810 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Qistina wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
And this is major problem with your arguments, Qistina. You're putting them into real life present day standards, instead of medieval fantasy.

Thedas isn't medieval, and not "medieval fantasy" either. It is a "modern world with sword and magic."

The issue in the game isn't medieval, but modern issues

Yeah, no.
Dragon Age clearly still has feudal system, caste system, low to non-existent democracy, no social programs( not even something as public schools), no secularism, religion has big political power, religious wars( Exalted Marches are pretty much Crusades), religious military orders and many more.

That's very medieval and very VERY far from modern.

Only thing "modern" is women being equal to men and bigotry on same-sex relationships and transgenders. But that's not even modern as:
A) We still today in modern societies have trouble with all of those
Some ancient and some "primitive" societies in past didn't had some of all of those issues


I have no idea what makes you think this is just "modern world with sword and magic".
If someone at Bioware said such thing, then that person is very deeply wrong.

[Boycott Bioware]

Mesina2 wrote...
Yeah, no.
Dragon Age clearly still has feudal system, caste system, low to non-existent democracy, no social programs( not even something as public schools), no secularism, religion has big political power, religious wars( Exalted Marches are pretty much Crusades), religious military orders and many more.

We have all that today, in different form and name

Japanese still have emperor, some countries still have kings, British still have Queen

DA have school, everyone is educated, they can read and write, there's even spam letters on Hawke desk

Kirkwal leaders elected by nobles with Templar support, no difference than puppet leaders in USA occupied lands today...

What once called "Crusade" now called "War on Terror"....

It is nothing different

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 08:54 .

[errant_knight]

I really don't know what to say. Yes, the writers are very good at writing stories that are meaningful to us and make us think about our own world, but this is clearly a medieval society in virtually every respect. It doesn't have the diplomatic or social framework to achieve such egalitarian goals--especially when you consider that we can't even come close in our modern world.

Even if it wasn't medieval, setting out ideal goals from one factions point of view as an end goal doesn't get any closer to a solution. Not one that has anything to do with a middle ground.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 octobre 2013 - 08:46 .

[CroGamer002]

Qistina wrote...

We have all that today, in different form and name

Japanese still have emperor, some countries still have kings

First of all I did not name monarchy in my list, but even then I should have.
Since present day monarchy has very little power and they're basically unelected president of certain countries.

But besides USA, presidents don't really have any function but to be over-glorified ambassador or when country is in dire need for quick decisions( i.e. war). And even then they still need parliament and especially Prime Minister's approval.

In past, monarchies had a lot of power and function in civil manners.

DA have school, everyone is educated, they can read and write, there's even spam letters on Hawke desk

Just because there's a bunch of people knowing how to read, it doesn't mean there's some public education.
Quite a lot of people could read in late medieval time without public school system, just not majority.

Kirkwal leaders elected by nobles with Templar support, no difference than puppet leaders in USA occupied lands today...

Hmh, no?
Kirkwall pretty much functions as Elective Monarchy( nobles elect another noble for a king) or Merchant Republic( landed merchants elect another landed merchant as dodge).

And US puppet states have normal democracies that any citizen can vote for. There just may or may not be voter fraud, whatever it's assisted or not by US.

What once called "Crusade" now called "War on Terror"....

It is nothing different

What?! No!
Crusades are NOTHING like war on terror.

Crusades are way too complicated issue to be oversimplify like that.

Just because they have "us vs them" mentality, it doesn't mean they are the same. Otherwise every damn war since ever( both real life and fiction) is a war on terror.

[drake heath]

What are you guys talking about?

International conventions? United Nations? Public education?

This game is set in a quasi-medieval setting, anyone who proposed anything like that for Thedas would be laughed out of the room.
Hell, those notions are laughable even in our so-called enlightened modern times.

Those concepts are impossible on a large scale due to several longistic or culural issues with a society like Thedas, it would be like saying we (modern Earth) should cure hunger by using replicators.

Modifié par drake heath, 26 octobre 2013 - 10:06 .

[CroGamer002]

^Pretty much.

[errant_knight]

<--remembers how awesome SG-1 was. Sigh....

But more on topic, any solution would have to take the existing fears and prejudices into account, not handwave them.

[Vit246]

Rather than the old-school Medieval, I would like to think Thedas is more of a.....Renaissance period.

Modifié par Vit246, 26 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .

[errant_knight]

It has the 'society in flux' aspects of the renaissance, but is more feudal in outlook, I think. Ferelden may be a slight exception to that, because although considered culturally primative, they do have some rudimentary aspects of democracy. They're all a long way from world level diplomacy though. Just imagine trying to negotiate with the imperium, lol

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 octobre 2013 - 11:06 .

[Iosev]

For compromise to occur, I think both sides (i.e., mages and non-mages) need to accept some negative consequences. Mages ultimately have to accept that there will be more scrutiny in their lives compared to regular people, while non-mages have to learn how to accept and live alongside mages, despite the potential danger.

Circles need to be reformed from their current prison-like nature into places of education, where graduates are given the freedom to re-integrate with society, because without integration, neither side will ever relate with the other. I mean, why would a mage use his or her powers for the benefit of society, when society constantly shuns him/her?

However, I'm guessing that the Chantry is the primary source of education for most people on Thedas, so I doubt these reforms would ever occur, due to its beliefs on magic. Unless Thedas undergoes its own "Age of Enlightenment", I don't see much hope for a middle ground.

[Dermain]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Prove it is forced.[/quote]
 
Proof: 
[quote]Most humans are taught by the Chantry to fear magic and those who practice it. Mages are looked upon as people to be pitied at best, and hated at worst. The average citizen sincerely believes that the Circle exists only to protect mages and help them learn to control their abilities.[/quote]


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Becasue they sacked Val Royaux and pissed off the entire human race.
[/quote]

Right....

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

[quote]In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. [5] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.[6] Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.[/quote][quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yeah, that is not what was happening at all. You don't have a very good grasp on the lore do you?[/quote]
[/quote]

See above.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And the hundred other mages we meet, who shows no signs of self-loathing, they of course doesn't count. I mean, they don't support your ****** claim, so how could they possibly count, right?[/quote]

He asked for a specific source of the idea of "Forced self loathing", I provided it. I am puzzled on why you are going on this whole passive-aggressive personal attack on me though. 


More Dalish Mage quotes:

[quote]Among non-humans, attitudes towards magic vary. The Dalish are, for all intents and purposes, the most accepting of their mages. Dalish believe that study of magic is key to rediscovering their lost history, and thus are far more tolerant of the presence of magic in their lives. They do, however, acknowledge the inherent danger of magic, and take strides to reduce the risk. Typically a clan will try to keep the number of mages in their group to a minimum by exchanging mage children with other Dalish clans. These children will be personally instructed by the new tribe's Keeper, and if they demonstrate sufficient aptitude will be elevated to be the Keeper's First, an apprentice expected to one day become the clan's new Keeper. Every Dalish clan is sworn to protect its Keeper to the death, and should the Keeper fall to demonic possession, the clan is bound to hunt and slay the Keeper. This happens rarely, however, as most Keepers are wise and careful enough to never make deals with demons or use blood magic.[/quote]

Modifié par Myrkale, 26 octobre 2013 - 11:50 .

[errant_knight]

arcelonious wrote...

For compromise to occur, I think both sides (i.e., mages and non-mages) need to accept some negative consequences. Mages ultimately have to accept that there will be more scrutiny in their lives compared to regular people, while non-mages have to learn how to accept and live alongside mages, despite the potential danger.

Circles need to be reformed from their current prison-like nature into places of education, where graduates are given the freedom to re-integrate with society, because without integration, neither side will ever relate with the other. I mean, why would a mage use his or her powers for the benefit of society, when society constantly shuns him/her?

However, I'm guessing that the Chantry is the primary source of education for most people on Thedas, so I doubt these reforms would ever occur, due to its beliefs on magic. Unless Thedas undergoes its own "Age of Enlightenment", I don't see much hope for a middle ground.

I think you're right unless circumstances force a 'compromise or die' situation. Just look at how difficult it is for factional representatives on the forum to consider compromise

[StarcloudSWG]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other.

Templars are not only meant to watch the mages, they are their protectors aswell. The Templars protect mages not only from the threat of religious fanatics, but Templars also serve to protect the mages should abominations or blood mages come knocking. The Harrowing is a trial by fire, but so is combat in general now isn't it?

Andraste was not against mages, just Tevinter and blood magic. Mages are unfortunately highly dangerous individuals. Their powers are in themselves dangerous. They are not inherently evil, simply dangerous. And, the people who do not posses this gift are suspicious, probably reasonably so. To say "The mages should be free!" is like saying that guns should be everywhere. It's an idiotic notion, but the virtue of freedom is a dear one to the Western world (perhaps others as well, simply speaking from experience)

Safety and Freedom are brothers, inseparable and constantly vying for power. Both are necessary for a health, viable, non-oppressive society.

The Circle was the best solution, and while they have been dissolved, they were the only workable solution and best protected the freedom and the lives of the majority and taught the mages how to control the immense power at their disposal'

I suppose the point is.........

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Because of this. Templars as 'prison guards' inevitably abuse their prisoners. Maybe not all of them, maybe not all the time, but the dynamic is a psychologically destructive one.

[errant_knight]

And this is why all the south will no doubt be speaking Qunari in 20 years, lol.

[LadyRaena13]

Qistina: I would like to point out that while yes the Japanese still have an Emperor he has no real power, he serves a figure head for the Japanese people. The prime minister (much like the English) serves along with the house of Diet a bunch of countries has converted to democracy or parliament representative type political system.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

First connor and jowan destroing castle and village why because they are mages we have deal with that problem.

i. Isolde don't want to send Connor to the Circle because her son will lost his title and everything as the Arl son, she don't want to be separated with his son, and she ashamed because she's RELIGIOUS
ii. Isolde hired an apostate that being suggested by LOGHAIN

Above reasons that lead to Redcliffe problem, in which driven from the existence of the Circle and Chantry propaganda

Second Zathrian and his curse why we have werewolves because mage

Zathrian curse the human bandits that rape the Elf girl, those bandits are not just "bandits" i suspect but that is another matter, Zathrian just living with his vengeance, he cannot forgive and he cannot forget...but the Warden can make him realize his mistake and willingly die to end the curse. Even so, humans are still the same

Third Tower of mages well here i don't have even speak i hope.

The problem don't exist if the tower don't exist

Fourth blight what was probably caused by mages at least it wouldn't happened without mages.

Then those Mages should be hold responsible, not all Mages

All this disasters caused by mages and i skip side quests.

The disasters are the effect of the disease caused by the system itself that run by the Chantry

1.It doesn't matter how many connors we will have if mages will be free guess.
2.That too doesn't matter he created curse and deliver unbelievable harm on others and own clan just because he was angry how many cases we will have like that?
3. But mages exist and how easily that "trained" mages become abomnation very fast.
4.Still it is caused by mages how long it will take to another mages will try get power for example sucking the fade or experiment with something brining another disaster and they bring disasters every day.

Did avernous was effect caused by system run by chantry ?
Did blight was caused by system that is driving by chantry?
That unbond in city is chantry fault?
harvesters in goa are chantry fault?

Mages can't be trusted they are power hungry and demon ticking bomb in end of the day we can count that mage will bring disaster they simply don't deserve to live and are too weak to survive. 

 

[Boycott Bioware]

1.It doesn't matter how many connors we will have if mages will be free guess.

There are no Connors if there are no Circles

2.That too doesn't matter he created curse and deliver unbelievable harm on others and own clan just because he was angry how many cases we will have like that?

Normal people could use poisons and toxins to pollute the river or well and make everyone sick and their children sick for generations

3. But mages exist and how easily that "trained" mages become abomnation very fast.

Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason

4.Still it is caused by mages how long it will take to another mages will try get power for example sucking the fade or experiment with something brining another disaster and they bring disasters every day.

Then those Mages should hold responsible, not all Mages

Did blight was caused by system that is driving by chantry?

The Blight cause is unknown, the rest is Chantry propaganda

Mages can't be trusted they are power hungry and demon ticking bomb in end of the day we can count that mage will bring disaster they simply don't deserve to live and are too weak to survive.

No one can be trusted because everyone can turn into power hungry persons, murderers, rapists, racists, chauvinist....ect....so just nuke the world and kill everyone, because no one deserve to live, they all will become corrupted and only bring disaster

Mages are born from Mages and non Mages, so just kill everyone, no Mages will be born

[dragonflight288]

Templars_____________________________________________________Mages

The line in the middle is the middle-ground, so to speak. In my mind, what we have isn't mages and templars, but instead something closer to this grid.


Lambert's/Meredith's____Cullen's/Gregoire's_______Ser Bryant's/Ser Otto's_________Evangeline's/Thrask's________Keili's______Finn's______Wynne's_______Irving's__________Rhys'______Awakening Anders_________Merrill's______Fiona's______DA2 Anders'_______Uldred's______Tahrone's______Tevinter.

Series of characters, leaders and personalities on varying ends of the spectrum.

I place Irving as slightly more extreme than Wynne because of his willingness to use Jowan and Lily as a way to punish the Chantry.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qistina wrote...

1.It doesn't matter how many connors we will have if mages will be free guess.

There are no Connors if there are no Circles

2.That too doesn't matter he created curse and deliver unbelievable harm on others and own clan just because he was angry how many cases we will have like that?

Normal people could use poisons and toxins to pollute the river or well and make everyone sick and their children sick for generations

3. But mages exist and how easily that "trained" mages become abomnation very fast.

Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason

4.Still it is caused by mages how long it will take to another mages will try get power for example sucking the fade or experiment with something brining another disaster and they bring disasters every day.

Then those Mages should hold responsible, not all Mages

Did blight was caused by system that is driving by chantry?

The Blight cause is unknown, the rest is Chantry propaganda

Mages can't be trusted they are power hungry and demon ticking bomb in end of the day we can count that mage will bring disaster they simply don't deserve to live and are too weak to survive.

No one can be trusted because everyone can turn into power hungry persons, murderers, rapists, racists, chauvinist....ect....so just nuke the world and kill everyone, because no one deserve to live, they all will become corrupted and only bring disaster

Mages are born from Mages and non Mages, so just kill everyone, no Mages will be born

1.Wait do you try to tell me that if we remove circles mages will gone? Just take random mage child what can at random day turn into abomnation considering how often adults mages turn into abomnation just guess what will happen with childrens. 

2.Yes but for what reason?Profit or insanity both in rare cases however humans will do horrible thing for profit mages can bring more destruction and suffering than one person.

3.Corry is prove that they step into the fade and is tainted so still whether that maker cursed them or simply they walk into something they shouldn't without mages we don't have blight. 

4."Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason"
What?! insanity isn't common it is rare well unless you see society as this but in that case it is different than mages insanity.

5.Well honestly humans are monsters either but mages are much much worse because they have much powerful tools to hurt and are vessel for demons nothing more nothing less they are literal monsters and thats was proved many times.  

[Johnny_TYS38]

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.

Well thats what i will do in my pt that same fate for chantry.

[Johnny_TYS38]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.

Well thats what i will do in my pt that same fate for chantry.

Yea! Let conduct genocide in the name of the Maker and andraste!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.

Well thats what i will do in my pt that same fate for chantry.

Yea! Let conduct genocide in the name of the Maker and andraste!

why for them better in my name and my power!

[Boycott Bioware]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Wait do you try to tell me that if we remove circles mages will gone? Just take random mage child what can at random day turn into abomnation considering how often adults mages turn into abomnation just guess what will happen with childrens.

2.Yes but for what reason?Profit or insanity both in rare cases however humans will do horrible thing for profit mages can bring more destruction and suffering than one person.

3.Corry is prove that they step into the fade and is tainted so still whether that maker cursed them or simply they walk into something they shouldn't without mages we don't have blight.

4."Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason"
What?! insanity isn't common it is rare well unless you see society as this but in that case it is different than mages insanity.

5.Well honestly humans are monsters either but mages are much much worse because they have much powerful tools to hurt and are vessel for demons nothing more nothing less they are literal monsters and thats was proved many times.

1. What i mean is, if there is no Circle, there is such case happen, Coonor will live happily as Arl son, Connor case happen because of the existence of the Circle and the system

2. A murderer like Kelder kill more Elven children and is protected by his Magistrate father than an ordinary apostate

3. The Blight is caused by mysterious reason, blaming on Mages and it's Chantry belief...for an non-Andrasterians the Blight is merely human problem, they only help when needed, or else no one care

4.from what we see in Kirkwal says that everyone can become crazy by any reason..."oh i found an idol", then becomes crazy

5. Then everyone should practice abortion, or everyone should be castrated, and so no Mages will born into the world.

With these kind of arguments, i think we should let the Maker destroy the world with the Blight, and then darkspawn can replace all races to inhabit the world...at least darkspawn are not chauvinists and not discriminate each other....

[RobRam10]

Qistina wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Wait do you try to tell me that if we remove circles mages will gone? Just take random mage child what can at random day turn into abomnation considering how often adults mages turn into abomnation just guess what will happen with childrens.

2.Yes but for what reason?Profit or insanity both in rare cases however humans will do horrible thing for profit mages can bring more destruction and suffering than one person.

3.Corry is prove that they step into the fade and is tainted so still whether that maker cursed them or simply they walk into something they shouldn't without mages we don't have blight.

4."Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason"
What?! insanity isn't common it is rare well unless you see society as this but in that case it is different than mages insanity.

5.Well honestly humans are monsters either but mages are much much worse because they have much powerful tools to hurt and are vessel for demons nothing more nothing less they are literal monsters and thats was proved many times.

1. What i mean is, if there is no Circle, there is such case happen, Coonor will live happily as Arl son, Connor case happen because of the existence of the Circle and the system

2. A murderer like Kelder kill more Elven children and is protected by his Magistrate father than an ordinary apostate

3. The Blight is caused by mysterious reason, blaming on Mages and it's Chantry belief...for an non-Andrasterians the Blight is merely human problem, they only help when needed, or else no one care

4.from what we see in Kirkwal says that everyone can become crazy by any reason..."oh i found an idol", then becomes crazy

5. Then everyone should practice abortion, or everyone should be castrated, and so no Mages will born into the world.

With these kind of arguments, i think we should let the Maker destroy the world with the Blight, and then darkspawn can replace all races to inhabit the world...at least darkspawn are not chauvinists and not discriminate each other....

You're crazy and this is heresy to the maximum levels.

Modifié par RobRam10, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:37 .