810 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

Steelcan wrote...
Based on your posts I'd say English isn't your first language, if that's the case do try and avoid sarcasm.

If English is your first language I'd like to know who taught you to speak it because you got shafted.

I thought everyone know English is not my language...but i can understand English very well, just don't use the slang or jargon

The world is my teacher, i am the student of life...there are things that can be understand even by not spoken any word...

Modifié par Qistina, 29 octobre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Star fury]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Just because we don't see it doesn't mean they're not teaching them. They don't mention the Harrowing but they're told of how dangerous the Fade and it denizens are.
What, you want the First Enchanter to enter the Fade with them and hold their hand then tell them all the nasty things that demon over there is gonna do to them?

Nope, unless it's not presented in the game or at least in Gaider's books(majority of players still don't read them), it doesn't happen. Headcanon is nice and so on... 

[CroGamer002]

Steelcan wrote...

Can I get some of whatever it is you are smoking?

No, you're not allowed.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:02 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

There is NO TIME in the Fade

That is why Alistair see "they put demon into her, she can't resist, so we have to end it quickly"

For us who enter the Fade, we feel it is long, but peoples who see us, it just seconds until we become abomination

It's time relativity

So...they put demons into the apprentice dream/Fade....

[Wulfram]

I wouldn't rely on Alistair to be speaking in exactly the right technical way.

[Star fury]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Training a Mage is more akin to training a soldier than teaching a student. Simply because if you don't pass your English Lit test, you don't die. The same cannot be said of a soldier... or a Mage. 

You can put a hundred soldiers through basic training, teaching them everything they need to know about battle, survival and sheer determination. Of those hundred, when they are deployed, some will die. Others will become expert markman, fantastic tacticians, born leaders or covert geniuses. Point being - the same training won't yield the same results with different people. Some will fail, simply due to the fact that you are dealing with life and death. But, unlike a soldier, there is no option to go to war with a Mage - they are at war with the very nature of the world. 

If no training was given, the mage runs the risk of dying or harming others. Those who point at such systems as the Keepers, various Apostates and the Rivani Seers fail to understand a simple fact - one on one training will always be more effective. The Circle's job is how to teach a large group of individuals, all at once and to make sure as many of them succeed as possible.

Also, teaching willpower is such an abstract commandment it might as well be laughable. What's the tactic there? Teach ethics? It's abundantly apparent that such classes (or religious edict, in a more likely Thedosian scenario) are highly ineffective at actually increasing resistance. Which leads only practical activities. If not throwing them in the Fade, what would you do... make them sit in front of a freshly baked cake for hours in end and not let them take a bite?

Again, no sane commander ever puts one single recruit without a warning in a life and death situation, "trial by fire" by Irving's words, against a an experienced battle-hardened veteran. 

It's funny how people defend Circle and the Harrowing practice by saying "but but mages are too many in human kingdoms". Okay, there are too many human (and City Elven?) mages, but somehow it's normal to put ONE mage against demons during the Harrowing. There is a little contradiction - there are too many mages to educate them one on one, but it's okay to throw a SINGLE mage to wolves to see if he/she survives or not. Oh and to waste invaluable lyrium too.      

Malcolm educated Hawke and/or Bethany without Circles or the Harrowing. Dalish elves always do it. If you want to do a military analogy - take a squad of apprentices with a senior enchanter to the Harrowing and show them all dangers of the Fade. That would be a correct analogy.

Modifié par Star fury, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:08 .

[Boycott Bioware]

I wouldn't rely on Alistair to be speaking in exactly the right technical way.

It is technical way

The Harrowing is done by the Circle Mages, the Templar only watch the process

The Fade is your dream, when your dreaming, it can be million of years you being in the dream but just 8 hours in your real life

That what happen...Alistair only see it maybe seconds before the girl got possessed...but in the Fade that girl maybe going through some time getting lost and dealing with the demons....

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

I wouldn't rely on Alistair to be speaking in exactly the right technical way.

....You don't have to be speaking in "exactly the right technical way" to get that there's a huge difference between being thrown into the Fade, and having a demon pulled out of the Fade and placed inside you.  I don't think you could accidentally give the impression of one while meaning the other. 

There's no way really to reconcile his statement here with the rest of the lore about the Harrowing--not unlike his statement on the question of whether lyrium is necessary for lyrium abilities.  You pretty much have to pretend it simply doesn't exist.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

[LOLandStuff]

How am I headcanoning something that might be quite obvious?
I guess nobody in Thedas does any nr1 or nr2 because I saw no privy or heard of it. They'll just have to hold it until Gaider says they actually do exist and people use them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Again, no sane commander ever puts one single recruit without a warning in a life and death situation, "trial by fire" by Irving's words, against a an experienced battle-hardened veteran. 

That is a luxury many combat situations do not have. The enemy doesn't telegraph you to say, "Hey, we're going to be attacking you now, so get ready here, here, and here." You get ambushed, have to survive, orginize, and fight back, and hopefully survive through the encounter and take down enemy numbers as you do so.

In basic training, when you've moved up enough to enter into simulated combat training or whatever they call it, it is not unheard of for you to be given a mock objective, only for the instructors to lay out an ambush, or a simulated IED situation, or even a sniper taking out the commanding officer, to test if the recruits have learned enough to cope with the unexpected and worst case scenarios.

There are tiers to the training I believe, which is what mages learn when they first go into the circle systesm. It's why there are apprentices and mages and enchanters and senior enchanters. It's a ranking structure to show when they are ready for the next level of progress and when they aren't. The entire time mages spend as apprentices is to give them training, and hopefully show they're ready to become real mages.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Wulfram]

Silfren wrote...

....You don't have to be speaking in "exactly the right technical way" to get that there's a huge difference between being thrown into the Fade, and having a demon pulled out of the Fade and placed inside you.  I don't think you could accidentally give the impression of one while meaning the other. 

There's no way really to reconcile his statement here with the rest of the lore about the Harrowing--not unlike his statement on the question of whether lyrium is necessary for lyrium abilities.  You pretty much have to pretend it simply doesn't exist.

I don't see how Alistair would be in a position to see the difference between a demon being summoned to near the Apprentice in the fade and then possessing them, and the demon being placed inside the apprentice.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That is a luxury many combat situations do not have. The enemy doesn't telegraph you to say, "Hey, we're going to be attacking you now, so get ready here, here, and here." You get ambushed, have to survive, orginize, and fight back, and hopefully survive through the encounter and take down enemy numbers as you do so.

I missed something or do templars and senior mages make the Harrowing while they simultaneously fight demons? I haven't seen Gregoir and Irving desperately fighting demons while they send you in the Magi Origin. Could be wrong though.

Modifié par Star fury, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:17 .

[Hellion Rex]

Wulfram wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....You don't have to be speaking in "exactly the right technical way" to get that there's a huge difference between being thrown into the Fade, and having a demon pulled out of the Fade and placed inside you.  I don't think you could accidentally give the impression of one while meaning the other. 

There's no way really to reconcile his statement here with the rest of the lore about the Harrowing--not unlike his statement on the question of whether lyrium is necessary for lyrium abilities.  You pretty much have to pretend it simply doesn't exist.

I don't see how Alistair would be in a position to see the difference between a demon being summoned to near the Apprentice in the fade and then possessing them, and the demon being placed inside the apprentice.

Also, if Templars were running the test, how in the world could they actually place a demon inside an apprentice? And I hardly think that if a First Enchanter was nearby they would allow or help to do such a thing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Wulfram wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....You don't have to be speaking in "exactly the right technical way" to get that there's a huge difference between being thrown into the Fade, and having a demon pulled out of the Fade and placed inside you.  I don't think you could accidentally give the impression of one while meaning the other. 

There's no way really to reconcile his statement here with the rest of the lore about the Harrowing--not unlike his statement on the question of whether lyrium is necessary for lyrium abilities.  You pretty much have to pretend it simply doesn't exist.

I don't see how Alistair would be in a position to see the difference between a demon being summoned to near the Apprentice in the fade and then possessing them, and the demon being placed inside the apprentice.

There is also the fact that in the mage origin, we see first hand what the harrowing is like. So I would take that experience over what alister said as the fact of the matter.

[Hellion Rex]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That is a luxury many combat situations do not have. The enemy doesn't telegraph you to say, "Hey, we're going to be attacking you now, so get ready here, here, and here." You get ambushed, have to survive, orginize, and fight back, and hopefully survive through the encounter and take down enemy numbers as you do so.

I missed something or do templars and senior mages make the Harrowing while they simultaneously fight demons? I haven't seen Gregoir and Irving desperately fighting demons while they send you in the Magi Origin. Could be wrong though.

No, the First Enchanter opens the portal and transports you to the Fade. The templars and the Enchanter stay in the real world to wait for results.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

I should think that being a trainee hardly means he wouldn't be part of a Harrowing--that would be a natural part of training, no?

Anyway, again, it's in one of his dialogue trees about being a templar.  I dug around a bit on Youtube but I couldn't fine the relevant one, and I can't remember which dialogue option yields that conversation, sorry.  But yes, he discusses what happened when he was one of the templars standing watch on a mage girl during her Harrowing.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

In basic training, when you've moved up enough to enter into simulated combat training or whatever they call it, it is not unheard of for you to be given a mock objective, only for the instructors to lay out an ambush, or a simulated IED situation, or even a sniper taking out the commanding officer, to test if the recruits have learned enough to cope with the unexpected and worst case scenarios.

There are tiers to the training I believe, which is what mages learn when they first go into the circle systesm. It's why there are apprentices and mages and enchanters and senior enchanters. It's a ranking structure to show when they are ready for the next level of progress and when they aren't. The entire time mages spend as apprentices is to give them training, and hopefully show they're ready to become real mages.

Yes, but military commanders don't put green recruits against actual enemies during training. For example they don't take promising rookie against a captured enemy veteran who can and many times will kill a recruit in reality. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That is a luxury many combat situations do not have. The enemy doesn't telegraph you to say, "Hey, we're going to be attacking you now, so get ready here, here, and here." You get ambushed, have to survive, orginize, and fight back, and hopefully survive through the encounter and take down enemy numbers as you do so.

I missed something or do templars and senior mages make the Harrowing while they simultaneously fight demons? I haven't seen Gregoir and Irving desperately fighting demons while they send you in the Magi Origin. Could be wrong though.

Do you honestly think that when recruits finally make it onto the battlefield, that everything just goes according to plan and things don't deviate? This harrowing is pretty much a real combat situation for the mage, about as real as it can possibly get. This will be what it really is like when a demon comes to try and enter you body, because it actually is what's going on.

And if they can't resist the demon, then they wouldn't have been able to deal with the actual situation in the first place, and whether it be that night or years from now, they would still become an abomination. Difference here however is that it'll be an abomination surronded by templars, ready to kill it before it starts going on a killing spree or takes over an entire vast area using it's demonic powers.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

In basic training, when you've moved up enough to enter into simulated combat training or whatever they call it, it is not unheard of for you to be given a mock objective, only for the instructors to lay out an ambush, or a simulated IED situation, or even a sniper taking out the commanding officer, to test if the recruits have learned enough to cope with the unexpected and worst case scenarios.

There are tiers to the training I believe, which is what mages learn when they first go into the circle systesm. It's why there are apprentices and mages and enchanters and senior enchanters. It's a ranking structure to show when they are ready for the next level of progress and when they aren't. The entire time mages spend as apprentices is to give them training, and hopefully show they're ready to become real mages.

Yes, but military commanders don't put green recruits against actual enemies during training. For example they don't take promising rookie against a captured enemy veteran who can and many times will kill a recruit in reality. 

If you've spent years as an apprentice, you're not green. The whole part before the harrowing? That's your training, to make you no longer green. That whole large chunk of time shouldn't just dissapear when you take your harrowing. If it does, I would dare say you were never going to be ready in the first place, and this is saving the lives of everyone around you.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you honestly think that when recruits finally make it onto the battlefield, that everything just goes according to plan and things don't deviate? This harrowing is pretty much a real combat situation for the mage, about as real as it can possibly get. This will be what it really is like when a demon comes to try and enter you body, because it actually is what's going on.

And if they can't resist the demon, then they wouldn't have been able to deal with the actual situation in the first place, and whether it be that night or years from now, they would still become an abomination. Difference here however is that it'll be an abomination surronded by templars, ready to kill it before it starts going on a killing spree or takes over an entire vast area using it's demonic powers.

By your logic it's okay to take a conscripted recruit and put him against an experienced POW enemy soldier/officer who had countless battles under his belt and to let them fight. If recruit is killed by his enemy, tough luck, he should've been better prepared. Oh and let's send that newbie without a warning too. Charming.

Modifié par Star fury, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

Silfren wrote...

....You don't have to be speaking in "exactly the right technical way" to get that there's a huge difference between being thrown into the Fade, and having a demon pulled out of the Fade and placed inside you.  I don't think you could accidentally give the impression of one while meaning the other. 

There's no way really to reconcile his statement here with the rest of the lore about the Harrowing--not unlike his statement on the question of whether lyrium is necessary for lyrium abilities.  You pretty much have to pretend it simply doesn't exist.

I don't see how Alistair would be in a position to see the difference between a demon being summoned to near the Apprentice in the fade and then possessing them, and the demon being placed inside the apprentice.

I don't think it's a matter of a templar being able to see the difference as templars simply KNOWING the particulars of what the Harrowing entails.  Templars who've been taught would know whether the Harrowing involves inserting a demon inside a mage's body, or sending the mage into the Fade to face demons.  It's got nothing to do with interpreting what they see, but what they KNOW about the ritual.

Regardless, my point here isn't to quibble over this.  I don't think it's worth the effort to defend that scene and try to re-interpret it so that it somehow stops being a contradiction.  It IS a contradiction, one that can't adequately be hand-waved away.  I brought it up only to point out that for all of its being a throwaway line of dialogue, it is the reason why some people would raise the question of whether the Harrowing involves pacing demons inside mages...that's not some crackpot idea they get from not understanding the lore; it's in a main character's dialogue.

[The Hierophant]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you honestly think that when recruits finally make it onto the battlefield, that everything just goes according to plan and things don't deviate? This harrowing is pretty much a real combat situation for the mage, about as real as it can possibly get. This will be what it really is like when a demon comes to try and enter you body, because it actually is what's going on.

And if they can't resist the demon, then they wouldn't have been able to deal with the actual situation in the first place, and whether it be that night or years from now, they would still become an abomination. Difference here however is that it'll be an abomination surronded by templars, ready to kill it before it starts going on a killing spree or takes over an entire vast area using it's demonic powers.

By your logic it's okay to take a conscripted recruit and put him against an experienced POW enemy soldier/officer who had countless battles under his belt and to let them fight. If recruit is killed by his enemy, tough luck, he should've been better prepared. Oh and let's send that newbie without a warning too. Charming.

Demons constantly seek out mages. If a mage can't resist a demon while they're unprepared then they're a liability.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do you honestly think that when recruits finally make it onto the battlefield, that everything just goes according to plan and things don't deviate? This harrowing is pretty much a real combat situation for the mage, about as real as it can possibly get. This will be what it really is like when a demon comes to try and enter you body, because it actually is what's going on.

And if they can't resist the demon, then they wouldn't have been able to deal with the actual situation in the first place, and whether it be that night or years from now, they would still become an abomination. Difference here however is that it'll be an abomination surronded by templars, ready to kill it before it starts going on a killing spree or takes over an entire vast area using it's demonic powers.

By your logic it's okay to take a conscripted recruit and put him against an experienced POW enemy soldier/officer who had countless battles under his belt and to let them fight. If recruit is killed by his enemy, tough luck, he should've been better prepared. Oh and let's send that newbie without a warning too. Charming.

You really have no idea how mages are trained, do you? They spend years in the circle learning, practicing, training, and all of it so they unknowningly become ready to take the harrowing. One doesn't just immediately get put through a harrowing as soon as they arrived. There are no 8 year olds getting thrust into the fade ot fight demons. You apprentice under trained mages and enchanters for years before you're actually considered for a harrowing. Or if you're an apostate whose managed to survive for a long time without formal training, an exception circumstance such as bethany, you're given a harrowing probably because you've demonstrated the qualities of a mage, but still need to go through the actual process of proving yourself.

And mages who wouldn't have managed to pass their harrowing, having been deemed as such by the senior enchanter, are made tranquil. The knight commander get's the senior enchanter's approval to do this, as is what happened in the ferelden circle and jowan. So you wouldn't be facing down that POW if you weren't thought ot be ready to actually do it.