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Middle Ground?


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#601
dragonflight288

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.


The wiki says that only the extremely talented are given the Harrowing. Those who are seen as weak-willed or lacking in skill are forced into tranquility.

The apprentices taken into the Harrowing aleady have the knowledge and skill as deemed appropriate by the templars and Enchanters. The Harrowing does nothing to change it, but it can kill them if they take to long, make a bad deal, or lose in battle.

Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.

#602
Martyr1777

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Former_Fiend wrote...

I believe the path to compromise begins with beating both parties over the head until they agree with you.


Hmmm...

I need to schedule a meeting with the US Congress. :bandit:

#603
Martyr1777

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Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Sorry, were I a mage, I would want to know I can trust my colleagues even if I weren't living in the same Circle.

And I would want the confidence the Harrowing provides.

What confidence does the Harrowing provide? Harrowed mages fall prey to demons all the time.

Senior Enchanter Wynne couldn't even see through the illusions of the Sloth Demon. You know who was able to? Morrigan the apostate, and Sten the Qunari. Neither one is a circle-trained mage.

The fear of what I "could" do (meaning, being possessed) would undermine my encounter with my first demon. I actually see the Harrowing as a safety net for that first encounter.

But the Harrowing is objectively demonstrated to be no such thing, and of those who take it, many fail.

I care less about what could happen to me - since I know I would die before allowing a demon to possess me - but demons can overpower the mage forcefully (Codex). But were the demon to crush my existence in the Fade - it has access to my body as a skin suit it can ruin the lives of countless others with. That - to me - is unacceptable.

Just a different view of the test I suppose.

That's all irrelevent because the Harrowing simply does not prevent any of that from happening to you. It doesn't make you personally safer from demonic possession, and it doesn't make your fellow mages any more 'trustworthy'.

The security provided by the Harrowing is an illusion. All you acheive through the procedure is exposing mages to unnecessary risk for no gain.


Have to say, this is a damn good argument. I mean in DAO the only mages I would trust are Morrigan and Wynn. One has never even heard of the Harrowing and the other happens to be 'possessed' anyway. Seriously how many of the Circle mages were abominations.

Doesn't really show a good track record for the reasons behind the Harrowing. I mean at best the practice just shows who has the strength to stop. It doesn't mean any of that pass it aren't power hungry sociopath, it just means they aren't so stupid they try to take that power when they are the sole focus of a couple squads of Templars.

#604
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errant_knight wrote...

Qistina wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Templar skills ARE magic. They just gain them through ingestion of Lyrium and not through a connection to the Fade.


That is DA2 retcon, DA:O says otherwise

What i can say there is a confusion among the devs themselves


Information we get from characters is just what they personally know, so I wouldn't call that a retcon, just incomplete information. The bit about all templar's having to take lyrium to use their abilities appears to be a genuine retcon.


Then why the devs intentionally misleading the player in the first game? Surely the second game is not made the same time as the first game. In the first game i got the impression that the Chantry lie, they give the Templar lyrium as the method of control, i got the impression that everyone actually can use magic to certain level but only Mages who have full potential to use Magic because of strong afinity with the Fade, i got the impression of Templar training is actually mental exercise to resist magic that is come from the Fade the realm of illusions and the rest of Templar ability is Spirit School magic but the Chantry don't see it that way

The first game already bias against Mages, so Alistair dialogue at least give a "second opinion" to the player about the whole thing, something to ponder, something to take consideration. If Alistair is incorrect or he don't know what he's talking about, then i could throw away my first game, why bother playing as a Mage?

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .


#605
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Now this dialogue is different from a perspective of a Mage and non-Mage

For non-Mages we can assume the non-Mage see the Templar ability is magic. But for a Mage, Solona sure know what is Alistair talking about. Alistair response is appropriate. The whole premise is anti-magic vs magic and anti-Mage vs Mage. When a Mage argue with anti-Mage the nature of anti-Magic ability, that's something, because there is Anti-Magic in Spirit School in Circle syllabus. I can assume that the Chantry deny it just because sentiment over magic

The retcon destroy that utterly

Solona : So the Templar using magic themselves?

Image IPB

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:41 .


#606
addiction21

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dragonflight288 wrote...


Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.


Actually that speaks volumes about the skill and ability of that mage.

Not that I am a fan of the Harrowing and would prefer to see such a trial by fire abolished since it really proves nothing.

#607
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We know the nature of Magic because we can play as a Mage, we are going to the Fade and on and on...we never know the nature of Templar training and ability because we never play as true Templar

The Warden may learn Templar ability from Alistair and never use lyrium at all. Hawke suddenly can learn Templar ability just by consuming lyrium?

So now, what Alistair talking in DA:O is reliable, he's the only source we want to know about Templars. In DA2 we never become a real Templar ourselves, we only rely on the skill description. That's unfair

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:49 .


#608
dragonflight288

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addiction21 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...


Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.


Actually that speaks volumes about the skill and ability of that mage.

Not that I am a fan of the Harrowing and would prefer to see such a trial by fire abolished since it really proves nothing.


But how long is 'too' long? Is there a set time limite before the templars kill them, or does it change depending on who the Knight-Commander is? That is never explained in the lore.

#609
EmperorSahlertz

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.


The wiki says that only the extremely talented are given the Harrowing. Those who are seen as weak-willed or lacking in skill are forced into tranquility.

The apprentices taken into the Harrowing aleady have the knowledge and skill as deemed appropriate by the templars and Enchanters. The Harrowing does nothing to change it, but it can kill them if they take to long, make a bad deal, or lose in battle.

Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.

I suppose you mean only the "sufficiently skilled" mages, considering that it would seem the majority of apprentices are allowed to take the Harrowing.

And to all the naysayers: I suppose we should also abolish the drivers license. I mean, it doesnt PREVENT anyone from ever crashing their cars, and it needlessly endanger their lives during the tests. right? RIGHT?.... Morons....

#610
Lotion Soronarr

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Mesina2 wrote...
With Meredith, I don't think the idol made much difference. Perhaps it had just speed up process.


It made all the difference. She was a strict, but sane and reasonable templar before.


But all I'm saying if it wasn't for Anders, something else would spark the war. Just later and differently. It might have been another mage or a Templar or some 3rd party for whatever reason.


Maybe. Maybe in a 100 years. Maybe in 1000. Maybe an accord would have been reached wihout Fiona and things for mages in the Circles would have become better and there would be no war.

#611
Lotion Soronarr

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Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.

The Harrowing doesn't give you any experience, you succeed by sheer luck. Those who pass are no safer or better off than they were before.


Wrong. They were better than before.
The Harrowing isn't like a flu shot that makes oyu immune. It just proves you can resist it.
It is no guarantee you want fall, but it does increase your chances and proves that you managed to resist at least once.

I would also like to remind you that the Harrowing was created BY THE MAGES and is also used in Tevinter.

In other words, you can just as easily argue that drivers licences shouldnt' be required, because people who pass the test and get the license also get into accidents.

#612
Lotion Soronarr

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Qistina wrote...
Then why the devs intentionally misleading the player in the first game?

The first game already bias against Mages, so Alistair dialogue at least give a "second opinion" to the player about the whole thing, something to ponder, something to take consideration. If Alistair is incorrect or he don't know what he's talking about, then i could throw away my first game, why bother playing as a Mage?


Oy. This is funny.

#613
Jedi Master of Orion

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I don't know if I would call Meredith reasonable but I doubt she would have been the type to kill the Circle for an unrelated apostate's actions.

#614
Lotion Soronarr

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Qistina wrote...
For non-Mages we can assume the non-Mage see the Templar ability is magic. But for a Mage, Solona sure know what is Alistair talking about. Alistair response is appropriate. The whole premise is anti-magic vs magic and anti-Mage vs Mage. When a Mage argue with anti-Mage the nature of anti-Magic ability, that's something, because there is Anti-Magic in Spirit School in Circle syllabus. I can assume that the Chantry deny it just because sentiment over magic

The retcon destroy that utterly



There is no "anti-magic". 
Just magic that blocks magic, or in other words, spells designed to combat other mages. It's not something else entirely.

#615
Plaintiff

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.


The wiki says that only the extremely talented are given the Harrowing. Those who are seen as weak-willed or lacking in skill are forced into tranquility.

The apprentices taken into the Harrowing aleady have the knowledge and skill as deemed appropriate by the templars and Enchanters. The Harrowing does nothing to change it, but it can kill them if they take to long, make a bad deal, or lose in battle.

Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.

I suppose you mean only the "sufficiently skilled" mages, considering that it would seem the majority of apprentices are allowed to take the Harrowing.

And to all the naysayers: I suppose we should also abolish the drivers license. I mean, it doesnt PREVENT anyone from ever crashing their cars, and it needlessly endanger their lives during the tests. right? RIGHT?.... Morons....

Unlike the Harrowing, people are given lessons on how to drive cars prior to taking the exam.

In the Mage Origin of DA:O, your character is thrown into the Harrowing with no knowledge, no information and no equipment.

Your analogy fails.

#616
EmperorSahlertz

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Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.


The wiki says that only the extremely talented are given the Harrowing. Those who are seen as weak-willed or lacking in skill are forced into tranquility.

The apprentices taken into the Harrowing aleady have the knowledge and skill as deemed appropriate by the templars and Enchanters. The Harrowing does nothing to change it, but it can kill them if they take to long, make a bad deal, or lose in battle.

Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.

I suppose you mean only the "sufficiently skilled" mages, considering that it would seem the majority of apprentices are allowed to take the Harrowing.

And to all the naysayers: I suppose we should also abolish the drivers license. I mean, it doesnt PREVENT anyone from ever crashing their cars, and it needlessly endanger their lives during the tests. right? RIGHT?.... Morons....

Unlike the Harrowing, people are given lessons on how to drive cars prior to taking the exam.

In the Mage Origin of DA:O, your character is thrown into the Harrowing with no knowledge, no information and no equipment.

Your analogy fails.

Sadly for your meagre grasp of the lore, mages are also given magical education prior to the Harrowing. They even know about demons. What they don't know, is what the Harrowing itself entices. During a proper driver's license test, you also get an unfamiliar driving expert and he will make you drive an unfamiliar route. All of this for you to prove that you are responsible and skilled enough to drive a car. So my analogy works perfectly.
I'd also like to point out that firemen, police officers, and soldier ALL undergo live fire exercises, yet none of these exercises prevent either from dying (gasp!). Surely we should abolish these exercises! They are inhumane!

#617
Silfren

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: Being inexperienced is an even worse defense.


The wiki says that only the extremely talented are given the Harrowing. Those who are seen as weak-willed or lacking in skill are forced into tranquility.

The apprentices taken into the Harrowing aleady have the knowledge and skill as deemed appropriate by the templars and Enchanters. The Harrowing does nothing to change it, but it can kill them if they take to long, make a bad deal, or lose in battle.

Say the mage is taking a long time, but is otherwise succeeding. They haven't made a deal, and they haven't lost the fight against the demon, but the templars get overanxious and kill the mage anyway. That has nothing to do with the skill or ability of the mage. It's simply killing the mage for no real reason.

I suppose you mean only the "sufficiently skilled" mages, considering that it would seem the majority of apprentices are allowed to take the Harrowing.

And to all the naysayers: I suppose we should also abolish the drivers license. I mean, it doesnt PREVENT anyone from ever crashing their cars, and it needlessly endanger their lives during the tests. right? RIGHT?.... Morons....

Unlike the Harrowing, people are given lessons on how to drive cars prior to taking the exam.

In the Mage Origin of DA:O, your character is thrown into the Harrowing with no knowledge, no information and no equipment.

Your analogy fails.

Sadly for your meagre grasp of the lore, mages are also given magical education prior to the Harrowing. They even know about demons. What they don't know, is what the Harrowing itself entices. During a proper driver's license test, you also get an unfamiliar driving expert and he will make you drive an unfamiliar route. All of this for you to prove that you are responsible and skilled enough to drive a car. So my analogy works perfectly.
I'd also like to point out that firemen, police officers, and soldier ALL undergo live fire exercises, yet none of these exercises prevent either from dying (gasp!). Surely we should abolish these exercises! They are inhumane!


Nope, your analogies still fail.  Yes, firefighters and police officers and soldiers undergo enactments meant to simulate live scenarios as much as possible.  However, all of these people undergo rigorous training before hand--and they most assuredly are not thrown naked, or alone, into battle.  Mages' training is not comparable.  Learning to cast spells in a safe environment and being told that demons are dangerous are not training exercises that adequately prepare one for being thrown into the Fade with a demon that was put there specifically to attack and/or tempt them...especially when it seems to be integral to the test that the mages being tested are NOT trained or even warned ahead of time specifically because the templars want them tested while at their weakest. 

I believe it is stated in World of Thedas that the Harrowing IS actually reserved for only the most talented mages, which seems to suggest actually that most mages do NOT go through the Harrowing.  I don't think this makes any sense, as the lore prior to this suggested otherwise, but there it is.  It looks more than a bit like yet another retcon attempt to fuddle with people's perceptions.

#618
aTrueFool

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Some quotes from World of Thedas p100 The Harrowing

'Years of instruction culminate in a difficult test known as "the Harrowing." Those who fail face death, and mages who do not wish to undergo the trial are made Tranquil.'

'Any living, Full-fledge mage who has spent time in the Circle has undergone this test.'

Modifié par aTrueFool, 29 octobre 2013 - 09:42 .


#619
Lotion Soronarr

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Silfren wrote...

Nope, your analogies still fail.  Yes, firefighters and police officers and soldiers undergo enactments meant to simulate live scenarios as much as possible.  However, all of these people undergo rigorous training before hand--and they most assuredly are not thrown naked, or alone, into battle.  Mages' training is not comparable.  Learning to cast spells in a safe environment and being told that demons are dangerous are not training exercises that adequately prepare one for being thrown into the Fade with a demon that was put there specifically to attack and/or tempt them...especially when it seems to be integral to the test that the mages being tested are NOT trained or even warned ahead of time specifically because the templars want them tested while at their weakest. 


Wrong. Mages do get training in what ways the Circles can provide. They are tutored adn trained by mages.

And mages - unlike soldiers - face a compeltely different trype of threat. Possesion. An attack against mind and soul.

Yes, mages are thrown alone - because that's the danger they will face in reality. Demon will tempt them alone. And when they are at their weakest.
No, they aren't thrown naked.
They have knowledge of demons and magic and the guidance of their teachers.

They do not know the exact details of the test - but that's the point of the test. A test who's exact details you know ceases to be a test.

#620
EmperorSahlertz

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Obviously SIlfren have no idea how elite soldiers are trained..

#621
LOLandStuff

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Plaintiff and Harrowing again? Why am I not surprised?

#622
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is no "anti-magic".
Just magic that blocks magic, or in other words, spells designed to combat other mages. It's not something else entirely.


You speak English?

What magic that block magic?

The magic that block itself?

#623
Plaintiff

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Sadly for your meagre grasp of the lore, mages are also given magical education prior to the Harrowing. They even know about demons. What they don't know, is what the Harrowing itself entices.

What mages don't know is how to fight demons.

Because they are not taught.

'Magical education', whatever that entails, is clearly not adequate. Mages don't have any spells or meditation exercises or any tools of any kind to help them combat demons. They aren't even taught how to recognise a demonic illusion, as Wynne's Nightmare makes painfully clear.

You know what firefighters do before they get thrown into live exercises? They learn the specific skills needed to fight fires. We don't just teach them how to drive trucks, slide down poles and call it good.

What demon-fighting skills or techniques are mages equipped with prior to their Harrowing? Name some, explain how they work.

#624
EmperorSahlertz

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Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Sadly for your meagre grasp of the lore, mages are also given magical education prior to the Harrowing. They even know about demons. What they don't know, is what the Harrowing itself entices.

What mages don't know is how to fight demons.

Because they are not taught.

'Magical education', whatever that entails, is clearly not adequate. Mages don't have any spells or meditation exercises or any tools of any kind to help them combat demons. They aren't even taught how to recognise a demonic illusion, as Wynne's Nightmare makes painfully clear.

You know what firefighters do before they get thrown into live exercises? They learn the specific skills needed to fight fires. We don't just teach them how to drive trucks, slide down poles and call it good.

What demon-fighting skills or techniques are mages equipped with prior to their Harrowing? Name some, explain how they work.

And you know this how? Oh that is right, your own headcanon supercedes the ACTUAL canon of the game, again how silly of me to forget.

In all seriousnes though, instead of your silly headcanon, we KNOW that mages are haunted by demons their entire life. Therefore we can logically deduct that already from an early age, the mages are taught EXACTLY what is going on with them, and how to combat it. However, the Harrowing itself they aren't taught about. THis means that for a mage, who had to struggle all his life with demons, will find the Harrowing easy. While a weak pathetic mage, who has never had much trouble with demons, might find it terrifying, but his lack of experience is exactly why the Harrowing is needed.

But can we just quickly confirm that you actually know squat about the entirety of what Circle Mages are really taught, and that the crux of the amtter is that you really, really really, want it to be true that they aren't taught about demons?

#625
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"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:29 .