Aller au contenu

Photo

Middle Ground?


810 réponses à ce sujet

#301
SirGladiator

SirGladiator
  • Members
  • 1 143 messages
I think a lot of people, of varying opinions on the issue, try to compare it to modern day America/earth, and it's just too different to make any such comparison. Mages are people with powers that others don't have, that can be used for good or evil, if it stopped there it would be at least easier to make some kind of comparisons, but it doesn't. They're people who can be taken over by evil beings from another dimension and forced against their will to murder people, possibly a LOT of other people. That isn't something we see a lot of here on earth :) . Instead of trying to make comparisons to earth situations, that will inevitably fail to be good comparisons because there's really nothing to compare it to, just judge the situation on it's own merits and come up with the best solution that you can.

For me, the 'middle ground', or the correct answer, would be something similar, but less extreme, to what we saw in DAO. There are many mages who simply don't want the responsibility of knowing that they could, without even wanting to, be responsible for many, many deaths and are quite happy to be a part of the circle. Some even go so far as actually wanting to be made tranquil. So for all such people obviously the Circle is a place that they welcome, it's good for them, nothing to complain about. Others want freedom, all the same freedoms that everybody else has, and they see the Circles as a prison. So my answer is simple.

I don't think there's any question that the circles are necessary for young people, people who haven't yet learned to control their abilities, fight off the fade creatures, etc. Control of their abilities being essential not only for the survival of others, but for themselves, the Circle should continue it's educational functions. The change I would make is that it is clearly unnecessary to take a child from their parents and never let their family see them. The families should be free to visit at any time, and perhaps from time to time the young mage in question could be allowed to return home for a few days as well, that would probably have to depend on certain factors. Ultimately, once a mage has become an adult, passed their harrowing and proven that they can indeed fully control their powers, that they're as close to not being a danger to themselves and others as any mage could reasonably prove themselves to be, then they should be given ever-expanding freedoms, in terms of being able to leave the circle for extended periods of time, until eventually, so long as everything goes well, they're free to leave for good, should they desire to do so.

It's worth noting that as we saw in DAO, a well-run circle is a happy circle, and I'm not sure how many mages would actually want to leave. Certainly any mage that wants to remain in the circle, help teach other mages, rise up in the ranks and attain a greater status and more power, etc. should be free to do that as well.

Of course the other main issue of the Circle system is the possibility of Templars abusing their powers. That was not a problem in Ferelden, but clearly was in Kirkwall (of course in Kirkwall the mages were also a problem, there were a ton of crazy people on both sides, so Kirkwall is probably a bad example for anything) . Ultimately the Chantry should hold the Templars, and their leaders especially, to a very high standard. The role of the Templars is to protect mages from themselves, as well as to protect other innocent people by putting down mages who have become posessed. Their role isn't to be the 'boss' of the mages, they're more like police officers, they work for the people not the other way around.

The Circle system is a great system, there's room for improvement and I hope that we're able to influence that to some degree in DAI, ultimately so long as the mages and templars are working together instead of foolishly fighting each other any problems can be solved by reasonable leaders on both sides coming together and working them out peacefully and intelligently.

#302
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
i. Tarohne never harm anyone, she just put demons into Templars, dead killed by Hawke
ii. Quentin is a serial killer, anyone can be serial killer like Kelder, he's dead killed by Hawke
iii. Huon kill his wife, anyone could kill their wife, he's stopped by Hawke and dead
iv. The girl forgot his name live in darktown for long helpig poor Ferelden kids, but Templars who force her making her become abomination, dead killed by Hawke
v. Ser Thrask daughter want to be free but then get caught by slavers, forced her to become abomination, dead killed by Hawke
vi. Merethari become abomination because want to stop Merill repairing the mirror and yet the abomination is only appear in the cave and then dead killed by Hawke
vii. Fenriyel have dream problem, going to Dalish don't help him, going to Circle don't help him either, but going to Tevinter solve his problem, before that he only need confidence and Hawke can help him having confidence
viii. Decimus use Blood Magic, dead killed by hawke
ix. Idunna try to mind control Hawke, Hawke can resist, she's dead killed by Hawke
x. Abominations everywhere in Kirkwal, all dead killed by Hawke

See...nothing disastrous as the Chantry propaganda

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:42 .


#303
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

Qistina wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
1.Wait do you try to tell me that if we remove circles mages will gone? Just take random mage child what can at random day turn into abomnation considering how often adults mages turn into abomnation just guess what will happen with childrens.

2.Yes but for what reason?Profit or insanity both in rare cases however humans will do horrible thing for profit mages can bring more destruction and suffering than one person.

3.Corry is prove that they step into the fade and is tainted so still whether that maker cursed them or simply they walk into something they shouldn't without mages we don't have blight.

4."Normal peoples exist too and they could turn crazy easily for any reason"
What?! insanity isn't common it is rare well unless you see society as this but in that case it is different than mages insanity.

5.Well honestly humans are monsters either but mages are much much worse because they have much powerful tools to hurt and are vessel for demons nothing more nothing less they are literal monsters and thats was proved many times.


1. What i mean is, if there is no Circle, there is such case happen, Coonor will live happily as Arl son, Connor case happen because of the existence of the Circle and the system

2. A murderer like Kelder kill more Elven children and is protected by his Magistrate father than an ordinary apostate

3. The Blight is caused by mysterious reason, blaming on Mages and it's Chantry belief...for an non-Andrasterians the Blight is merely human problem, they only help when needed, or else no one care

4.from what we see in Kirkwal says that everyone can become crazy by any reason..."oh i found an idol", then becomes crazy

5. Then everyone should practice abortion, or everyone should be castrated, and so no Mages will born into the world.

With these kind of arguments, i think we should let the Maker destroy the world with the Blight, and then darkspawn can replace all races to inhabit the world...at least darkspawn are not chauvinists and not discriminate each other....


1.Nope not at all mages are demon magnets meredith sister is example what happens to mages if there is no circle most mages go into abomnation (not that they didn't do that with circle) demons will possess mages with or without circle.

2.Ordinary apostate is ordinary abomnation with few exceptions so i doubt that but if you want prove that humans are monsters well you don't have to.

3 .As i said corry he is tainted and he went to the fade and he bring taint into our world and as i said whether it was maker punishment what chantry claims or just accident in fade without mages there is no blight because they bring it.  

4.idol was magical item very rare and still you will have to kill red templars because they are mad and monsters as well like mages. 

5.well i said before might makes right and humans are at the top of the food chain and mages are below so mages don't have any rights if someone stronger will shows up well then he can do that.

By we who do you mean because humans will always try find meaning of life and hope well most will be glad if others will find that for them so hardly humans will just let be killed . 

#304
AlexanderCousland

AlexanderCousland
  • Members
  • 919 messages

Qistina wrote...

i. Tarohne never harm anyone, she just put demons into Templars, dead killed by Hawke
ii. Quentin is a serial killer, anyone can be serial killer like Kelder, he's dead killed by Hawke
iii. Huon kill his wife, anyone could kill their wife, he's stopped by Hawke and dead
iv. The girl forgot his name live in darktown for long helpig poor Ferelden kids, but Templars who force her making her become abomination, dead killed by Hawke
v. Ser Thrask daughter want to be free but then get caught by slavers, forced her to become abomination, dead killed by Hawke
vi. Merethari become abomination because want to stop Merill repairing the mirror and yet the abomination is only appear in the cave and then dead killed by Hawke
vii. Fenriyel have dream problem, going to Dalish don't help him, going to Circle don't help him either, but going to Tevinter solve his problem, before that he only need confidence and Hawke can help him having confidence
viii. Decimus use Blood Magic, dead killed by hawke
ix. Idunna try to mind control Hawke, Hawke can resist, she's dead killed by Hawke
x. Abominations everywhere in Kirkwal, all dead killed by Hawke

See...nothing disastrous as the Chantry propaganda


1. Lmfao @ "Oh she didnt do any harm, she just put a few harmless demons into some Templars that's all"
2. Yea I'm sure people kill other people and snitch different body parts together Yea... regular people are capable of killing your family and making Frankenstein' s out of their parts. That's sounds logical.
3.Oh yea. Regular Husbands can literally control their wife's bodies with their own minds, regular people use mind control all the time. In fact I just made the woman at the counter give me fellatio all because of my awsome magic. 
4. Yea. I want to kill everyone because Im so oppressed.. yadayadayada 
5. I got scared, So I turned into a creature that's capable of destroying a small city.
6. An Elf thought she could control a Demon and endangered her whole clan. 
7. Im a Mage, with the power to control thoughts and dreams of other people, but somehow that shouldn't matter because Im guaranteed to be a Good Mage, What could possibly go wrong?
8. Yea. Defend THAT one.
9. We have yet another Mind Controller
10. All the Abomination' s....you mean the ones that possessed the Mage's regardless of who you side with? 

#305
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
We don't even need magic to kill an abomination, we just need a good weapon with high damage, critical hit and critical damage, all abominations could dead in one shot

Abomination is nothing....nothing to fear about, they are not as dangerous as Chantry propaganda portray them

#306
errant_knight

errant_knight
  • Members
  • 8 256 messages
Sure, if you ignore lore in favor of game mechanics

Excellent post, SirGladiator. I'd say more but it's almost 4 and I'm basically asleep, lol.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 octobre 2013 - 09:42 .


#307
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

Qistina wrote...

We don't even need magic to kill an abomination, we just need a good weapon with high damage, critical hit and critical damage, all abominations could dead in one shot

Abomination is nothing....nothing to fear about, they are not as dangerous as Chantry propaganda portray them


Redcliffe without chuck norris they are doomed. 
Pride demon in dawn of the seeker.
Meredith sister.
Circle tower.

#308
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
Mage Hawke meet with demon possessed Profane

Profane : I have proposition for you
Mage Hawke : I can sense that you are a demon
Profane : I know where's the key, just listen to me
Mage Hawke : I refuse

Mage Hawke enter the Fade and meet with Sloth

Justice : This is Sloth demon...it...
Mage Hawke : I know what it is, shut up
Sloth : I have a proposition for you
Mage Hawke : I don't work with demons

It is just as simple as that!

#309
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

Qistina wrote...

Mage Hawke meet with demon possessed Profane

Profane : I have proposition for you
Mage Hawke : I can sense that you are a demon
Profane : I know where's the key, just listen to me
Mage Hawke : I refuse

Mage Hawke enter the Fade and meet with Sloth

Justice : This is Sloth demon...it...
Mage Hawke : I know what it is, shut up
Sloth : I have a proposition for you
Mage Hawke : I don't work with demons

It is just as simple as that!


yeah pc power especially that every companions except who is pc and anders who is already possessed falls to demon in fade so no simple as that and well 114115 possessed mages proves that.:mellow:

#310
Dermain

Dermain
  • Members
  • 4 476 messages

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Redcliffe without chuck norris they are doomed.  
Meredith sister. 
Circle tower.


These are just the failings of the Templars. For an Order dedicated to fighting mages and abominations they sure do a ****** poor job of it.

#311
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
The Mage Warden, Morrigan, Wayne and First Enchanter meet with Desire demon in the Fade

Desire Demon : I can give you anything you want
Mage Warden : Not interested

Desire Demon : I can give you anything you want
Morrigan : "F" you!

Desire Demon : I can give you anything you want
Waynne : I already possessed

Desire Demon : I can give you anything you want
Irving : I don't know what i want, i have been living in the Circle for my entire life

It is so simple as that

Edit :

Desire Demon :  I can give you anything you want
Jowan : Can't you tell? I am a Blood Mage

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:10 .


#312
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

Myrkale wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Redcliffe without chuck norris they are doomed.  
Meredith sister. 
Circle tower.


These are just the failings of the Templars. For an Order dedicated to fighting mages and abominations they sure do a ****** poor job of it.

i won't argue because im not templar supporter and i think that they are incompetent fanatics add corrupted here so i will agree but only on circle tower part and perhaps in some way in redcliffe but meredith sister wasn't their fault in any way. 


^ up plot armor david confirmed that isn't that simple in his interview and you can't simple fail connor fade part and i rly doubt that jowan have such willpower.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:15 .


#313
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Myrkale wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Prove it is forced.

 
Proof: 

Most humans are taught by the Chantry to fear magic and those who practice it. Mages are looked upon as people to be pitied at best, and hated at worst. The average citizen sincerely believes that the Circle exists only to protect mages and help them learn to control their abilities.


A quote from a unspecified source?
Not proof enough. Try again.
And again, the Chantry teaches the truth - magic is dangerous. People fear dangerous stuff.



right..*SNIP*


What do you think you proved with that?
Nothing.
Sez right there - they attacked Val Royaux

#314
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
Fenris : All Mages are open to temptation, all are weak minded fools who will take demon offer

In the Fade

Pride Demon : Don't you want to be equal with the Magisters?
Fenris : What you want me to do?

F for Fenris

My point is, it is up to individual, no one is forced to accept demon offer, no one is forced to accept anything. If everyone is forced to accept then it is not a choice

Me : I offer you this graphic card, you can't resist, you must accept this
You : Okay okay....

#315
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages
Why are you people still arguing with Qistina?

I mean, after statements like these:

Qistina wrote...

There are no Connors if there are no Circles


You know any reason has left he building eons ago.


I mean, she actually believes demons are not a problem because Hawke/Warden cna kill them. She can't even coprehend gameplay and story segregation.
And she cannot phantom that the PLAYER is not really tempted by anything because he's the player and not the actual character, and thusdoes nto accurately represent a normal human being in Thedas.

Either an epic level troll or an epic level faliure of thought.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:36 .


#316
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
Connor become abomination after reading Jowan's book, the tutor hired by Isolde who don't want her son be taken to the Circle, because want to help his father Arl Eamon who got poisoned by Jowan under instruction of Logain

Not clear enough?

The main reason that happen is "Isolde don't want to send his son to the CIRCLE because her son will lost everything"

Things that Connor will lost when going to the Circle

i. Title
ii. Inheritance
iii. Land and everything on it

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:38 .


#317
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Qistina wrote...

Connors become abomination after reading Jowan's book, the tutor hired by Isolde who don't want her son be taken to the Circle, because want to help his father Arl eamon who got poisoned by Jowan under instruction of Logain

Not clear enough?

The main reason that happen is "Isolde don't want to send his son to the CIRCLE because his son will lost everything"


No, the main reson it happened is because Connor was a mage.

Mages will be tempted, PERIOD.

Without the circles, there would STILL be demons, there would STILL be sickneses and pressures and many other life problems a demon can use. There will STILL be times of weakness and amominations nad possesions will still happen.

#318
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, the main reson it happened is because Connor was a mage.


No, because of the existence of the Circle system

#319
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages
Image IPB

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:48 .


#320
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
When there is no Circle and the Chantry

i. There is no Jowan
ii. Isolde no need to fear her son being taken away and lost everything
iii. Redcliffe tragedy will not happen because there is no Jowan and Isolde will not hire Jowan
iv. Isolde no need to hide about her son because being ashamed, the Chantry religion that teach every mother should be ashamed giving birth a Mage

Nothing happen if there is no Circle and the Chantry, everything will go fine and as normal as it can be

#321
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

Qistina wrote...

When there is no Circle and the Chantry

i. There is no Jowan
ii. Isolde no need to fear her son being taken away and lost everything
iii. Redcliffe tragedy will not happen because there is no Jowan and Isolde will not hire Jowan
iv. Isolde no need to hide about her son because being ashamed, the Chantry religion that teach every mother should be ashamed giving birth a Mage

Nothing happen if there is no Circle and the Chantry, everything will go fine and as normal as it can be


yeah because jowan also was cause meredith sister turning into abomination.:)

#322
Boycott Bioware

Boycott Bioware
  • Banned
  • 3 511 messages
If there is no Circle, no Jowan being hired by Isolde, no "Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon as instructed by Loghain because want to escape punishment' will happen, Connor will not read demonic book of Jowan to help his father, Connor will not be possessed

Image IPB
Image IPB
Image IPB

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .


#323
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 673 messages

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.


Here are a few reasons why not:

1. Genocide is obviously ethically and morally wrong and definitely way worse then infringement of rights.

2. For every bad mage, there are 9 other good mages. They don't all deserve to die, just for bad minority.

3. Mages are very useful to societies, as they can do many things that non-mages can't.


The problem is, when 1 out of 10 mages goes bad it's like a tank going rouge. Worse of all, if it turns into abomination. Then it's a tank with ICBM missiles( yes, I'm blatantly stealing someone's allegory on that).
And good mages can become an abomination, usually due to fear of certain death by younger mages.
And then there's blood magic, in which sometimes good mages use it out of desperation or thinking they're too good to fall under demons. Most of the time, they do fall under demons.


The Circle is there to protect everyone from those dangers. Both mages and non-mages. And it worked well for a long time, but now it needs to reform it's system or be replaced by other similar but better system.

#324
LOLandStuff

LOLandStuff
  • Members
  • 3 107 messages
Even if there was no Jowan, Connor would have attracted a demon sooner or later. Without proper education he wouldn't know what's going on and would be tricked. You don't need a book to lure demons.

#325
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Qistina wrote...

Nothing happen if there is no Circle and the Chantry, everything will go fine and as normal as it can be


"Normal" in this case being mages turning into demons.

Explain to me how the un-existance of Circles would prevent mage possesion?

Isolde was an idiot - more concerned about Connors title than his safety. If she did what the Chantry tought - give mages to the Circle to train - THEN the tragedy would have been avoided.