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[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages' vote started the war, so technically the mages started it.

Mages vote, templars murder.

Wasn't the mage vote rigged by Adrian murdering Pharamond and blaming it on one of the other mages?

No, on several levels. First, Pharamond outright begged for death. Second, the templars used it as an excuse to arrest Rhys, but that wasn't being used to change votes.

It's still techically murder, and according the wiki Adrian did it to force Wynne to abandon her position of chantry support, because she would be able to convince the mages not to rebel. 

Even if that wasn't murder, Adrian framing Rhys for murder in a soceity with capital punishment was basically sentencing him to death anyway.

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:04 .

[Xilizhra]

It's still techically murder, and according the wiki Adrian did it to foce Wynne to abandon her position of chantry support, because she would be able to convince the mages not to rebel.

Wynne gets killed, so it doesn't affect the vote regardless.

And even if that wasn't murder, Adrian framing Rhys for murder in a soceity with capital punishment was basically sentencing him to death anyway.

If you want, but that's not a valid reason to unilaterally blame mages as a whole.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's still techically murder, and according the wiki Adrian did it to foce Wynne to abandon her position of chantry support, because she would be able to convince the mages not to rebel.

Wynne gets killed, so it doesn't affect the vote regardless.

And even if that wasn't murder, Adrian framing Rhys for murder in a soceity with capital punishment was basically sentencing him to death anyway.

If you want, but that's not a valid reason to unilaterally blame mages as a whole.

I'm just challenging your "templars murder, mages vote" claim. It's more like "Templars murder, mages murder/have other sentenced to death in order to sway vote". 

[wcholcombe]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The mages' vote started the war, so technically the mages started it.

Mages vote, templars murder.

Wasn't the mage vote rigged by Adrian murdering Pharamond and blaming it on one of the other mages?

No, on several levels. First, Pharamond outright begged for death. Second, the templars used it as an excuse to arrest Rhys, but that wasn't being used to change votes.

Yes and the mages revolted because of Pharamond's murder resulting in Rhys being charged with a crime and the Templar's trying to arrest him.  Adrian manipulated the mages and the Templars.

Also, the mages weren't even there to vote for independence or not.  They were there to investigate the findings of reversing tranquility.  Most of the events would have never occurred if Adrian hadn't murdered Pharamond.   

[Xilizhra]

I'm just challenging your "templars murder, mages vote" claim. It's more like "Templars murder, mages murder/have other sentenced to death in order to sway vote".

That's one mage. All of the templars who've left the Chantry and all following Lambert's orders were actively participating in violence.

Yes and the mages revolted because of Pharamond's murder resulting in Rhys being charged with a crime and the Templar's trying to arrest him. Adrian manipulated the mages and the Templars.

Lambert was going to attack the meeting at some point anyway, was he not?

Also, the mages weren't even there to vote for independence or not. They were there to investigate the findings of reversing tranquility. Most of the events would have never occurred if Adrian hadn't murdered Pharamond.

They would have, just later and worse. This had to happen.

[Ianamus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm just challenging your "templars murder, mages vote" claim. It's more like "Templars murder, mages murder/have other sentenced to death in order to sway vote".

That's one mage. All of the templars who've left the Chantry and all following Lambert's orders were actively participating in violence.

I know, I was just pointing out that circle mages as a group aren't all saints who are completely without fault. Just like some Templars, like Evangeline, are not murdering scumbags. 

Modifié par EJ107, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm just challenging your "templars murder, mages vote" claim. It's more like "Templars murder, mages murder/have other sentenced to death in order to sway vote".

That's one mage. All of the templars who've left the Chantry and all following Lambert's orders were actively participating in violence.

I know, I was just pointing out that circle mages as a group aren't all saints who are completely without fault. Just like some Templars, like Evangeline, are not murdering scumbags. 

Indeed. And Evangeline proved herself not being a murdering scumbag quite nicely. Far, far better than Cullen or anyone else in Kirkwall.

[Allan Schumacher]

Keep in mind that the templars left with the Chantry priests before all the villagers did, such as Hawke.

Keep in mind that you're hearing character recounts and talks (and all the inaccuracies that can come with that).

[Xilizhra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Keep in mind that the templars left with the Chantry priests before all the villagers did, such as Hawke.

Keep in mind that you're hearing character recounts and talks (and all the inaccuracies that can come with that).

I'm uncertain what would motivate Hawke to misrepresent something that happened in Lothering in a question where she seeks to uncover information about why this templar is here. And I find it unlikely that she could simply have overlooked templars staying behind, as they're quite visible, especially if they're being defensive and watchful.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm uncertain what would motivate Hawke to misrepresent something that happened in Lothering in a question where she seeks to uncover information about why this templar is here. And I find it unlikely that she could simply have overlooked templars staying behind, as they're quite visible, especially if they're being defensive and watchful.

When did Hawke leave relative to the Templars? Further, was Hawke visible enough for the Templars to still even know the Hawke family was still there?

Was Hawke the outlier?

[Xilizhra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm uncertain what would motivate Hawke to misrepresent something that happened in Lothering in a question where she seeks to uncover information about why this templar is here. And I find it unlikely that she could simply have overlooked templars staying behind, as they're quite visible, especially if they're being defensive and watchful.

When did Hawke leave relative to the Templars? Further, was Hawke visible enough for the Templars to still even know the Hawke family was still there?

Was Hawke the outlier?

What we know is that Hawke, while perhaps one of the last ones to leave, was not one of the last ones remaining in the village when it was attacked; Varric mentions that "many innocents were slaughtered," and characters in DAO speak of how not everyone made it out in time.

[Wulfram]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When did Hawke leave relative to the Templars? Further, was Hawke visible enough for the Templars to still even know the Hawke family was still there?

Was Hawke the outlier?

Well, the game starts with Bethany saying they waited too long.  because they were waiting for Carver/Carver+Hawke

[errant_knight]

edit: oops misread, nevermind

Modifié par errant_knight, 28 octobre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Xilizhra]

errant_knight wrote...

Bethany was busy fleeing for her life. She doesn't necessarily know all there is to know. She only knows what she believes to be the case.

I'm pretty sure "waited too long" isn't in much dispute, given how they're only a few feet away from the encroaching darkspawn at the beginning.

[errant_knight]

wow, that was fast, only had that posted for 20 seconds before I realized I'd misread, lol

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm uncertain what would motivate Hawke to misrepresent something that happened in Lothering in a question where she seeks to uncover information about why this templar is here. And I find it unlikely that she could simply have overlooked templars staying behind, as they're quite visible, especially if they're being defensive and watchful.

When did Hawke leave relative to the Templars? Further, was Hawke visible enough for the Templars to still even know the Hawke family was still there?

Was Hawke the outlier?

What we know is that Hawke, while perhaps one of the last ones to leave, was not one of the last ones remaining in the village when it was attacked; Varric mentions that "many innocents were slaughtered," and characters in DAO speak of how not everyone made it out in time.

And this somehow means that the Templars DIDN'T attempt to hold off the Darkspawn?! You of course know what a rear guard is, right? You know, the ones who knowingly sacrifice their own lives so that others might escape. This sacrifice does in no way guarentee the safety of the ones they try to protect, sometimes rearguards goes horribly wrong. The Templars were only a handful, they would have no hope of holding back the Darkspawn for long, but they did so anyway. Perhaps no one would have escaped Lothering at all had they not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
We did not start the war. You did.

Who is the "we" here?
Xil, you identifiying with the mages to that exstent is troubling.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
We did not start the war. You did.

Who is the "we" here?
Xil, you identifiying with the mages to that exstent is troubling.

We'll see what is troubling when I burn your eyes with my witchfire TEMPLAR.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...
Can I just say, and I am sorry if it offends, Qistina, I have almost never seen a thread where people do not find your statements.... obtuse and or wrong.

While I generally don't agree with most of your ideas, I just found the lack of supporters odd since BSN has a tendency for being contrary for contrast's sake

I always be like this in my life...i am used to it....

You are used to being so wrong that even most fanatics wont' side with you?

Uumm....congratulations..I guess?

Xil wrote...

That's one mage. All of the templars who've left the Chantry and all following Lambert's orders were actively participating in violence.

Nope. They were actively apprehending CRIMINALS that BROKE THE LAW.

Lambert was going to attack the meeting at some point anyway, was he not?

Nope. He ordered everyone disperse because of illegal activity, then the mages went apes**** insane.

They would have, just later and worse. This had to happen.

And mages being confined to Circles had to happen anyway and will happen agian. Why fight the inevitable?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 octobre 2013 - 09:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And this somehow means that the Templars DIDN'T attempt to hold off the Darkspawn?! You of course know what a rear guard is, right? You know, the ones who knowingly sacrifice their own lives so that others might escape. This sacrifice does in no way guarentee the safety of the ones they try to protect, sometimes rearguards goes horribly wrong. The Templars were only a handful, they would have no hope of holding back the Darkspawn for long, but they did so anyway. Perhaps no one would have escaped Lothering at all had they not.

But Emepror, templars can do no right.
They only exist to torment and rape mages, don't you know that?

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And this somehow means that the Templars DIDN'T attempt to hold off the Darkspawn?! You of course know what a rear guard is, right? You know, the ones who knowingly sacrifice their own lives so that others might escape. This sacrifice does in no way guarentee the safety of the ones they try to protect, sometimes rearguards goes horribly wrong. The Templars were only a handful, they would have no hope of holding back the Darkspawn for long, but they did so anyway. Perhaps no one would have escaped Lothering at all had they not.

But Emepror, templars can do no right.
They only exist to torment and rape mages, don't you know that?

That would be the extremist ones,the rest are good people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And this somehow means that the Templars DIDN'T attempt to hold off the Darkspawn?! You of course know what a rear guard is, right? You know, the ones who knowingly sacrifice their own lives so that others might escape. This sacrifice does in no way guarentee the safety of the ones they try to protect, sometimes rearguards goes horribly wrong. The Templars were only a handful, they would have no hope of holding back the Darkspawn for long, but they did so anyway. Perhaps no one would have escaped Lothering at all had they not.

But Emepror, templars can do no right.
They only exist to torment and rape mages, don't you know that?

Oh yes, how silly of me to forget. All hail the mage overlords!

[Lazy Jer]

Folks, we really don't know what happened in Lothering when the darkspawn decided to make it their summer home. DA:O only shows Lothering pre-sacking and DA2 only shows the Hawke family running away from it. So we really don't know what went down. Maybe the Templars fought them, maybe the took off and left the villagers to their own devices. For all we know they challenged the Darkspawn to a pie-eating contest (which the darkspawn would loose because they'd be disqualified for trying to eat the judges).

So how is Lothering a convincing argument either way when it's all basically guesswork?

[CroGamer002]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
We did not start the war. You did.

Who is the "we" here?
Xil, you identifiying with the mages to that exstent is troubling.

Pretty sure war was started due to very complicated and many reasons, to which Anders caused a spark to ignite.
It would have exploded to war, no matter what.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mesina2 wrote...
It would have exploded to war, no matter what.

"It would have happened anyway".
"Someone else would have done if I didn't"
Bad excuses.

You don't know. You CAN'T know. Without Fiona, the lyrium idol and Anders things might have calmed down.