810 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

I guess everyone is sleeping during class or doesn't give a damn when they're told numerous times about the dangers of the Fade and demons. Because I really don't see how you can't be prepared to face a demon when every day you have templars surrounding you and a constant remind they're there to kill you if you get possessed.

[LOLandStuff]

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

Qistina, you make my head hurt.

A perfect example would be:

"Do not involve in free sex. Use protection."

Locks you up in a room with a prostitute with STD and leaves a condom on the floor.

[Boycott Bioware]

Harrowing itself evil in nature

i. summoning demon into a part of the Fade
ii. put in demon into apprentice by sending apprentice into the Fade

remember that it is not the physical body that goes into the Fade, but the mage consciousness, in other word "soul". Alistair is right when he say "they put demon into her"

In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons

If talk to Mages after harrowing they say "the Templar say it is the fastest Harrowing they ever see"

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:38 .

[Johnny_TYS38]

The question how to resist the demon. We dont know even know if the mages that need to undergo the harrowing have enough knowledge about demons. For all we know, all the years he/she spend in the tower studying destructive spells only and know nothing about demons. After seeing what the harrowing was all about in the mages origins, why are they so secretive about the harrowing? Are they afraid that apprentice that pass the harrowing just go around saying, "you just need go into the fade, resist some demons and bam, you pass your harrowing."

Modifié par Johnny_TYS38, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:40 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The concept of Harrowing is

i. drug the apprentice using Lyrium
ii. summoning demon and put into apprentice

By that, the "resist demonic possession" fall, because Harrowing is making apprentice possessed

[EmperorSahlertz]

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Qistina wrote...

Harrowing itself evil in nature

i. summoning demon into a part of the Fade
ii. put in demon into apprentice by sending apprentice into the Fade

remember that it is not the physical body that goes into the Fade, but the mage consciousness, in other word "soul". Alistair is right when he say "they put demon into her"

In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons

If talk to Mages after harrowing they say "the Templar say it is the fastest Harrowing they ever see"

Another glaring example of Qstine not getting what is going on in Dragon Age.....

The apprentice are not possessed. The entire purpose is to show that you can defend yourself against possession. Also the apprentice is sent into the Fade, where demons and spirits roam freely. So OF COURSE there will be demons and spirits, what the ****did you expect?

[Zazzerka]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive in a destruction derby..

FTFY

[Star fury]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

Qistina, you make my head hurt.

A perfect example would be:

"Do not involve in free sex. Use protection."

Locks you up in a room with a prostitute with STD and leaves a condom on the floor.

No, it would be like throwing a raw recruit against a battle-hardened veteran soldier without telling the rookie about awaiting dangers. I think I saw something like that in one anime.

[LOLandStuff]

Strippers and booze.
Oh wait, they have desire demons. But NO booze!

[Johnny_TYS38]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

The student would have to learn the theory part of driving, take the theory test and undergo several session of practical session before taking the driving test to get a drving license. For the Harrowing, I dont remeber Irving or any templars giving insturction about the harrowing, just walk towards the lyrium, pick up some of it then it happen. Of course you are going to have people possessed if they dont know what to look out for and how to fight it. Some apprentice might not have enough knowledge about demonology or even the fade 

[Johnny_TYS38]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

The student would have to learn the theory part of driving, take the theory test and undergo several session of practical lesson before taking the driving test to get a drving license. For the Harrowing, I dont remeber Irving or any templars giving insturction about the harrowing, just walk towards the lyrium, pick up some of it then it happen. Of course you are going to have people possessed if they dont know what to look out for and how to fight it. Some apprentice might not have enough knowledge about demonology or even the fade 

Modifié par Johnny_TYS38, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:54 .

[Star fury]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

Yeah and our police punish failed students with death too. 

Modifié par Star fury, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is no "anti-magic".
Just magic that blocks magic, or in other words, spells designed to combat other mages. It's not something else entirely.

You speak English?

What magic that block magic?

The magic that block itself?

Does that surprise you? The concept isn't new.

Use a steel shield to block a steel bullet. Use steel to stop steel. Use magic to stop magic.

[Thomas Andresen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

Except that the drivers lessons are in controlled environments, and even when they're not, it's still baby steps. Learning to drive is relatively safe.

The Harrowing is anything but.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Sadly for your meagre grasp of the lore, mages are also given magical education prior to the Harrowing. They even know about demons. What they don't know, is what the Harrowing itself entices.

What mages don't know is how to fight demons.

Because they are not taught.

'Magical education', whatever that entails, is clearly not adequate. Mages don't have any spells or meditation exercises or any tools of any kind to help them combat demons. They aren't even taught how to recognise a demonic illusion, as Wynne's Nightmare makes painfully clear.

You know what firefighters do before they get thrown into live exercises? They learn the specific skills needed to fight fires. We don't just teach them how to drive trucks, slide down poles and call it good.

What demon-fighting skills or techniques are mages equipped with prior to their Harrowing? Name some, explain how they work.

And you know this how? Oh that is right, your own headcanon supercedes the ACTUAL canon of the game, again how silly of me to forget.

In all seriousnes though, instead of your silly headcanon, we KNOW that mages are haunted by demons their entire life. Therefore we can logically deduct that already from an early age, the mages are taught EXACTLY what is going on with them, and how to combat it. However, the Harrowing itself they aren't taught about. THis means that for a mage, who had to struggle all his life with demons, will find the Harrowing easy. While a weak pathetic mage, who has never had much trouble with demons, might find it terrifying, but his lack of experience is exactly why the Harrowing is needed.

But can we just quickly confirm that you actually know squat about the entirety of what Circle Mages are really taught, and that the crux of the amtter is that you really, really really, want it to be true that they aren't taught about demons?

Tell me what they're taught, then.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
What mages don't know is how to fight demons. [/qutoe]

With fireballs.

[quote]
Because they are not taught.[/quote]

Sez who?
And even assuming you are correct, why do you think it's even something it CAN be taught?
Can you teach willpower to me?

[quote]
'Magical education', whatever that entails, is clearly not adequate. Mages don't have any spells or meditation exercises or any tools of any kind to help them combat demons. They aren't even taught how to recognise a demonic illusion, as Wynne's Nightmare makes painfully clear.[/quote]

And what makes you think all demonics illusions are the same, or that there is a simple way to recongize them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it
[/quote]

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.


[quote]
In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

[LOLandStuff]

Just because we don't see it doesn't mean they're not teaching them. They don't mention the Harrowing but they're told of how dangerous the Fade and it denizens are.
What, you want the First Enchanter to enter the Fade with them and hold their hand then tell them all the nasty things that demon over there is gonna do to them?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

The student would have to learn the theory part of driving, take the theory test and undergo several session of practical session before taking the driving test to get a drving license. For the Harrowing, I dont remeber Irving or any templars giving insturction about the harrowing, just walk towards the lyrium, pick up some of it then it happen. Of course you are going to have people possessed if they dont know what to look out for and how to fight it. Some apprentice might not have enough knowledge about demonology or even the fade 

Yeah... Mages spent the years before their Harrowing just siting around the Circle. If they are lucky they might look at their belly buttons a bit.

What do YOU think they spent the years before their Harrowing on? Could it perhaps possibly be something akin to, I dont know, theoretical and practical preparation and education regarding, maybe MAGIC?
I can certainly agree that the Circle doesn't purpsoefully pit the apprentice against a demon before the Harrowing, but the matter of fact is, that many students probably already have experience on the matter. But even so, it would probably be considered too dangerous to throw a completely untrained mage in front of a demon. LUCKILY, since they are attending a magical school (funny how that palce teaches MAGIC), the mages who actually undertake the Harrowing are no longer rookies, and are practically fully fledged mages.......

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...
Tell me what they're taught, then.

Oh I don't know, could it be that they are taught MAGIC??

[Thomas Andresen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
With fireballs.

"Simple killing is a warrior's job. The real dangers of the fade are preconceptions, careless trust... pride."

On principle, I agree with Mouse. "True tests never end."

[Fast Jimmy]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

Except that the drivers lessons are in controlled environments, and even when they're not, it's still baby steps. Learning to drive is relatively safe.

The Harrowing is anything but.

Training a Mage is more akin to training a soldier than teaching a student. Simply because if you don't pass your English Lit test, you don't die. The same cannot be said of a soldier... or a Mage. 

You can put a hundred soldiers through basic training, teaching them everything they need to know about battle, survival and sheer determination. Of those hundred, when they are deployed, some will die. Others will become expert markman, fantastic tacticians, born leaders or covert geniuses. Point being - the same training won't yield the same results with different people. Some will fail, simply due to the fact that you are dealing with life and death. But, unlike a soldier, there is no option to go to war with a Mage - they are at war with the very nature of the world. 

If no training was given, the mage runs the risk of dying or harming others. Those who point at such systems as the Keepers, various Apostates and the Rivani Seers fail to understand a simple fact - one on one training will always be more effective. The Circle's job is how to teach a large group of individuals, all at once and to make sure as many of them succeed as possible.

Also, teaching willpower is such an abstract commandment it might as well be laughable. What's the tactic there? Teach ethics? It's abundantly apparent that such classes (or religious edict, in a more likely Thedosian scenario) are highly ineffective at actually increasing resistance. Which leads only practical activities. If not throwing them in the Fade, what would you do... make them sit in front of a freshly baked cake for hours in end and not let them take a bite?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 octobre 2013 - 12:47 .

[Johnny_TYS38]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Johnny_TYS38 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Qistina wrote...

"Do not involve in free sex" says the teacher, then he give free condoms and leave the class

A doctor inject a person with drugs, lock him in a room, few days later he come back with police, he say "you must resist the drug temptation or the police will kill you", the doctor put needle and drug in front of the person

That is Harrowing, put demons into apprentice then see if they can resist

It is more like putting a student behind a wheel and asking him to drive.. Oh wait we do that.

The student would have to learn the theory part of driving, take the theory test and undergo several session of practical session before taking the driving test to get a drving license. For the Harrowing, I dont remeber Irving or any templars giving insturction about the harrowing, just walk towards the lyrium, pick up some of it then it happen. Of course you are going to have people possessed if they dont know what to look out for and how to fight it. Some apprentice might not have enough knowledge about demonology or even the fade 

Yeah... Mages spent the years before their Harrowing just siting around the Circle. If they are lucky they might look at their belly buttons a bit.

What do YOU think they spent the years before their Harrowing on? Could it perhaps possibly be something akin to, I dont know, theoretical and practical preparation and education regarding, maybe MAGIC?
I can certainly agree that the Circle doesn't purpsoefully pit the apprentice against a demon before the Harrowing, but the matter of fact is, that many students probably already have experience on the matter. But even so, it would probably be considered too dangerous to throw a completely untrained mage in front of a demon. LUCKILY, since they are attending a magical school (funny how that palce teaches MAGIC), the mages who actually undertake the Harrowing are no longer rookies, and are practically fully fledged mages.......

All apprentice dont know what the harrowing was like. The mages that pass the harrowing were told to shut up about it and those who failed were killed on the spot. The apprentice was just told to take the harrowing, no instruction given, nobody know what he/she will encounter. Maybe the enchanters can give some advice or instuction like telling the difference between sprits and demons, resisting temptation, commuicating with sprits. If the students are already full fledged mages who knows how to handle demons already, why bother go through the harrowing?

[Thomas Andresen]

You can put a hundred soldiers through basic training, teaching them everything they need to know about battle, survival and sheer determination. Of those hundred, when they are deployed, some will die. Others will become expert markman, fantastic tacticians, born leaders or covert geniuses. Point being - the same training won't yield the same results with different people. Some will fail, simply due to the fact that you are dealing with life and death. But, unlike a soldier, there is no option to go to war with a Mage - they are at war with the very nature of the world.

This is all true.

Also, teaching willpower is such an abstract commandment it might as well be laughable. What's the tactic there? Teach ethics? It's abundantly apparent that such classes (or religious edict, in a more likely Thedosian scenario) are highly ineffective at actually increasing resistance. Which leads only practical activities. If not throwing them in the Fade, what would you do... make them sit in front of a freshly baked cake for hours in end and not let them take a bite?

Many mages are either excessively naïve, or cripplingly fearful of their own abilities. I'd say those are two good places to start.