810 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I agree Circle Mages need training , and the idea behind the Harrowing isn't bad (if they could provide a safety net...).
But the Chantry tends to shy away from everything related to the fade , it's understandable , they cannot control what mages are doing over there, and the whole Golden city is kind of a big deal for them.
The end result sadly is their fear of the unknown put mages in bigger danger.
They have no solution for people like Feynriel , they just cannot deal with things like this .
The only way for him to master his power and survive is to flee to Tevinter.

It's the same with the Litany of Adralla , the spell that can break mind control , it comes from Tevinter.
Lambert , in Asunder , can sense Cole when Evangeline is just clueless , and obviously the dude spent time in Tevinter too...

The way the Chantry tries to control magic is...well it's like having rats in the cellar and the only solution you can come up with is pretty much setting the place on fire.

[Fast Jimmy]

Many mages are either excessively naïve, or cripplingly fearful of their own abilities. I'd say those are two good places to start.

So... something like this?

http://stream1.gifso...he-ground-o.gif

Welcome to the REAL WORLD, [removed profanity]

Modifié par BioWareMod01, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thomas Andresen wrote...
Except that the drivers lessons are in controlled environments, and even when they're not, it's still baby steps. Learning to drive is relatively safe.

The Harrowing is anything but.

Neither is demon possesion.
How do you train that?

Sooner or later a mage will have to face a demon. There is no way to make it "safe".


Also, Irwing pretty much tells the mage warden that they prepared him the best they could.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...
Except that the drivers lessons are in controlled environments, and even when they're not, it's still baby steps. Learning to drive is relatively safe.

The Harrowing is anything but.

Neither is demon possesion.
How do you train that?

Sooner or later a mage will have to face a demon. There is no way to make it "safe".


Also, Irwing pretty much tells the mage warden that they prepared him the best they could.

True, there is no way to truly prepare to face a demon until you actually do encounter one.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Tell me what they're taught, then.

Oh I don't know, could it be that they are taught MAGIC??

That isn't what he was asking, and I think you knew it. He was specifically asking techniques the mages are taught that will help them recognize and resist demons.

[Thomas Andresen]

The point I was trying to make, however unsuccessfully, was that mages might be more inclined to learn what they need to if they weren't utterly convinced that magic was a curse.

In my opinion, fear is antithesis to willingness to learn, especially when the subject matter is so intimately tied to your very being. Caution is one thing, reasonable even. Fear does the opposite of helping.

But I can see the necessity of having organized training and rigorous test, and I can see that the options are few.

What I'd like to see the Circle become is a pure learning institution. Entirely disconnected from the Chantry. A place for organized learning and training, but one that isn't a glorified prison.

[Thomas Andresen]

That isn't what he was asking, and I think you knew it. He was specifically asking techniques the mages are taught that will help them recognize and resist demons.

Yes, like the mage origin makes abundantly clear, being taught to fight demons isn't anywhere close to good enough.

[dragonflight288]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

That isn't what he was asking, and I think you knew it. He was specifically asking techniques the mages are taught that will help them recognize and resist demons.

Yes, like the mage origin makes abundantly clear, being taught to fight demons isn't anywhere close to good enough.

Hmmm, I've been having a bad record misreading inflections these past two weeks. So if you would indulge me, is this sarcastic or serious?

[Thomas Andresen]

Perfectly serious. I think if you connect my response to you, with the preceding post, it's clear enough.

[Maverick169]

 There are two big problems I see with the circle. one is the Templars. not the exixtensce of the orginisation but their attitude to mages. they're meant to protect the mages as much as to keep them in check, but from what I've seen, many of them outright hate mages, and would gladly see them wiped out. For the circle to work, the templars need to see mages as being under their protection more than they see them as potential threats. their training should emphasize the fact that they're still human-an oppinion not prevelant amongdt the templars.

the second problem is that the circle is indeed too constricting. correct me if I'm wrong but once you enter the cirlce, you are cut off from your family and much of the outside world. this is the reason so many mages run away, or-like in the case of connor from origins- get hidden away.

The circle needs to provide mages with at least a bit more leniency because, as is they are essentialy jailed for being born mages. the Chantry needs to remember and respect that these people aren't meant to be prisoners. I think allowing some form af familial vistation and supervised trips into nearby towns and cities. Sure it allows for the possibility of escape, but as I pointed out above, the mages aren't prisoners, and shouldn't be treated as such. It is also important to note that some mages-like Wynne-liked being in the cirlce and there is a significantly large faction within it that believes in adhereing to a strict code of conduct.

I think that if the circle would ease up on the mages, the resentment felt within the circel would fade at least somewhat.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar
Does that surprise you? The concept isn't new.

Use a steel shield to block a steel bullet. Use steel to stop steel. Use magic to stop magic.

Magic blocking magic is like virus blocking virus, snake eat it's own tail...it must be anti-virus blocking virus

There's magic, then anti-Magic...the anti-Magic cannot be magic because it's ANTI-Magic.

That is the argument between The Warden and Alistair...Templar is using Anti-Magic, but the nature of Templar ability is doubtfully non-Magical. Like i said the dialogue have different perspective, non-Mage Warden maybe see it "just like Magic", but for a Mage surely he/she know there's a school that teach anti-Magic, it's a branch of Spirit School

Usually, "Anti-Magic" is Holy Blessing of God, miracles...only miracles that ANTI-Magic, but in DA religion itself it something doubtful. Templar train themselves to become anti-Mage, it's not blessing of the Maker, not "holy"

So Spirit School teach "Anti-Magic", it is SPIRIT school, as we know spirits represent positive not negative like demons, "Spirit are the Maker first children"...i assume Anti-Magic branch is not "Magic" per se...but Mage Warden say "So the Templar using Magic themselves?", maybe because he/she take this "Magic" is a part of Magic because it is taught in the school of Magic

What i want to point out is, IF it really like what Alistair say, then Templars are actually communing with spirits, using Magic themselves, the same knowledge Mages have but the Chantry deny it and making it like "something else" maybe saying it "holy"...then giving Templar to sniff lyrium making them thought their power augmented by lyrium and not from the Fade...so the Chantry is evil organization, they try to separate magic with their own

What i am saying is "Magic is actually MIRACLE" but Chantry demonize it and call it "MAGIC" while the same time making their Templars thought their power is miracle and Mages power is Magic

Magic is "the gift of the Maker" remember?, if they are not using "the gift of the Maker", then what? They are using Magic, not Miracle

DA2, destroy that utterly, not only Spirit School changed, Templar ability and description changed.

Edit : My english is bad, i believe i am not explain truly what i want to say...i mean, it is twisted...what being call as magic is actually miracle, what being call as miracle is actually magic...they taught magic to mages while mages actually may learn miracles through anti-Magic branch that makes Templar is not needed

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:32 .

[CroGamer002]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

The point I was trying to make, however unsuccessfully, was that mages might be more inclined to learn what they need to if they weren't utterly convinced that magic was a curse.

In my opinion, fear is antithesis to willingness to learn, especially when the subject matter is so intimately tied to your very being. Caution is one thing, reasonable even. Fear does the opposite of helping.

But I can see the necessity of having organized training and rigorous test, and I can see that the options are few.

What I'd like to see the Circle become is a pure learning institution. Entirely disconnected from the Chantry. A place for organized learning and training, but one that isn't a glorified prison.

But who's gonna pay to maintain their educations and for living necessities?

It would be too much of a cost for some kingdom's to pay for it, in that age.
Plus they could potentially use those teachings for their own agendas.

The Chantry is better to remain connected to the Circle even then, paying for all it's expenses. As their agendas won't cause any internal nor imperialistic wars. As well it cant's it can't enforce it's will on the people through mages, without majorly pissing off kingdom's.

The Chantry is the closest thing on being neutral and wealthy multinational global organization, in the age Dragon Age is set in.
Ain't perfect, but the best for that time.

[Cainhurst Crow]

"Anti-magic" is using your own mana to cancel out the mana of the other caster. Nothing to do with gods or spirits and much more to do with the concept of destructive interference.

[Boycott Bioware]

Darth Brotarian wrote
"Anti-magic" is using your own mana to cancel out the mana of the other caster. Nothing to do with gods or spirits and much more to do with the concept of destructive interference.

Matter and anti-Matter is not the same, and so Magic and anti-Magic

[Boycott Bioware]

It is like Moses fight with Pharaoh magicians...Moses using miracle from God, while the Magicians using magic, ant-Magic vs Magic

Anti-Magic itself being taught in the Circle, that is in Spirit School branch, so there is no need for Templars, Mages themselves can become anti-Mage, it neutralize itself

See? That is how nature work, it balanced itself...that is the beauty of creation. What happen now is the Chantry disrupt the balance by the existence of Templars...they are unnatural, unholy, man made...that is why the world becomes unbalanced. The Chantry totally twisting the religion and become oppressor

So the Maker makes Mages who can use magic, the Maker also make Mages can use anti-Magic...it balanced itself

[Steelcan]

Does anyone else understand what Qistina is saying, because I sure as hell don't.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Does anyone else understand what Qistina is saying, because I sure as hell don't.

I believe so. The templars are using an unnecessary perversion of magic derived through consumption of toxic substances instead of allowing magic to be controlled through the antimagic spells that mages can use.

[Boycott Bioware]

Alright i simplified

Solona : So the Templars using Magic themselves? (it means Spirit School Anti-Magic)
Alistair : You can say that sure, but the Chantry don't look at it that way (because we are using miracles), however, my ability only work on Mages....

See that?

Anti-Magic is miracle, Anti-Magic is Spirit School branch...the Chantry deny Templar using magic because it is not magic, the same time demonize Mages...while Mages themselves can do the very same thing as Templars do

Edit : in which making the Templar existence is NOT NEEDED

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:58 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

If templars regulating templars get everyone into a frenzy, why is it that mages regulating mages is somehow seen as better?

[Cainhurst Crow]

And no, anti magic isn't a miracle, it's application based on empirical observation of other events. Destructive interference is very easy to observe, it wouldn't be hard to apply the concept to magic.

There is no need for miracles or spirits here. Same with the templars using basic forms of magic varients that csnt be extended to blood magic.

[Iakus]

The whole problem with the mage/templar conflict, be it the Circle system, Tevinter magisters, and the Chantry itself, comes down to

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

The whole problem with the mage/templar conflict, be it the Circle system, Tevinter magisters, and the Chantry itself, comes down to

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The best answer to which, of course, is "the people they watch." Of course, even in our own society, this isn't perfectly enforced, or even enforced all that well, but it does seem to be the ideal.

[Boycott Bioware]

Anti-Magic or Miracle is neutralizing magic, and it's a part of "Magic" that is "the gift of the Maker" to mankind or elfkind or whatever-kind

Chantry is just jealous, they claim the Maker have abandon the world, and darkspawn is because of Mages, they demonize Mages, they ignore every sign the Maker given of their wrongness....they oppress Mages that is the Maker creation, they thought the Maker is unwise, not all-knowing of His own creation

And then the Maker sent His children named Justice to teach the Chantry through Anders.....

So Anders is like Jesus with Holy Spirit

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

The whole problem with the mage/templar conflict, be it the Circle system, Tevinter magisters, and the Chantry itself, comes down to

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The best answer to which, of course, is "the people they watch." Of course, even in our own society, this isn't perfectly enforced, or even enforced all that well, but it does seem to be the ideal.

You're right that even in RL it isn't perfectly enforced.

However, RL generally doesn't involve people who can set fire to people/objects with their minds, demonic possession, and human (or elven) sacrifice.

It amy be a simple answer to say "let mages police themselves" and it's certainly an ideal solution.  But the Tevinter Imperium also shows us that this certainly isn't a perfect solution.  And is potentially as bad as letting the Chantry run things.

In the end, Thedas may have to settle for the "best imperfect" solution, whatever that may be.  At least until the Veil can be properly patched and effective countermeasures to blood magic can be found.  Even then, there will always be mage equivalents to Magneto running around.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

The whole problem with the mage/templar conflict, be it the Circle system, Tevinter magisters, and the Chantry itself, comes down to

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The best answer to which, of course, is "the people they watch." Of course, even in our own society, this isn't perfectly enforced, or even enforced all that well, but it does seem to be the ideal.

You're right that even in RL it isn't perfectly enforced.

However, RL generally doesn't involve people who can set fire to people/objects with their minds, demonic possession, and human (or elven) sacrifice.

It amy be a simple answer to say "let mages police themselves" and it's certainly an ideal solution.  But the Tevinter Imperium also shows us that this certainly isn't a perfect solution.  And is potentially as bad as letting the Chantry run things.

In the end, Thedas may have to settle for the "best imperfect" solution, whatever that may be.  At least until the Veil can be properly patched and effective countermeasures to blood magic can be found.  Even then, there will always be mage equivalents to Magneto running around.

As of now, there are no Circles and expecting anyone to enforce their rules during this war seems... very, very unlikely. And supporting the templars in their war is simply monstrous. I don't think setting up a new system can be done except in peacetime.