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Middle Ground?


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#426
Lotion Soronarr

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Star fury wrote...

What's your "middle ground" in the mage-templar conflict?


The Circles.
With some changes (the Seekers definately need to step up their game, Kirkwall should have never happened)

Given that one extreeme is free mages and the other is basicly mass tranqulity or what the quanri do, the Circle is the middle ground.
Alas, many pro mages see the middle ground as the something between free-mages and the middle-ground. Or do not see a middle ground at all.

****

Furthermore, the Circels are only a viable solution exactly because the mages are such a minority.
They would become impactical if mages were numerous. There is a limit to how much resources and population you can reasonably use in that end.

#427
CroGamer002

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HiroVoid wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

Okay, I have to say this. Regarding the mage to non-mage ratio, you know how many mages there are? As many as Bioware needs to be. It's not a real-world statistic, it's a game. The game, to my knowledge, never mentions how many mages are born out of how many non-mages, so trying to chart the actual statistic is just basically guess work and your guess is going to depend greatly on whether you support one side or the other and how that effects your argument.

You are actually more correct in determining story-wise is more important than trying to apply actual mathematics.  Of course, that's why I said it's impossible that the number could be one in three or anywhere close to that numerous.  Storywise, the mages must remain rare cases otherwise people wouldn't be that surprised at having a mage child and they must be a minority, so they can always play that angle.


Well I used other people's guesses with my own guesses to come up with the number.

It was definitely far from perfect and only reason I done is to show that mages even as minority still should have significant number for war, especially due to their magic.

Plus, it was kinda fun to come up with statistics for me.

#428
CroGamer002

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Qistina wrote...

In WW2, most prisoners of war are just killed sooner or later because of they draining resources, why want to feed the enemy? Concentration camps are just a place to interrogate, for fun (rape fest) and forced labor (to build rail roads and so on), after they are used the prisoners are usually killed


No, just no and no.

That's so much terrible history there.

While yes, Axis and Communist forces did that, however Allies with just few exception did not commit such war crimes and respected Geneva Convections.

And even before Geneve Convections, POW's in many Western countries had at least basic living necessities and later released in prisoner exchange or peace treaty.

So the Chantry pay heavy resource drainage to keep both Templars and Mages in the Circles...that is why they systematically kill apprentices in Harrowing and kill apostates whenever they meet them...they don't really want to capture apostates, they kill them...Circle Mages are mostly the ones who taken from childhood and so they can be brainwashed, the mature apostates like Hawke facing death if meet Templars on the road


What?!
Now that's a terrible lore there.

If Circle was systematically killing mages, then they're doing a pretty terrible job at it since most survive Harrowing and mage population doesn't show any decline( Cullen says there are more and more mages in Thedas, though statement should be taken with the grain of salt).

And apostate faith is mixed. It depends on the Templar assigned to hunt them down, as in willing to capture or kill on sight. As well as on apostate, depending how much danger does he/she shows.

For example, Anders escaped Circle several times and got caught most of the time. Actually all the time, just Darkspawn attack accidentally freed him from last capture. Not until his after last escape, they tried to kill him. And only because those Templar's were more interested in revenge, then it's duty.

Also in Kirkwall, there's an instance of a lot mages escaping the Gallows. Most got captured in their family homes quickly and send back to Gallows unharmed, as they offered no resistance to capture. Hell, they don't even harm a mage suspected of blood magic, though due to his idiocy was exposed to save his life from that stupid rumor he spread.

And that's Kirkwall Templar's with Meredith in charge. And she's the one that is systematically killing mages, waiting for an excuse to kill them all.
But she doesn't do them harm, because most of Kirkwall, many Templar's and the entire Chantry would oppose her in obvious and illegal actions. Only reason she managed to to got out of what she done, is by bending the rules just enough to seem correct or do it secretly so that accusations can be rejected as rumors and lies.

Oh and the proposed law to make every mage a Tranquil is outright rejected by the Divine herself.

In other words, what you're saying is nonsense.
Chantry is not only against, but also outright opposing on terminating mages. They know it's a very wrong and evil thing to do, so instead they make the Circle to keep everyone, including the mages, safe.
And everything was going mostly fine, until Kirkwall Templar's went completely nuts.

#429
EmperorSahlertz

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You can't use logic, established lore, or otherwise commonly known facts when arguing with Qstina...

#430
Midz

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Qistina wrote...

In WW2, most prisoners of war are just killed sooner or later because of they draining resources, why want to feed the enemy? Concentration camps are just a place to interrogate, for fun (rape fest) and forced labor (to build rail roads and so on), after they are used the prisoners are usually killed

So the Chantry pay heavy resource drainage to keep both Templars and Mages in the Circles...that is why they systematically kill apprentices in Harrowing and kill apostates whenever they meet them...they don't really want to capture apostates, they kill them...Circle Mages are mostly the ones who taken from childhood and so they can be brainwashed, the mature apostates like Hawke facing death if meet Templars on the road



   I do like  invented  History , invented  facts  and invented  numbers .....first they  give  amusement  then disbelief and  then  finally the realization  get popcorn  a train wreck  of an argument  is  coming .

#431
CroGamer002

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HiroVoid wrote...

RobRam10 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I suggest not forcing Mage's into the circle. But instead make a Circle education paramount for Mage's to succeed in Society . Thus keeping the Circle intact without making anyone absolutely have to go, just make it extremely difficult if they dont. Mage's must learn to master themselves, The Circle is still good for that.

Mages must learn to dominate the weak and rule the non-mages.

Not a bad idea, but I'd say mages are too out-numbered at the moment for it to be a feasible plan.  They must go into hiding and start a breeding plan.  Mages only mate with other mages to increase the likelihood of mage kids.  Then, after the concentrated population of mages has been in hiding for a few generations, they come out with their bolstered new numbers.  It's the ultimate conclusion of the isolationist's plans.


Pretty sure mages are outnumbered in Tevinter Imperium. Both by slaves and non-slaves.
However, their magic makes those numbers not significant enough to successfully take them down.
Though some there still try.

#432
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Mesina2 wrote...
While yes, Axis and Communist forces did that, however Allies with just few exception did not commit such war crimes and respected Geneva Convections.


Yeah...right...there are many political "criminal" being caught under British Insurgency Act, being denied to defend themselves...they are today anonymous, forgotten.....

Mesina2 wrote...
For example, Anders escaped Circle several times and got caught most of the time. Actually all the time, just Darkspawn attack accidentally freed him from last capture. Not until his after last escape, they tried to kill him. And only because those Templar's were more interested in revenge, then it's duty.

Also in Kirkwall, there's an instance of a lot mages escaping the Gallows. Most got captured in their family homes quickly and send back to Gallows unharmed, as they offered no resistance to capture. Hell, they don't even harm a mage suspected of blood magic, though due to his idiocy was exposed to save his life from that stupid rumor he spread.


Those Mages are from the Circle, they only gathering back their lost cattle...the Starkhaven case, only Trask want to capture them alive, and he's alone, the rest are hunter killer...if Hawke is not there, those runaways are killed

Chantry is not only against, but also outright opposing on terminating mages. They know it's a very wrong and evil thing to do, so instead they make the Circle to keep everyone, including the mages, safe.


If the Mages serve their purpose...they still have interests on Mages, they only keep a few good breed...

#433
LOLandStuff

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I wonder what a "good breed" mage is. Are they recognized?

#434
CroGamer002

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Thedas's inspiration from medieval europe is fairly obvious. So its population numbers are as good as any to use as a basic guess.


Inspired by =/= same as.

Europs population numbers were product of it's size and conditions.
Thedas population numbers will be a product of it's size and conditions.

What is the Size of Thedas compared ot Europe anyway? There was a map, it has a scale...someone check.


Well my numbers are not suppose to be 100% factual numbers.

Hell, what I tried to do was not to attempt to guess Thedas population, just statistical possibility on how many human mages and Templar's are there.

I just used European Late Medieval population for simplicity sake. Plus, 20 million is a nice rounded number and makes math easier.

#435
CroGamer002

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Reznore57 wrote...

I don't think there is any public school system in Thedas.
Nobility probably gets educated , mages also are via the circle , and Chantry folks , they do have scholars.

If i remember correctly in Asunder , Rhys and co are surprised to found out very simple dwarven runes are used on some sign.
Evangeline replied something like most people do not learn to read.

It's a bit strange that all our companions are educated but they also all have very specific background.
Anyway I guess it's just that sometimes the devs do not follow the lore by the letter because it can be quite inconveniant story/gameplay wise.


Pretty much. It would be very inconvenient to the player, if your character can't do basic thing like reading.

But it is still plausible for the poor and unlanded to learn reading, but it's very rare and depends on certain circumstances and individual.

#436
Star fury

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Mesina2 wrote...
No, just no and no.

That's so much terrible history there.

While yes, Axis and Communist forces did that, however Allies with just few exception did not commit such war crimes and respected Geneva Convections.


Do you have examples when Communist forces systematically killed POWs?


http://en.wikipedia...._1945-04-29.jpg

#437
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LOLandStuff wrote...
I wonder what a "good breed" mage is. Are they recognized?


The Mages that are fully brainwashed and can be use as the tool of the Chantry

#438
CroGamer002

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Qistina wrote...

Yeah...right...there are many political "criminal" being caught under British Insurgency Act, being denied to defend themselves...they are today anonymous, forgotten.....


That facist law is nothing compared to what you're trying to describe.

Those Mages are from the Circle, they only gathering back their lost cattle...the Starkhaven case, only Trask want to capture them alive, and he's alone, the rest are hunter killer...if Hawke is not there, those runaways are killed


Like I said, it depends on the Templar and on Apostate possible danger.

In this case with had Trask who was not a nutcase like those few other Templar's that showed later, while mages in that cave were using blood magic and some decided to fight Hawke til death without attempting to negotiate.

Heck, we had good Templar, nutcase Templar, good mages and nutcase mages in same mission.

Oh and BTW, those mages don't get killed. They all get captured, whatever you make them surrender or help them escape.

If the Mages serve their purpose...they still have interests on Mages, they only keep a few good breed...


Excuse me, but they don't treat them as cattle and make selective breeds.

Hell, slavers don't do that to their slaves either. And they often treat them as cattle, but never makes them to select with who to breed.

#439
LOLandStuff

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So they brainwash mages and then make them breed and the result is a more brainwashed mage?
I lol.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:20 .


#440
CroGamer002

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Star fury wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
No, just no and no.

That's so much terrible history there.

While yes, Axis and Communist forces did that, however Allies with just few exception did not commit such war crimes and respected Geneva Convections.


Do you have examples when Communist forces systematically killed POWs?


http://en.wikipedia...._1945-04-29.jpg


I didn't said Allies didn't commit war crimes, but were as a whole exception in WW2.

Also, here you can start on Soviets:
http://en.wikipedia....es#World_War_II

Also the biggest one from Communist Yugoslav Partisans:
http://en.wikipedia....#The_march_back

#441
Star fury

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Mesina2 wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
No, just no and no.

That's so much terrible history there.

While yes, Axis and Communist forces did that, however Allies with just few exception did not commit such war crimes and respected Geneva Convections.


Do you have examples when Communist forces systematically killed POWs?


http://en.wikipedia...._1945-04-29.jpg


I didn't said Allies didn't commit war crimes, but were as a whole exception in WW2.

Also, here you can start on Soviets:
http://en.wikipedia....es#World_War_II

Also the biggest one from Communist Yugoslav Partisans:
http://en.wikipedia....#The_march_back


I asked serious arguments, not wikipedia garbage dammit! 

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#442
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Mesina2 wrote...
That facist law is nothing compared to what you're trying to describe.


I am not trying to describe anything, just trying to show that Allied is not "good" and Axis is not "bad", trying to show that peoples are eating too much propaganda

In this case with had Trask who was not a nutcase like those few other Templar's that showed later, while mages in that cave were using blood magic and some decided to fight Hawke til death without attempting to negotiate.


That rise a question, where did they learn Blood Magic? The same question of "where Jowan learn Blood Magic?". They are Circle Mages, they learn Blood Magic in the Circle.

As for those Circle Mages from Starkhaven, they know they will only facing death, that is why they just kill anyone who enter assume anyone who enter must be working with the Templars. The reason Trask asking Hawke to help, is hoping if Hawke can persuade them. Trask himself say those Mages will be dead, cannot survive outside the Circle

Excuse me, but they don't treat them as cattle and make selective breeds.


The Circle is a place of religious indoctrination, they won't allow any views or movements that against their religious doctrine. So Circle Mages are cattle, they are shaped to become like that. They only serve the Chantry purpose

That is why i said those who want the Circle to exist do not see how religious bias it is

Modifié par Qistina, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:28 .


#443
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To add

The whole Starkhaven thing is a total mess by the devs, the quest have fallacies

i. there is only one way in and one way out, so how come Hawke can lie "the rest have escape..." at the entrance that is also the exit, surely it is not a good lie
ii. Varric can lie on behalf of Hawke, no matter what, it is unbelievable..."Hawke is the First Enchanter" while wearing "Apostate Robe" lol...Hawke is Templar from somewhere while wearing "Red Iron Mercenary" armor.
iii. How come Trask being there before the rest of the Templars and the time length between Hawke arrive there before the rest of the Templars is impossible

#444
CroGamer002

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@Star fury

Hey, you send me wikiepdia link too.

Besides, we're already dwelling too fart off-topic and possibly going against one of BSN rules.
So you're not getting talk on that from me in this thread nor forum, cause I don't want to get banned.

@Qistina

Equalizing Axis and Allies war crimes is one the worst and most common history revisionism. But already dwelwed too much off topic on that and I'll stop arguing on those points you make and ignore.


Now on topic.
According to Dragon Age Wikipedia, blood magic is the very first form of magic. So it's very plausible mages can rediscover blood magic on their own or learn it from some forgotten books or from demons.

Also, do check on Fraternities of Enchanters and you'll see how mages are "indoctrinated".

#445
LOLandStuff

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@Qistina, it was all an illusion.

#446
Star fury

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Mesina2 wrote...

Hey, you send me wikiepdia link too.

I send you a photo!

Mesina2 wrote...

Equalizing Axis and Allies war crimes is one the worst and most common history revisionism. But already dwelwed too much off topic on that and I'll stop arguing on those points you make and ignore.

 

Then don't equalize Axis and Allies war crimes! You're doing exactly that.

#447
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Mesina2 wrote...
According to Dragon Age Wikipedia, blood magic is the very first form of magic. So it's very plausible mages can rediscover blood magic on their own or learn it from some forgotten books or from demons.


According to Mage Origin, one section of books emptied out by the First Enchanter, books of Blood Magic are in the First Enchanter room. Irving remove them as advised by Gregoir because there are suspect of apprentices learning Blood Magic from it, it is Jowan and the rest of Blood Mages you encounter in Broken Circle

Actually...it is a poor execution by the devs...but we can assume circle Mages do learn about Blood Magic theory, not practical

Also, do check on Fraternities of Enchanters and you'll see how mages are "indoctrinated".


Those fraternity exist in a controlled condition, in anyway, they cannot against the Chantry

#448
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to add another...

The whole Broken Circle quest is also a mess by the devs, but it's forgiven

i. Blood Magic is frown upon by the Chantry, but in Mage origin, there are books on Blood Magic and it have it's own section in the library, everyone are open to read it until it is removed by Irving
ii. Jowan is about to be executed because of practicing Blood Magic, and only Jowan, but there are a lot of Blood Mages in the Circle including the senior Enchanter
iii. Lithany of Andralla is a quest item, said to be the way to against Blood Mage domination, yeah...it being locked away in store room...lol
iv. Waynne know about Lithany of Andralla, but she don't know the spell, but she said "every mages should know how to recite it", then she got mind controlled in 3rd floor because she don't know the spell...

It is just because concept vs story, the devs want to show "Blood Mage" = evil so the enemies in the Broken Circle must be Blood Mages while it contradict the whole premise

And from where did the a Blood Mage wearing Tevinter Archon Robe come from in 3rd floor?

Modifié par Qistina, 28 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .


#449
CroGamer002

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@Star fury

I said that to Quistina, not you.

Qistina wrote...

According to Mage Origin, one section of books emptied out by the First Enchanter, books of Blood Magic are in the First Enchanter room. Irving remove them as advised by Gregoir because there are suspect of apprentices learning Blood Magic from it, it is Jowan and the rest of Blood Mages you encounter in Broken Circle

Actually...it is a poor execution by the devs...but we can assume circle Mages do learn about Blood Magic theory, not practical


Yeah, I forgot about that plausibility.

So yeah, mages probably learn about Blood Magic theory.
Perhaps to avoid using it by accident and maybe to do recreate some positive aspects of blood magic but with use of ordinary magic.

Those fraternity exist in a controlled condition, in anyway, they cannot against the Chantry


But they're still not indoctrinated and are allowed to speak their opinion and criticize Templar's and the Chantry.

#450
Jaison1986

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For what I understand, blood magic in itself, is actually just another spell, were mage sacrifile life force instead of mana. The problem is that mages usually can't learn it on their own, and they need to strike deals with demons in order to unlock such powers.