810 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
It would have exploded to war, no matter what.

"It would have happened anyway".
"Someone else would have done if I didn't"
Bad excuses.

You don't know. You CAN'T know. Without Fiona, the lyrium idol and Anders things might have calmed down.

Key word is might. We can deal in what ifs all day long. But Fiona did happen. Anders did happen. And the lyrium idol was recovered. And now we are left with a situation made of a combination of Anders, Fiona, and the idol.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

One of the reasons that I hated what Anders did was that I DON'T think it would have happened anyway. In the right circumstances, I think Kirkwall was fixable. Which I think Anders himself recognized and ensured that it couldn't be.

[CroGamer002]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
It would have exploded to war, no matter what.

"It would have happened anyway".
"Someone else would have done if I didn't"
Bad excuses.

You don't know. You CAN'T know. Without Fiona, the lyrium idol and Anders things might have calmed down.

With Meredith, I don't think the idol made much difference. Perhaps it had just speed up process.

And there's quite a lot of layer problems needed to be removed, to avoid the war.

Though question to reform the Circle and the Templar's would have always stay. Though, it probably would have been resolved in peaceful matter, if it wasn't for those damn pesky complicated issues.


But all I'm saying if it wasn't for Anders, something else would spark the war. Just later and differently. It might have been another mage or a Templar or some 3rd party for whatever reason.

Modifié par Mesina2, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:56 .

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

One of the reasons that I hated what Anders did was that I DON'T think it would have happened anyway. In the right circumstances, I think Kirkwall was fixable. Which I think Anders himself recognized and ensured that it couldn't be.

Perhaps Kirkwall could have been "fixed". However, it is far too late for that. And if not in Kirkwall, it was bound to happen somewhere else in the world.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The situation in Kirkwall is unique to the circumstances in Kirkwall. It couldn't have happened anywhere else. The Templars don't have such a powerful political presence anywhere else.
Nor does Kirkwall have the same combination of overzealous Knight-Commander, terrorist abominations, madness inducing lyrium idols, criminally negligent First Enchanters and assassinated ruler as anywhere else.

[Plaintiff]

It doesn't matter if Kirkwall was "fixable", the Circle system is, at base, unforgivably abusive. Abuse is ingrained into every facet of its operation, from the child stealing to the Harrowing and beyond that.

[AlexanderCousland]

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if Kirkwall was "fixable", the Circle system is, at base, unforgivably abusive. Abuse is ingrained into every facet of its operation, from the child stealing to the Harrowing and beyond that.

*eye roll

How is the harrowing abusive?

[Medhia Nox]

Any mage incapable of doing the Harrowing - is utterly incapable of being a hero.

Better to be Tranquilized than to be a victim the rest of your life.

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if Kirkwall was "fixable", the Circle system is, at base, unforgivably abusive. Abuse is ingrained into every facet of its operation, from the child stealing to the Harrowing and beyond that.

*eye roll

How is the harrowing abusive?

Derp. Is there another word for forcing students to undergo a test that could kill them?

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Any mage incapable of doing the Harrowing - is utterly incapable of being a hero.

Better to be Tranquilized than to be a victim the rest of your life.

Except the Harrowing is a useless test that gauges nothing of the kind.

And why should any mage give a **** about being a 'hero'?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 octobre 2013 - 12:08 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Well, I suppose if the mage is never going to cast spells... or, go outside and encounter anything resembling darkspawn, high dragons, bandits, etc. etc. - or, ever go anywhere near the Fade ever. Those things could, after all "kill them".

It's a shame they were born a mage - better to be a Farmer.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Well, I suppose if the mage is never going to cast spells... or, go outside and encounter anything resembling darkspawn, high dragons, bandits, etc. etc. -

The Harrowing doesn't gauge their ability to face any of those things either, so it's still useless.

or, ever go anywhere near the Fade ever. Those things could, after all "kill them".

Going into the Fade is not common practice, because of the truckloads of lyrium it requires. In fact, it seems like, with extremely rare exception, the Harrowing is the only time the procedure is performed.

So yeah. It's useless. And it doesn't gauge their ability to resist demons either. And we know that because we've seen mages who passed their Harrowings fall before demons like so many dominos.

The test not only kills many of the people who take it, it's also a giant waste of everyone's time.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Sorry, were I a mage, I would want to know I can trust my colleagues even if I weren't living in the same Circle.

And I would want the confidence the Harrowing provides.

The fear of what I "could" do (meaning, being possessed) would undermine my encounter with my first demon. I actually see the Harrowing as a safety net for that first encounter.

I care less about what could happen to me - since I know I would die before allowing a demon to possess me - but demons can overpower the mage forcefully (Codex). But were the demon to crush my existence in the Fade - it has access to my body as a skin suit it can ruin the lives of countless others with. That - to me - is unacceptable.

Just a different view of the test I suppose.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 octobre 2013 - 12:43 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Sorry, were I a mage, I would want to know I can trust my colleagues even if I weren't living in the same Circle.

And I would want the confidence the Harrowing provides.

The fear of what I "could" do would undermine my encounter with my first demon. I actually see the Harrowing as a safety net for my first encounter.

I care less about what could happen to me - since I know I would die before allowing a demon to possess me - but demons can overpower the mage forcefully (Codex). But were the demon to crush my existence in the Fade - it has access to my body as a skin suit it can ruin the lives of countless others with. That - to me - is unacceptable.

Just a different view of the test I suppose.

It's good that you aren't a mage then, and therefore have the luxury of viewing the situation so clinically. 

[Medhia Nox]

@sandalisthemaker: Don't undermind someone elses opinion just because you think everyone would think the way you might.

If you want to hide from adversity - I have no problem with it, but don't demand everyone be like you to justify your view of things.

Not taking the Harrowing doesn't keep you safe from demons.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 octobre 2013 - 12:46 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@sandalisthemaker: Don't undermind someone elses opinion just because you think everyone would think the way you might.

If you want to hide from adversity - I have no problem with it, but don't demand everyone be like you to justify your view of things.

Not taking the Harrowing doesn't keep you safe from demons.

Who's making demands?

[ObserverStatus]

Chaos Hammer wrote...
WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

We can't all just get along because the Templar have gotten the Cerberus treatment. They're all addicted to Red Lyrium and it maxe u rilly stoopid. Thair branes r two dumb two undurrstand the nead too comprowmize.

Modifié par bobobo878, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:37 .

[dragonflight288]

bobobo878 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...
WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

We can't all just get along because the Templar have gotten the Cerberus treatment. They're all addicted to Red Lyrium and it maxe u rilly stoopid. Thair branes r two dumb two undurrstand the nead too comprowmize.

It's unlikely every templar went that road, especially since the Dragon Age team is completely different from the Mass Effect team. Heck, some of the Dragon Age devs have specifically said they never played Mass Effect because they've been working on Dragon Age for so long.

[Fast Jimmy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't matter if Kirkwall was "fixable", the Circle system is, at base, unforgivably abusive. Abuse is ingrained into every facet of its operation, from the child stealing to the Harrowing and beyond that.

*eye roll

How is the harrowing abusive?

Well... there is the whole "them summoning a demon to try and take over your body and then killing you if you fail" aspect to it. I mean... I'm not against the practice, but it is not exactly Hogwarts, either.

[Medhia Nox]

@Fast Jimmy: No, Hogwarts world has a mage prison where Dementors suck "hope" out of you and there's no convenient retcon for it.

Hogwarts is a place where preening, self-indulgent mages would rather live with their heads so far up their arses that they ignore the - what - six? attempts of the Dark Lord to return? Then, when he gets back - they try to hide it - then, they're all like: "OMG!? DARK LORD WHA?! WHO KNEW?"

Hogwarts is a world where diabolic mages have enslaved every fantastic creature - and that's not just the "evil" mages - the school itself uses slave labor in the form of house elves.

I'd would rather live in Thedas - if it weren't for being able to flee into the muggle world.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:55 .

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Sorry, were I a mage, I would want to know I can trust my colleagues even if I weren't living in the same Circle.

And I would want the confidence the Harrowing provides.

What confidence does the Harrowing provide? Harrowed mages fall prey to demons all the time.

Senior Enchanter Wynne couldn't even see through the illusions of the Sloth Demon. You know who was able to? Morrigan the apostate, and Sten the Qunari. Neither one is a circle-trained mage.

The fear of what I "could" do (meaning, being possessed) would undermine my encounter with my first demon. I actually see the Harrowing as a safety net for that first encounter.

But the Harrowing is objectively demonstrated to be no such thing, and of those who take it, many fail.

I care less about what could happen to me - since I know I would die before allowing a demon to possess me - but demons can overpower the mage forcefully (Codex). But were the demon to crush my existence in the Fade - it has access to my body as a skin suit it can ruin the lives of countless others with. That - to me - is unacceptable.

Just a different view of the test I suppose.

That's all irrelevent because the Harrowing simply does not prevent any of that from happening to you. It doesn't make you personally safer from demonic possession, and it doesn't make your fellow mages any more 'trustworthy'.

The security provided by the Harrowing is an illusion. All you acheive through the procedure is exposing mages to unnecessary risk for no gain.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Fast Jimmy: No, Hogwarts world has a mage prison where Dementors suck "hope" out of you and there's no convenient retcon for it.

Hogwarts is a place where preening, self-indulgent mages would rather live with their heads so far up their arses that they ignore the - what - six? attempts of the Dark Lord to return? Then, when he gets back - they try to hide it - then, they're all like: "OMG!? DARK LORD WHA?! WHO KNEW?"

Hogwarts is a world where diabolic mages have enslaved every fantastic creature - and that's not just the "evil" mages - the school itself uses slave labor in the form of house elves.

I'd would rather live in Thedas - if it weren't for being able to flee into the muggle world.

Technically, it was a large portion of the student body and the Ministry of Magic itself that ignored the signs and the evidence.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.

The Harrowing doesn't give you any experience, you succeed by sheer luck. Those who pass are no safer or better off than they were before.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.

The Harrowing does'nt help mages defend against demon possession.