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Middle Ground?


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#326
Johnny_TYS38

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Mesina2 wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.


Here are a few reasons why not:

1. Genocide is obviously ethically and morally wrong and definitely way worse then infringement of rights.

2. For every bad mage, there are 9 other good mages. They don't all deserve to die, just for bad minority.

3. Mages are very useful to societies, as they can do many things that non-mages can't.


The problem is, when 1 out of 10 mages goes bad it's like a tank going rouge. Worse of all, if it turns into abomination. Then it's a tank with ICBM missiles( yes, I'm blatantly stealing someone's allegory on that).
And good mages can become an abomination, usually due to fear of certain death by younger mages.
And then there's blood magic, in which sometimes good mages use it out of desperation or thinking they're too good to fall under demons. Most of the time, they do fall under demons.


The Circle is there to protect everyone from those dangers. Both mages and non-mages. And it worked well for a long time, but now it needs to reform it's system or be replaced by other similar but better system.


1. Agreed. Genocide is wrong on all levels. I was just trying to be sarcastic :lol: 

2. I would agree with you but people are taking all those example of bad mages and using them as evidence that mages should be treated like prisoner 

3. There are benefits of magic like being a healer that can treat injuries and illness, enchanting and many others things. 

This where the templars should be doing their job, defending against the dangers of magic and demons, not acting like bullys. I felt that blood magic is like walking along a line of good and bad. There benefits of blood magic and there are also risk and dangers of blood magic.

The orginal intenions of the circle are good. Protecting mages from themselves and educating them to use their gifts in a proper way but as times passes, power and authority shift to the templars most of the time, they abuse it. I agree that the middle ground that will be able to resolve the conflict would be to reform the old system such that both side will be treated as equal. 

#327
TheKomandorShepard

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Mesina2 wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

If mages are so dangerous as what you have said, Why not just kill them during infancy or once they have been discovered the ability to use magic? Why give them false hope? By doing that,no one has to deal with any problem at all. No more mages, no need for establishment of the circle, no need for templars, the conflict will not have happen.


Here are a few reasons why not:

1. Genocide is obviously ethically and morally wrong and definitely way worse then infringement of rights.

2. For every bad mage, there are 9 other good mages. They don't all deserve to die, just for bad minority.

3. Mages are very useful to societies, as they can do many things that non-mages can't.


The problem is, when 1 out of 10 mages goes bad it's like a tank going rouge. Worse of all, if it turns into abomination. Then it's a tank with ICBM missiles( yes, I'm blatantly stealing someone's allegory on that).
And good mages can become an abomination, usually due to fear of certain death by younger mages.
And then there's blood magic, in which sometimes good mages use it out of desperation or thinking they're too good to fall under demons. Most of the time, they do fall under demons.


The Circle is there to protect everyone from those dangers. Both mages and non-mages. And it worked well for a long time, but now it needs to reform it's system or be replaced by other similar but better system.


1.Life in hell is worse than dying as well living as empty shell locking peoples isn't ethically and morally right either so you are crying that something is morally wrong or just don't care and morality depends on you.
2.You wanted say for every 9 bad and insane mages we have 1 sane/good mage and then they are turning into abomnations more often than dr house takes his pills.
3.Besides healing what is heavily restricted by rules of magic they aren't useful and technology can replace that and now compare mages advantage with every disaster they created so nope.

And there is no middle ground one side ends fu*** in ass and circle is this for mages giving non-mages ultimate power over mages middle ground is giving mages freedom which will ultimatly lead to mages taking control and another end of circle abusing non-mages by mages or mages by non-mages. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 27 octobre 2013 - 12:53 .


#328
AlexanderCousland

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Qistina wrote...

If there is no Circle, no Jowan being hired by Isolde, no "Jowan poisoning Arl Eamon as instructed by Loghain because want to escape punishment' will happen, Connor will not read demonic book of Jowan to help his father, Connor will not be possessed

This baffles me. Isn't it Mage supporters who say "dont blame the group for action' s of the few" but yet your blaming the Cirlce for Jowan's decision to turn to Blood Magic? 

Okay. I can engage you on that level.
Lohgain would have inevitability tried to posion Arl Eamon because he was trying to convince Cailin to leave Anora, and especially when he became aware Cailin was planning to turn Ferelden into Orlais by marrying Celene. The Circle has nothing to do with why Eamon is poisoned, I suggest that a Mage would have been hired, apostate or circle, to carry out the deed anyway.:) 

#329
Lotion Soronarr

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...
middle ground is giving mages freedom


That is not middle ground.

#330
TheKomandorShepard

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
middle ground is giving mages freedom


That is not middle ground.



yep it is others are mages are controled or mages control.

Mages freedom remove both however sooner or later it will swing into mages control or are controled.   

#331
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FreshIstay wrote...
This baffles me. Isn't it Mage supporters who say "dont blame the group for action' s of the few" but yet your blaming the Cirlce for Jowan's decision to turn to Blood Magic?


Jowan is the product of the Circle system

Lohgain would have inevitability tried to posion Arl Eamon because he was trying to convince Cailin to leave Anora, and especially when he became aware Cailin was planning to turn Ferelden into Orlais by marrying Celene. The Circle has nothing to do with why Eamon is poisoned, I suggest that a Mage would have been hired, apostate or circle, to carry out the deed anyway.smilie


Loghain would poison Arl Eamon, but it is not Jowan who did it, someone else, maybe Antivan Crow or whatever. Connor only become abomination after reading Jowan's book, if Antivan Crow or someone else who poison Arl Eamon, Connor don't become abomination and Redcliffe tragedy don't happen

#332
EmperorSahlertz

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That isn't entirely correct. Conner read from Jowan's book which helped him summon a demon yes. But had Jowan not been there, Conner could ahve contacted a demon in other ways. So for as long as Arl Eamon was being poisoned, a chance for COnner to turn into an Abomination would be present.

#333
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Even if there was no Jowan, Connor would have attracted a demon sooner or later. Without proper education he wouldn't know what's going on and would be tricked. You don't need a book to lure demons.


Connor i believe about 13 to 16 years old...Mage Hawke is 24 when running from Ostagar, Bethany is 22-23...they didn't lured by demon whatsoever

There are so many Mages that are not under the Chantry control out there, Thedas is big and Templars are just few, how many new born Mages who grow up freely, we never know...yet Thedas is safe everyday...

let say a couple got married now somewhere in Thedas, then they have a child, that child grow up somewhere in Thedas...how many couples married in a day? How many children are born in a day? How many of them are Mages? How many Templars to check every child born everyday?

Children that born somewhere in Thedas 16 years ago are now reach maturity, if they are Mages they surely have discover their talent, and soon they become Mages automatically, and they live not under Templar supervision at all...now make your counting 16 years ago how many children are born in Thedas?

Templar supporters never think of this because they only see with one eye...

#334
errant_knight

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ok, I get it now... the pro mage thread, the templar thread and the middle ground all have exactly the same discussion.

#335
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If Chantry propaganda is true, then Thedas already destroyed long ago because Thedas is roamed by abominations who was Mages born 50, 49, 48....20, 19, 18,17....years ago...children born everyday, if statistic is 40 children born everyday, if 25 out of 40 children born 20 years ago are Mages, Thedas have 25 20 years old Mages now...as well as 25 19 years old, 25 18 years old...and so on...

If Chantry propaganda is true...Thedas is long gone roamed by abominations

Edit : Surely the scale is bigger than example i give...if anyone want to make a statistic, go ahead, count your self

Image IPB

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:34 .


#336
Lazy Jer

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errant_knight wrote...

ok, I get it now... the pro mage thread, the templar thread and the middle ground all have exactly the same discussion.


It also shows up in threads the don't mention mages or Templars.

#337
EmperorSahlertz

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Uhm... Not even close to 25 in 40 of all newborns end up being mages. You are actually claiming that over 50% of the Thedosian population are mages? Are you daft?
Far more likely that it is something as disappearingly small as 1 in 100 is a mage, though even that might be shooting way to high. Mages are a MINORITY, so 25 in 40 is completely skewered...

#338
errant_knight

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Lazy Jer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ok, I get it now... the pro mage thread, the templar thread and the middle ground all have exactly the same discussion.


It also shows up in threads the don't mention mages or Templars.


Lol. Is that funny or depressing?

#339
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After make your counting, then count how many children who are Mages are born Andrasterians, how many Dalish and how many Qunari...

Mages population is nearly THE SAME amount as non-Mage....If Chantry propaganda is true, everyday half of the population of Thedas are abominations

How many Templars are there to check on every children born everyday? Eh..?

Yet, Thedas is the same everyday...despite what the Chantry propagate about Mages, Thedas is not loaded with abominations....

How many Mages goes to the Circle? Only few out of millions Mages in Thedas

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .


#340
errant_knight

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It's good to know *someone* is taking surveys in a time of war. Can't let the little things slide.

#341
Lazy Jer

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
middle ground is giving mages freedom


That is not middle ground.


Depends on what you mean by "giving mages freedom".  Giving mages absolute freedom would not be middle ground, but reaching a middle ground does require giving mages more freedom then they already have.  What's more it's not a bad idea.  The circles are a valuable resource as centers of knowledge on magic as well as places of training to new mages who are coming into their power and may not know how to handle it on their own.

The problem is that no mage would ever want to go there.  No one is going to volunteer to be locked up in a tower and kept their for their entire life, unless there's a blight.  If the circles allowed mages to leave once they'd proven they were strong enough to resist possession, and if they were allowed contact with their families then mages wouldn't avoid it so much.  What's more if the mages had more actual say in how the place was run, and there were more checks and balances for when someone overstepped their bounds then the wouldn't be the same abuses of power that cause horror stories to come out of the circles that also drive people away.

#342
Lazy Jer

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errant_knight wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ok, I get it now... the pro mage thread, the templar thread and the middle ground all have exactly the same discussion.


It also shows up in threads the don't mention mages or Templars.


Lol. Is that funny or depressing?


I go with depressing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Funny on Mondays and Wednesdays.  But if I ever get a spirit in my head like Anders it'll be both at the same time.

#343
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages are a MINORITY, so 25 in 40 is completely skewered...


Fine...alright, let say 1/3 of children born EVERYDAY are Mages in all country/continent, count yourself how many Mages are there in the whole Thedas

If Chantry propaganda is true, 1/3 of the population who born 20 years ago are abominations in each country/continents in the whole Thedas

How many Templars are there, how many Chantry money to hire a Templar? A Templar officer may serve 40 years or so, Even government officers are recruited only in certain time making many peoples jobless because of economy...now think...children mage who born 20,19,18,17 years ago now have come to their power, the Templar officers are the same old Templar officers recruited 20 years ago

Modifié par Qistina, 27 octobre 2013 - 06:00 .


#344
schalafi

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What I don't understand is who set the Templars up as watchdogs for the Mages in the first place? Why wouldn't the Mages have the head of the circle be the watchdog keeping an eye out for any Mages who might be going astray, instead of having Templars monitoring them?

As for the Templars, I have never really seen any need for them other than watching the mages. Do we really need Templars at all?

Modifié par schalafi, 27 octobre 2013 - 06:20 .


#345
EmperorSahlertz

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1/3 is also completely skewered..... The majority of mages lived in 14 different Circles, each comprising of a few hundred mages each. Lets round up and just say that it is approximately 10.000 mages in the Circles. Then we have to add lets say another 10.000 mages in the form of Apostates (including the Dalish Keepers and Firsts) and Qunari Saarebas, and you have a grand total of 20.000 mages in existance. Now, I hope you can agree on the fact that there aren't only 60.000 living humans, Elves and Qunari on Thedas, so obviously 1/3 is also very very wrong. I'd wager that Thedas might be home to a few tens of millions of people. That makes mages even less common than 1 per 1000. Which is far more realistic given the entire situation.

#346
Hellion Rex

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

1/3 is also completely skewered..... The majority of mages lived in 14 different Circles, each comprising of a few hundred mages each. Lets round up and just say that it is approximately 10.000 mages in the Circles. Then we have to add lets say another 10.000 mages in the form of Apostates (including the Dalish Keepers and Firsts) and Qunari Saarebas, and you have a grand total of 20.000 mages in existance. Now, I hope you can agree on the fact that there aren't only 60.000 living humans, Elves and Qunari on Thedas, so obviously 1/3 is also very very wrong. I'd wager that Thedas might be home to a few tens of millions of people. That makes mages even less common than 1 per 1000. Which is far more realistic given the entire situation.

I would argue that even 1 in a 1000 is way too low man. 1/20 is maybe more accurate.  50/1000 seems to be more realistic.

Modifié par eluvianix, 27 octobre 2013 - 06:22 .


#347
MisterJB

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schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand is who set the Templars up as watchdogs for the Mages in the first place? Why wouldn't the Mages have the head of the circle be the watchdog keeping an eye out for any Mages who might be going astray, instead of having Templars monitoring them?

Because mages might not have the best interest of non-mages in mind and thus, can't be trusted to police themselves.

#348
schalafi

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MisterJB wrote...

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand is who set the Templars up as watchdogs for the Mages in the first place? Why wouldn't the Mages have the head of the circle be the watchdog keeping an eye out for any Mages who might be going astray, instead of having Templars monitoring them?

Because mages might not have the best interest of non-mages in mind and thus, can't be trusted to police themselves.


Yes but the way Templars are portrayed, very few of them have the best interest of Mages in mind anyway.

#349
CroGamer002

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schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand is who set the Templars up as watchdogs for the Mages in the first place? Why wouldn't the Mages have the head of the circle be the watchdog keeping an eye out for any Mages who might be going astray, instead of having Templars monitoring them?

As for the Templars, I have never really seen any need for them other than watching the mages. Do we really need Templars at all?


Two words.

Tevinter Imperium.

#350
schalafi

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Mesina2 wrote...

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand is who set the Templars up as watchdogs for the Mages in the first place? Why wouldn't the Mages have the head of the circle be the watchdog keeping an eye out for any Mages who might be going astray, instead of having Templars monitoring them?

As for the Templars, I have never really seen any need for them other than watching the mages. Do we really need Templars at all?


Two words.

Tevinter Imperium.


Could you elaborate a bit? I don't get what you're implying by that.