810 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

wcholcombe wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other. 

I don't agree in the idea of a compromise, because history has shown that compromise simply meant capitulation to a religious organization with abhorrent ideologies and practices towards mages. The restoration of the status quo, or any compromise with the templars and the Chantry, holds no interest to me.

Yes because in the previous time of the rise of the Inquisition, the abominations and mages running around on their own during the blight was working out so well for everyone.

You do realize, that prior to that the mages were using elves and humans as living batteries for blood magic just because they were merely human or elf and couldn't do anything about it.  Yeah, things were so much better when Magisters were sacrificing 1000 elves just for their jollies.

"The mages" were doing that?  No, specific mages from the Tevinter Imperium were doing that.  It's disingenuous to claim that Magisters = all mages everywhere, in all times and places.

Unfortunately some people around here seem to think all mages think the same.

Yes and you think all templars think the same.  Welcome to the club.

Please point out to me where I've said all templars are the same?

[cjones91]

wcholcombe wrote...

Hey just painting with the same broad brush as everyone else.

And no the mages running around as abominations weren't magisters. The Inquisition came into being in response to the wanton destruction of mages.

Wrong!The Inquisition came into being to stop the chaos that raged throughout Thedas at the time.They targeted everyone from mages to cultists and anyone in between.

[Medhia Nox]

Don't some people act like all Dalish want a homeland?

Don't some people act like all mages want freedom from the Circle?

And don't those same people accuse other people of wrong thinking when they point out that perhaps "not all people of the same group act the same"?

Methinks there's hypocrisy lurking in this thread.

[Jorji Costava]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Don't some people act like all Dalish want a homeland?

Don't some people act like all mages want freedom from the Circle?

And don't those same people accuse other people of wrong thinking when they point out that perhaps "not all people of the same group act the same"?

Methinks there's hypocrisy lurking in this thread.

Maybe the assumption is that freedom for oppressed groups is intrinsically desirable, regardless of whether or not everyone in the group in question wants that freedom. In the early twentieth century, significant opposition to women's suffrage came from, ironically enough, women. But that hardly gives us reason to doubt that women's suffrage was desirable. Similarly, you might think that even if many mages are perfectly comfortable in the circle, it's still of value to provide more complete freedom for mages, including the very mages who are most opposed to it.

[wcholcombe]

World of Thedas- The inquisition was a group of hardliners who banned together to stop the destruction caused by mages and abominations.

And no I don't think all mages are evil. Just like I don't think all templars are evil rapists. I was making a point about absolute attitudes.

Again I am all for middle ground.

[cjones91]

wcholcombe wrote...

World of Thedas- The inquisition was a group of hardliners who banned together to stop the destruction caused by mages and abominations.

And no I don't think all mages are evil. Just like I don't think all templars are evil rapists. I was making a point about absolute attitudes.

Again I am all for middle ground.

The Inquisition did'nt just go after mages and abominations though,they went after anyone who was causing mayhem and even protected mages from danger.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

World of Thedas- The inquisition was a group of hardliners who banned together to stop the destruction caused by mages and abominations.

And no I don't think all mages are evil. Just like I don't think all templars are evil rapists. I was making a point about absolute attitudes.

Again I am all for middle ground.

The Inquisition did'nt just go after mages and abominations though,they went after anyone who was causing mayhem and even protected mages from danger.

Basically they were originally formed to stop blood mages and abominations but they ended up taking down anyone who they perceived as a threat, regardless if they were a mage or not.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 octobre 2013 - 02:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Don't some people act like all Dalish want a homeland?

The premise behind the Dalish is to have a new homeland, restore their culture, and teach their city brethren about their culture. People point out its safe to assume some of the People would want to have their own kingdom again.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Don't some people act like all mages want freedom from the Circle?

People point out that a sufficient number of mages wanted autonomy to have all the Circles of Magi seperate from the Chantry of Andraste.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And don't those same people accuse other people of wrong thinking when they point out that perhaps "not all people of the same group act the same"?

Methinks there's hypocrisy lurking in this thread. 

Finding the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste morally repugnant isn't quite the same thing.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm honestly inclined to agree with Anders on one thing; there is no compromise here. The only way to get opposed extremist to compromise is by having a third party who has a vested interesting stopping their conflict but otherwise gives absolutely zero f*cks about the issue that has divided them beat them both into submission and force them into an arrangement that neither one would be satisfied with, but is never the less best for everyone else.

[Boycott Bioware]

There is no middle ground

Peace talk don't achieve anything, it is all hypocrisy, what peace talk when it only favor the oppressors?

[Chaos Hammer]

Qistina wrote...

There is no middle ground

Peace talk don't achieve anything, it is all hypocrisy, what peace talk when it only favor the oppressors?

Peace is not appeasement, but its also not terrorism, tyranny, nor total war. Peace is accepting that you are not going to get exactly what you want. It's being an adult and seeing the other side has some truth, and valuable ideas.

Hard lining loses its effect when you use it every time.... There are very few absolutes in this or any world, and this is definitely not one.

[Boycott Bioware]

Chaos Hammer wrote...
Peace is not appeasement, but its also not terrorism, tyranny, nor total war. Peace is accepting that you are not going to get exactly what you want. It's being an adult and seeing the other side has some truth, and valuable ideas.

Hard lining loses its effect when you use it every time.... There are very few absolutes in this or any world, and this is definitely not one.

Peace is absolute, chaos is absolute, it is only which is stronger. There is no middle ground

How can you/we/us allow oppression in the name of peace?

The truth is always at the hand of the oppressed, the oppressor never hold the truth

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...
Peace is not appeasement, but its also not terrorism, tyranny, nor total war. Peace is accepting that you are not going to get exactly what you want. It's being an adult and seeing the other side has some truth, and valuable ideas.

Hard lining loses its effect when you use it every time.... There are very few absolutes in this or any world, and this is definitely not one.

Peace is absolute, chaos is absolute, it is only which is stronger. There is no middle ground

How can you/we/us allow oppression in the name of peace?

The truth is always at the hand of the oppressed, the oppressor never hold the truth

This sounds like anarchy.

[MissCurlsbel]

Just my opinion and for whatever it is worth, I believe something ala Harry Potter style should be put into place.

A school that teaches all mages to control their power in a safer environment than learning by yourself, with a criminal system in place for those who dare play with the forbidden arts.

Templars get to keep their jobs as the Magic Police and Mages get their freedom while being taught.

Based on the knowledge I have from only playing the games, this is the conclusion I draw at least.

[Boycott Bioware]

The Hierophant wrote...
This sounds like anarchy.

It's certainty

We against oppressors, no matter how the oppressors look like...we defend the oppressed, no matter how the oppressed look like

Throw away the sentiment...that is what blind us, and that what make they can control us.

To achieve peace, is by wash away all sentiments, when there is no sentiment, there is nothing that lead to oppression and chaos. Sentiment is build by propaganda

Things to throw away
-religious sentiment
-racial sentiment
-political sentiment
-ideological sentiment

Can we achieve that?

No

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
This sounds like anarchy.

It's certainty

We against oppressors, no matter how the oppressors look like...we defend the oppressed, no matter how the oppressed look like

Throw away the sentiment...that is what blind us, and that what make they can control us.

To achieve peace, is by wash away all sentiments, when there is no sentiment, there is nothing that lead to oppression and chaos. Sentiment is build by propaganda

Things to throw away
-religious sentiment
-racial sentiment
-political sentiment
-ideological sentiment

Can we achieve that?

No

hmm?

[Boycott Bioware]

Propaganda work because society is ignorant and arrogant. That is another factor. The society don't want to learn and never care. The society only care to eat, to feed, to breed, and seeking own way out, seeking for self salvation. The society only complaint if their supplies cut off, if their food taken, if their so called liberty and privacy disturbed

The society is selfish

Who cares if other peoples oppressed, lack of food, facing diseases, facing invasion and live in poverty. Who cares other people sons and daughters being taken away, dead in battle, dead being killed by soldiers, killed by mad men...so long it is not their sons and daughters

The society is blind because they only look with one eye...a bias view, they don't see the other side the story, don't see the other part of the picture, don't see what they don't want to see, only see what they want to see, only seeing through one eye

There will always be struggles, that is the world...and we are striving. We live to strive...that's Jihad...to strive

There is no middle ground between the truth and falsehood, there is no middle ground between oppressors and the oppressed, there is no middle ground between good and evil...we strive until there is no falsehood, oppression and evil anymore....

Modifié par Qistina, 22 octobre 2013 - 05:21 .

[Star fury]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages in societies that aren't controlled by templars, and those societies didn't fall to abominations. I don't but into the idea that an anti-mage religious organization is necessary for the safety of Thedas.

Exactly. Dalish elves don't need templars to police mages. Even human apostate mages are often fine without Chantry and templars.   

[Dayze]

Wouldn't a middle ground for the Templars and Mages be if the mages decided to use all their powers and abilities to try and control/negate/corral other mages?

I suspect they would be better at it than the Templars anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Star fury wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages in societies that aren't controlled by templars, and those societies didn't fall to abominations. I don't but into the idea that an anti-mage religious organization is necessary for the safety of Thedas.

Exactly. Dalish elves don't need templars to police mages. Even human apostate mages are often fine without Chantry and templars.   

Dalish? You mean those pathetic clans that barely hang on, get destroyed by their own Keepers and abominations?
Yeah. Dalish are doing GREAT. Suuuuuuuuurre.

Chasind? You mean those primitive traibes with no real geopoliticla power?


Try again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
This sounds like anarchy.

It's certainty

We against oppressors, no matter how the oppressors look like...we defend the oppressed, no matter how the oppressed look like

Throw away the sentiment...that is what blind us, and that what make they can control us.

To achieve peace, is by wash away all sentiments, when there is no sentiment, there is nothing that lead to oppression and chaos. Sentiment is build by propaganda

Things to throw away
-religious sentiment
-racial sentiment
-political sentiment
-ideological sentiment

Can we achieve that?

No

Yes We Can!

Mass tranquility.

Actually no.
That will still leave ideological sentiment and personal interests. Drat.

[Cainhurst Crow]

We middle grounders have it the most rough. Devoted to neither, seen as traitors by both. We are forever rejected, forever persecuted for not sharing either opinion, and forging our own.

Thus is our struggle. Thus is our fate.

[Fredward]

The Circle system is not middle ground. This is middle ground: mages go to live in a Circle as soon as their magical potential is discovered, they stay there learning about magic from other mages until they're old enough to go through the Harrowing, if they pass they get to leave and live free lives, if they fail they die, that goes without saying. Tranquility is strictly to be used when asked for and only when the consequences have been made abundantly clear. The profit from selling Tranquil-wares goes to the mage run Circles to improve them as places of learning and to further the study of magic, definitely not going into Chantry coffers any more. The Chantry's monopoly on the lyrium trade would obviously need to be broken first. This system would keep phylacteries of all mages that went through there in case of any evil magic use or abominatiohood. The templars would have to be completely disbanded replaced by a group of mages that track runaways, find young mages and hunt abominations and those that really just want to wreak havoc.

[Star fury]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Star fury wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are free mages in societies that aren't controlled by templars, and those societies didn't fall to abominations. I don't but into the idea that an anti-mage religious organization is necessary for the safety of Thedas.

Exactly. Dalish elves don't need templars to police mages. Even human apostate mages are often fine without Chantry and templars.   

Dalish? You mean those pathetic clans that barely hang on, get destroyed by their own Keepers and abominations?
Yeah. Dalish are doing GREAT. Suuuuuuuuurre.

Chasind? You mean those primitive traibes with no real geopoliticla power?


Try again.

"Try again" what? I'm not going to refute your headcanon.

[Squire]

Chaos Hammer wrote...
WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

Because that doesn't happen now, in the real world, and humankind has been around for a few thousand years.

Bioware were trying to create a gritty, realistic pseudo-medieval society, where things like irrational hatreds and superstitions were common, and it was perfectly acceptable (and sometimes even encouraged!) to despise someone because they had the audacity to have a different religion, or culture, to yourself.

Not saying that these things are good (they're not, obviously), but to create a pseudo-medieval world, you kind of have to have the prejudices that medieval people would have had. Unrealistically modern sociological developments would, in my eyes, destroy the believability of any pseudo-medieval world. It works for sci-fi, where we can advance the date by enough time to make that believable, but not in dark fantasy.

I suppose my answer, in a nutshell, is "because haters gonna hate".