscience, i believe they have the same conscience as me. As i can become crazy or bad and harm anything by any means, so they can harm anything by their power, but do we want to harm anything with no reason?

You and Andrasterians see them as "pests"

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

But you don't experience what they experienced and well they have also absolute protection on some things.For example 99 % peoples wouldn't handle so much as warden stoping blight alone with such mess around and do that without whining or with minimum (if player decides). As well mage warden can't be possessed that same for hawke. When it becomes hard most peoples just forget about morals and conscience disappears more and more we can drive our pc without being put on their situations and pc armor protects us from danger in some way.

The Warden and Hawke is just a character played by you in the game, they cannot move an inch without you direct them, you control them...they are your alter ego. Despite everything that you want to do with them, become a psycho Warden/Hawke for example, that psycho Warden/Hawke never become an abomination...and that psycho Warden/Hawke magic never bring destruction on earth...because no matter how fantasy it is, fantasy don't work that way

There are many crazy players today, especially in open world game, who shoot NPCs just for lulz, but fantasy have it's own rule, and that rule make sure the player don't achieve anything by doing that

And so in DA world, there is nothing to achieve for the Mage Warden and Mage Hawke to become psycho murderer or abomination.

yes but as i said player isn't mage and can't turn into abomnation so we hardly can say that we are immune to possession because our pc is as well whether we could take that same choice we take as warden if we would be in that same situation.

For example you are the warden you see bandits and woman who is attacked by them what do most players gladly help her what most that peoples do when it happens in real life just turn away.

And as i said warden and hawke can't become abomnation because they are special super-humans being what is shaped by player.

And when it becomes about being psycho murderer and abomnations mages have first place on the podium.

Qistina wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which doesn't change the fact that they are extreemly dangerous.
You cannot ignore thair dangerous nature because they are sentient.

I
see them as human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races they are...I believe
their conscience, i believe they have the same conscience as me. As i
can become crazy or bad and harm anything by any means, so they can harm
anything by their power, but do we want to harm anything with no
reason?

You and Andrasterians see them as "pests"

Humans rarely go ax crazy mages often as we are proven mages reminds me sith lords almost always super di*** or insane,And still we have possession and that include harming everything without reason. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 octobre 2013 - 05:34 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...

They can, but do they simply want to destroy everything just because they are Mages?

Most countries have nuclear power, do they just simply push a button and launch nuclear warhead missiles? Most countries have nuclear reactor, do all of them blown up because becoming unstable? Some countries have nuclear submarine with nuclear warhead missiles, do all the captain goes nut and blow up some countries just because they are suddenly become crazy?

Nuclear weapons are BUILT. They are STRICTLY CONTROLLED and no single person can use them. There have multiple failsafes and are overseen by the most powerfull organizations with the strongest security.

So if you want to compare mages to nuke,s you failed.

No...Mages are Human, Elf, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarf. They are all sentient beings, the beings that have conscience, have mind and have brain, they are not animals, even animals know when to use their fangs and claws. A cat not likely just want to attack your face.

Which doesn't change the fact that they are extreemly dangerous.
You cannot ignore thair dangerous nature because they are sentient.

But you must take all the more care because they are sentient, because they are people first and mages second. 

[Boycott Bioware]

yes but as i said player isn't mage and can't turn into abomnation so we hardly can say that we are immune to possession because our pc is as well whether we could take that same choice we take as warden if we would be in that same situation.

For example you are the warden you see bandits and woman who is attacked by them what do most players gladly help her what most that peoples do when it happens in real life just turn away.

Again, they are your alter ego, their decision is your decision, your Warden may just leave Redcliffe to ruin because it is you who decide that based on your thinking that "why should i risk my life here while we have greater danger?"

And as i said warden and hawke can't become abomnation because they are special super-humans being what is shaped by player.

And when it becomes about being psycho murderer and abomnations mages have first place on the podium.

Player character don't become abomination become a lore...the game not allow it and there is no way for player character becoming abomination. The player character will always aware

It show that Mages are not just simply becoming abomination because they are Mages

But the game allow the player character become a psycho killer and abuse authority like the psycho Warden....that show that it is all up to the person. Becoming abomination is not as dangerous as a person who abuse authority and becoming psycho killer just for the lulz

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Humans rarely go ax crazy mages often as we are proven mages reminds me sith lords almost always super di*** or insane,And still we have possession and that include harming everything without reason.

Kelder, Bartrand and Meredith are crazy...Kelder maybe just crazy, but Bartrand and Meredith is assumed because of the idol, they all bring destruction worse than any abomination

Tarohne is crazy, but all her craziness she just put demons into Templar...her magic didn't harm as much as Bartrand and Meredith does. Tarohne is not possesed and not an abomination

Quentin is crazy, but he only kill selected victim, his magic didn't as devastation as kelder, Bartrand and Meredith does. Quentin not possessed and not an abomination

Anders, an abomination...the destruction he does is by using a BOMB, and only destroying a building and those priests, he do that is his own plan, not the spirit and he's crazy

Fenris killing peoples with his power...no need demons for that, he can be good or can be bad using his power...most companions suggest he use his power to pick pocket

What's the different...crazy peoples are crazy

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

yes but as i said player isn't mage and can't turn into abomnation so we hardly can say that we are immune to possession because our pc is as well whether we could take that same choice we take as warden if we would be in that same situation.

For example you are the warden you see bandits and woman who is attacked by them what do most players gladly help her what most that peoples do when it happens in real life just turn away.

Again, they are your alter ego, their decision is your decision, your Warden may just leave Redcliffe to ruin because it is you who decide that based on your thinking that "why should i risk my life here while we have greater danger?"

And as i said warden and hawke can't become abomnation because they are special super-humans being what is shaped by player.

And when it becomes about being psycho murderer and abomnations mages have first place on the podium.

Player character don't become abomination become a lore...the game not allow it and there is no way for player character becoming abomination. The player character will always

It show that Mages are just simply becoming abomination because they are Mages

But the game allow the player character become a psycho killer and abuse authority like the psycho Warden....that show that it is all up to the person. Becoming abomination is not as dangerous as a person who abuse authority and becoming psycho killer just for the lulz

Pc is in your control and you take decisions but you take that decisions without being pushed in that situations so you may play though but pc is your creation and is abomnation in own way.

And about second we have also warden who slain army himself because he is pc what makes him special badass one man army who can fight with gods so we can say that warden is so baaaaadasss that demons can't possess the warden that the warden can posses them! 

And as i said pc is superpowerful chuck norris what can't be stopped and becoming abomnation is more dangerous than normal person who abuse authority and peoples rarely become psycho killer what can't be said about mages but abuse their authority yes.

Qistina wrote...

Kelder, Bartrand and Meredith are
crazy...Kelder maybe just crazy, but Bartrand and Meredith is assumed
because of the idol, they all bring destruction worse than any
abomination

Tarohne is crazy, but all her craziness she just put
demons into Templar...her magic didn't harm as much as Bartrand and
Meredith does. Tarohne is not possesed and not an abomination

Quentin
is crazy, but he only kill selected victim, his magic didn't as
devastation as kelder, Bartrand and Meredith does. Quentin not possessed
and not an abomination

Anders, an abomination...the destruction
he does is by using a BOMB, and only destroying a building and those
priests, he do that is his own plan, not the spirit and he's crazy

Fenris
killing peoples with his power...no need demons for that, he can be
good or can be bad using his power...most companions suggest he use his
power to pick pocket

What's the different...crazy peoples are crazy

peoples you pointed were rare cases when bartrand and meredith become crazy because extremely rare item (magical)and kelder was just insane what it happens in real life but still they don't cause massive destruction mostly few murders.

And still who created fenris mages!

Anders isn't abomnation in normal sense when abomnation is just monster what wants destruction or
realize their goals by pure destrucion.Thats difference we talk about crazy we talk about small part of humans when it comes about mages we talk about most.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 octobre 2013 - 06:01 .

[Boycott Bioware]

All these "Mages are dangerous" are Chantry propaganda, the one who believe that have fallen to the propaganda. And that show there is no middle ground, no compromise, because it is only one sided, it have been decided by the ANDRASTERIAN fanatics

No middle ground, no compromise