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[Sharn01]

Chaos Hammer wrote...



The Circle was the best solution, and while they have been dissolved, they were the only workable solution and best protected the freedom and the lives of the majority and taught the mages how to control the immense power at their disposal.

This part of your post is the actual problem.  There is a belief that since they have a system that works for the Chantry and non-mages, there is no reason to try and make things better for the mages.  I would imagine if reform within the circle was possible to make it run better for all parties involved the split could have been avoided.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Star fury wrote...

"Try again" what? I'm not going to refute your headcanon.

Oh?
So the Dalish loosing one clan to a crazed Keepers curse (Zahrian) is headcanon?
A second clan almost destroyed by an abomination is also headcanon?
Dalish clans someimtes dissapearing wihout a trace is also headcanon?

The Chasind tribes being too few, too broken and too irrelevant to be of any consideration in the geoplitical scale?

Tell me, what isn't headcanon then?

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

The Circle system is not middle ground. This is middle ground: *snip*

Nope.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 22 octobre 2013 - 11:29 .

[Star fury]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So the Dalish loosing one clan to a crazed Keepers curse (Zahrian) is headcanon?

No. The Dalish elves neither lose one clan to a curse nor to a blood magic.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A second clan almost destroyed by an abomination is also headcanon?

No. Second clan is not destroyed by an abomination, by blood magic.

In case you haven't played both games, player CAN destroy both clans and it is NOT a canon. The blood magic have nothing to do with slaughtering two Dalish clans, it can be committed by the player only.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dalish clans someimtes dissapearing wihout a trace is also headcanon?

 

Yes. Yes, it is.

Modifié par Star fury, 22 octobre 2013 - 11:45 .

[Sir DeLoria]

 Dalish? Chasind? Irrelevant little parties with barely any political or military power. 
'Tis a lot of fun, slaughtering the Dalish in DA:O;)

[Medhia Nox]

@Star Fury: Zathrian is destroying his clan before you arrive.

"If" the game is about choosing between allying with these various groups - my particular Inquisition is probably going to have a rough go of it.

The Templars, and notable the Red Templars, are going to have to be stopped and put into place. I predict I'll likely have to kill their figureheads and reorganize the entire faction (if even possible) before bringing them to heel and making them useful.

====

The mages rebellion likewise needs to be stamped out. Blood mages are useless against demons (Hunger Demon to Avernus - so don't bother arguing the "lore") and there IS a codex that says blood mages are even more susceptible to possession (don't care who doesn't believe it - I'm not wasting my time looking for it.)

But once the ringleaders submit or are killed off - the blood mages and abominations are rooted out - the mages can be properly put into service.

====

If the Qunari are involved - I'm not sure if they'll fit in well. Unless it's Tal Vashoth mercs.

In which case - I really don't see any issue with them... unless rampant hedonism and lack of ability to take orders proves a problem - then I'll have to probably ignore or defeat them.

=====

Dalish seem useless to me except to maybe assassinate figureheads of other groups... or maybe provide some looking glasses, albino reindeer or fancy wagons.

They can join, I'll even attempt to make a place for them at the end of the game for their loyalty, but I won't bend over backward to please a group of vagrants who don't understand that to truly carve out a nation you're going to need to manipulate the existing power - not rage against it.

-----

Tevinter - it would depend. I despise everything I know about Tevinter. If new information comes to light - and the morons don't want to slave trade my Dalish - then maybe we can work on something.

-----

The goal is to close these portals and wipe out the demons. I'll play politics only so far as I need to - to get what I want as quickly as possible. If killing a few leaders is the best way to achieve that - so be it.

[Senya]

I will use the Inquisition to create a Middle Ground. If the Mages and Templars submit, great. If not, they will be made to.

[Aremce]

almostinsane99 wrote...

I will use the Inquisition to create a Middle Ground. If the Mages and Templars submit, great. If not, they will be made to.

Well, I guess I'll do the same thing. There has to be a way to make them work together.
(and if it is to kill off everyone who disagrees, then so be it)

[snackrat]

Hopefully DAI will be more.. flexible with the issue, because currently the support options have been:
Templars: mages are scary and dangerous! Demons blargh! They not like normal people because ABOMINATIONS (grrr, argh)
Mages: The Chantry are oppressing real people! They only blood because IMPRISONMENT

At least we have Vivienne being 'Circle', but my Hawkes/Wardens have attempted following stances:
(Dwarf warden): Circle: I don't know what all this is. All I hear are horror stories. You don't let those people run around right? You'd protect us? (Assumption: templar, but only out of ignorance, not because mages are dangerous ****s)
(Many chars): Circle: ...just remember you're there to protect the mages from the outside, and themselves, not try and convince all the scared cattle they 'safely locked up'. Stop treating them like prisoners, let their family visit and stuff, damn. Just make it a university/asylum (Assumption: templar, despite being ultimately mage support)
(Many chars): 'Soft' templar: The circle is a boarding school. Teach mages to control themselves and resist temptation. Teach them discipline and self-control. (and stop saying 'do what we say or we'll lop your head off') (Assumption: templar again, despite being very pro-mage)

Is seems a lot of pro-mage stuff is less about making sure they have rights and more just pretending they are normal people who don't sometimes accidentally set stuff on fire or get tricked by demons.
It's like saying "they're not retards/disabled/sick, they're people just like us" and proving it by giving them absolutely no support whatsoever because, hey, us people don't need it and they're people too right?

A lot of the mages we've seen have-- look, even Orsino: "The irony is that until now I hadn't used blood magic!" ~myeh
DUDE IT ISN'T ABOUT mages who use it to brew their tea faster or kill with more badass animations. IT'S ABOUT DOING IT, EVER
...and that INCLUDES if your life is in jeopardy, because any mage that runs to demons in ANY circumstance has proven that, yes, there ARE circumstances where they'd turn to demons for power. (You all get Fs in mage freedom.) So showing 'mage rights' as 'everyone gets a free pass until otherwise' is a system that is GUARANTEED to fail.

Hopefully Vivienne will provide a balance for that, by showing you can be pro-mage without deciding to let a whole lot of ultimately flawed, selfish, self-preserving hominids out in the world unnoticed and unobserved to maybe hopefully not demons.
Hell airports don't let you carry on too much water or nail clippers or w/e because of the 0.0000001% of people that might be nefarious with it - how are templars supposed to be different when gameplay experience shows that the VAST MAJORITY of mages will use blood magic at the point of desperation (self-preservation or otherwise)?

Not really pro-templar either. Circle should be a university to learn magic, as well as an asylum from ignorant mobs outside of it. They should be allowed outside, and families should visit. Mages should be documented same way we are now (birth certificates and records and etc) - so if something goes awry its easier to handle. After they pass their Mage Exams (currently the Harrowing, if you like) maybe they can have free rein so long as there is a chantry with an active templar they report to like twice a week or something, I don't know (I don't think there is an ideal solution to what is ultimately an argument of Freedom vs Security). And if they're making a trip they make plans that way and report to a different outpost during that period?

GUYS LOOK ARE ALL THE CAPS [b]AND BOLD TAGS[/b}
Super serious you guys
Rrrr mages

[Senya]

The goal is to protect the common people, after all.

[Silfren]

Necanor wrote...

 Dalish? Chasind? Irrelevant little parties with barely any political or military power. 
'Tis a lot of fun, slaughtering the Dalish in DA:O;)

The point was that they have free mages among them, without Chantry oversight or templars, and yet they have not been plagued by the sea of problems the Chantry insists must happen anywhere that there are free mages. The lack of political or military relevance has no bearing on that question.

[Senya]

Karsciyin wrote...

Hopefully DAI will be more.. flexible with the issue, because currently the support options have been:
Templars: mages are scary and dangerous! Demons blargh! They not like normal people because ABOMINATIONS (grrr, argh)
Mages: The Chantry are oppressing real people! They only blood because IMPRISONMENT

At least we have Vivienne being 'Circle', but my Hawkes/Wardens have attempted following stances:
(Dwarf warden): Circle: I don't know what all this is. All I hear are horror stories. You don't let those people run around right? You'd protect us? (Assumption: templar, but only out of ignorance, not because mages are dangerous ****s)
(Many chars): Circle: ...just remember you're there to protect the mages from the outside, and themselves, not try and convince all the scared cattle they 'safely locked up'. Stop treating them like prisoners, let their family visit and stuff, damn. Just make it a university/asylum (Assumption: templar, despite being ultimately mage support)
(Many chars): 'Soft' templar: The circle is a boarding school. Teach mages to control themselves and resist temptation. Teach them discipline and self-control. (and stop saying 'do what we say or we'll lop your head off') (Assumption: templar again, despite being very pro-mage)

Is seems a lot of pro-mage stuff is less about making sure they have rights and more just pretending they are normal people who don't sometimes accidentally set stuff on fire or get tricked by demons.
It's like saying "they're not retards/disabled/sick, they're people just like us" and proving it by giving them absolutely no support whatsoever because, hey, us people don't need it and they're people too right?

A lot of the mages we've seen have-- look, even Orsino: "The irony is that until now I hadn't used blood magic!" ~myeh
DUDE IT ISN'T ABOUT mages who use it to brew their tea faster or kill with more badass animations. IT'S ABOUT DOING IT, EVER
...and that INCLUDES if your life is in jeopardy, because any mage that runs to demons in ANY circumstance has proven that, yes, there ARE circumstances where they'd turn to demons for power. (You all get Fs in mage freedom.) So showing 'mage rights' as 'everyone gets a free pass until otherwise' is a system that is GUARANTEED to fail.

Hopefully Vivienne will provide a balance for that, by showing you can be pro-mage without deciding to let a whole lot of ultimately flawed, selfish, self-preserving hominids out in the world unnoticed and unobserved to maybe hopefully not demons.
Hell airports don't let you carry on too much water or nail clippers or w/e because of the 0.0000001% of people that might be nefarious with it - how are templars supposed to be different when gameplay experience shows that the VAST MAJORITY of mages will use blood magic at the point of desperation (self-preservation or otherwise)?

Not really pro-templar either. Circle should be a university to learn magic, as well as an asylum from ignorant mobs outside of it. They should be allowed outside, and families should visit. Mages should be documented same way we are now (birth certificates and records and etc) - so if something goes awry its easier to handle. After they pass their Mage Exams (currently the Harrowing, if you like) maybe they can have free rein so long as there is a chantry with an active templar they report to like twice a week or something, I don't know (I don't think there is an ideal solution to what is ultimately an argument of Freedom vs Security). And if they're making a trip they make plans that way and report to a different outpost during that period?

GUYS LOOK ARE ALL THE CAPS [b]AND BOLD TAGS[/b}
Super serious you guys
Rrrr mages

Quit sounding so reasonable! :blink:

[Jaison1986]

Silfren wrote...

Necanor wrote...

 Dalish? Chasind? Irrelevant little parties with barely any political or military power. 
'Tis a lot of fun, slaughtering the Dalish in DA:O;)

The point was that they have free mages among them, without Chantry oversight or templars, and yet they have not been plagued by the sea of problems the Chantry insists must happen anywhere that there are free mages. The lack of political or military relevance has no bearing on that question.

You just need to look at Rivain. they had an circle tower were mages were taught to control their powers and learn new spells, yet, they were allowed to leave the circle to pay visits to family members an mingle with society, and yet, Rivain wasn't overrun by abominations neither controlled by power hungry blood mages. Even their Templars seem to care very little for what the mages did as long as they didn't caused any trouble. The Circle is necessary, but the Chantry needs to go. Permanently.

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Necanor wrote...

 Dalish? Chasind? Irrelevant little parties with barely any political or military power. 
'Tis a lot of fun, slaughtering the Dalish in DA:O;)

The point was that they have free mages among them, without Chantry oversight or templars, and yet they have not been plagued by the sea of problems the Chantry insists must happen anywhere that there are free mages. The lack of political or military relevance has no bearing on that question.

You just need to look at Rivain. they had an circle tower were mages were taught to control their powers and learn new spells, yet, they were allowed to leave the circle to pay visits to family members an mingle with society, and yet, Rivain wasn't overrun by abominations neither controlled by power hungry blood mages. Even their Templars seem to care very little for what the mages did as long as they didn't caused any trouble. The Circle is necessary, but the Chantry needs to go. Permanently.

Then a visiting Seeker found out and the Circle was annuled, without going through the proper channesl (has to be ordered by the Grand Cleric) and without an real authorization, beyond a Seeker's demand.

[t0mm06]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

I wouldnt say it is a direct parallel, i mean youc hoose to have a gun you dont choose to be a mage.

[Navasha]

The best solution would be to have circles, but instead of them being prisons where mages are locked away and abused by their captors, you would have it an "honor" to be a mage.

A great analogy would be the Star Wars Jedi Academy. When you think about it... Jedi are the "mages" of Star Wars. They are taken from their families at a young age to be trained. However, Jedi are not treated like criminals. They are taught how to use their power the right way. Sure some fail and turn to the "dark side". However, the exact same system is seen in a completely different light.

The problem is the Chantry has deemed magic a "curse" not a "gift". Mages are taught to feel guilty over their power and common people are taught to fear them. The Chantry has largely destroyed any chance at a middle ground.

[dragonflight288]

t0mm06 wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

I wouldnt say it is a direct parallel, i mean youc hoose to have a gun you dont choose to be a mage.

True. It's more along the lines of having a few more rights, but also accepting the risks that go with them, compared to giving up those rights in favor of more security.

[t0mm06]

wcholcombe wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Much of the trouble in this regard seems to be relatively recent. It is the product of extremism on both sides. Primarily, Templars tightening down significantly on rights and freedoms the mages had been used to having, while at the same time Mages refusing to be satisfied with the freedoms they previously enjoyed. Partially I think the whole fight is largely unrealistic. Mages, who largely grow up in Andraste nations, would be aware of the dangers they present. Rhys was raised in a Chantry and than in the Tower, while there would be no need for him to hate himself for being a mage, he should also be fully aware of the dangers that would be presented by just letting mages run around Thedas willy nilly. Both to themselves and others.

I say all that to say this, I think the primary reason for all the issues is the conflict between hard line Templars digging their heels in while removing from power those who are sympathetic or understanding to mages and mages taking a no compromise attitude-both examples seen in Asunder-- with no recourse for both groups to take when at an impasse. The 1st enchanter of each tower is still subservient to the will of the Knight Commander, while if the Knight Commander is understanding to the Mages, he never gives them enough and risks being replaced by his order. There needs to be a 3rd party(Inquisitor?) in each tower who can sit down with the KC and the 1st enchanter and come to a concensus on issues facing the tower. Majority vote that is accepted by both sides.

The idea of having phylacteries and allowing mages to wander as they will won't work. You are putting to many people at risk if a Mage suddenly succumbs or is attacked by a mob before the Templars can get there to put down said mage or save him from said mob.

To say that the argument is unrealistic is.... uninformed, its a direct parallel to the current Gun control argument in America

I don't follow that logic.  Rhys at no point recognizes the danger that is presented by mages having their freedom even though he was raised in an environment that would have fully informed him of the dangers magic presented.

The parrallel to your Gun Control example would be if President Obama's daughters came out in favor of making Automatic weapons available to the general public without background checks.

I don't have a problem with Rhys and others straining against their bonds as it were, but the fact that none of them ever mention the inherent danger that they as mages poss is odd to me.

That is neither here nor there though.  I still think the 3rd party tribunal system would solve a lot of the issues in the towers.

Actually several times through out the book Rhys did think that freedom for mages was possibly not the best choice, due to the dangers they can posess. Also its clear from Rhys stance throughout the book that he is not in fact anti circle, he is anti abuse. (his relationship with evangeline shows that he is not anti templar, and in fact says that if they were all like her then the circle probably wouldnt be in the mess it is in)

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: I know the point you're trying to make - but do you want the human mage population cut down to two or three mages per kingdom?

Cause Chasind tribes and Dalish clans have extraordinarily SMALL numbers of mages - easy to police without a special force.

I'm not saying it is THE reason they may not be plagued with problems (we simply don't know) - but I think it's worth not ignoring this fact.

[jtav]

I'm a moderate myself. I don't believe mages should be free, but the templars haven't been doing a very good job of it. I propose a revised Circle system. Assign Seekers to every Circle. Their job is to police the templars and prevent the abuse of mages. Encourage contact between mages and their mundane family, both by letter and visits. There's historical precedent for that. Codify when a RoA may be called for and make it so a clear and present danger must exist. The Kirkwall and Rivain annulments were gross injustices.

But, at the same time, mages must be willing to accept restrictions on their study and movements. They are not like others and can't be treated the same.

[Medhia Nox]

Put the Lucrosians in charge - have the state pay the Lucrosians to police each circle and make sure the mages don't act up.

Nobody betrays coin.

[Sir JK]

Silfren wrote...

The point was that they have free mages among them, without Chantry oversight or templars, and yet they have not been plagued by the sea of problems the Chantry insists must happen anywhere that there are free mages.

This isn't entirely true though. Marethari and Merrill both confirm that abominations do happen among the Dalish as well. And while it's not entirely clear if what Zathrian did was blood magic in the traditional sense, it was certainly an abominable act only possible through magic.

So in that sense, the Dalish model has proven no more safe than the Chantry one. Both models feature abominations and what the Chantry would deem Maleficars (ie. people that use magic to hurt people). The fact that it's up to the local community to stop the mage, should it be proven to be neccessary, in the case of the Dalish model suggest that it's a model incompatible with the majority of Andrastian society. Mostly because, I assume, the average dalish is slightly better at fighting than the average andrastian (you know, with most of them being peasants) but also due to the little tidbit I found here:

Codex: The Right of Annulment
Relevant bit:

Three months later, the mages summoned a demon
and turned it loose against their templar watchers. Demons, however,
are not easily controlled. After killing the first wave of templars who
tried to contain it, the demon took possession of one of its summoners. The resulting abomination slaughtered templars and mages both before escaping into the countryside.
The Grand Cleric
sent a legion of templars to hunt the fugitive. They killed the
abomination a year later, but by that time it had slain 70 people.

Note the pronoun for the demon/abomination. It's singular. A single one killed an entire tower of mages, who were prepared, the templar surrounding them, also prepared, broke out of a siege, fled into the wilderness, killed another 70 and took a legion of templars a year to track down.

The Dalish model may have it's advantages, but it's at best questionable whether it's applicable on andrastian society (with it's much greater population) as a whole. That's not taking into account whether it's affected by societal status or not either.

---

As for the middle ground (the main topic). As per usual, when it really boils down to it... it's not motive that the various sides really object to. I sincerely doubt most mages take issue with the Chantry wanting people to be safe and to ward off tyranny of magic. Much like I doubt the Chantry truly faults the mages for wanting to be treated as people.

It's... as it always is... method that the various sides take issue with. And thus, the root of the conflict.
And as always... when tensions flares people stop listening to the diplomats first. After all... diplomats seek to satisfy both sides (to an extent, they always seek to get the most for their own side) and once you've accepted the notion that satisfying the other side in unacceptable... well... then diplomats are no longer seen as useful.

In essence, to answer the question of the original post. We can't all get along because the sides no longer accept one another's desires as acceptable.

Modifié par Sir JK, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:19 .

[DatOneFanboy]

>Implying that That World should have a middle ground and a solution Just cause its a fantasy.

No this is how it works , You get oppressed,u start a war, and after 10 years when its finished u run the cycle again,

[AlexanderCousland]

Im all for moderation.

This arguement makes me sick though, it reminds me of Republicans VS. Democrats. or almost any other ridiculous issue out there.

[DatOneFanboy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Im all for moderation.

This arguement makes me sick though, it reminds me of Republicans VS. Democrats. or almost any other ridiculous issue out there.

Lol both sides aint sht and they are never going to change sht , Dont even dare to Compare them to Mages and Templars. Comparing those 2 makes Rep & Dems Nonexistant 

[Star fury]

Silfren wrote...

The point was that they have free mages among them, without Chantry oversight or templars, and yet they have not been plagued by the sea of problems the Chantry insists must happen anywhere that there are free mages. The lack of political or military relevance has no bearing on that question.

That's right. Problem can lie in a human nature of Thedas, which is inherently susceptible to demonic temptation, more than elven or qunari. Or problem is with the Mage Circles where crowded mages are both more dangerous when possession chain reaction sets off between them, and it is more problematic for templars to control a big group of magic users.