810 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

Our body didn't get into the Fade, only our mind/soul/conscience whatever you call it

We can save Connor because he's willingly take demon offer, Templar kill apprentice in Harrowing because they are Forcibly become abomination and cannot resist it

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why are we talking about this again?

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You really have no idea how mages are trained, do you? They spend years in the circle learning, practicing, training, and all of it so they unknowningly become ready to take the harrowing. One doesn't just immediately get put through a harrowing as soon as they arrived. There are no 8 year olds getting thrust into the fade ot fight demons. You apprentice under trained mages and enchanters for years before you're actually considered for a harrowing. Or if you're an apostate whose managed to survive for a long time without formal training, an exception circumstance such as bethany, you're given a harrowing probably because you've demonstrated the qualities of a mage, but still need to go through the actual process of proving yourself.

And mages who wouldn't have managed to pass their harrowing, having been deemed as such by the senior enchanter, are made tranquil. The knight commander get's the senior enchanter's approval to do this, as is what happened in the ferelden circle and jowan. So you wouldn't be facing down that POW if you weren't thought ot be ready to actually do it.

Yeah, I agree that reading books in a quiet library gives you enough preparation to fight real demons.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

He was present for one Harrowing as part of his training. He says "The girl, they put a demon inside her, to see if she could resist. She couldn't....we had to....end it quickly. I lost my taste for being a templar after that."

[Hellion Rex]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

You really have no idea how mages are trained, do you? They spend years in the circle learning, practicing, training, and all of it so they unknowningly become ready to take the harrowing. One doesn't just immediately get put through a harrowing as soon as they arrived. There are no 8 year olds getting thrust into the fade ot fight demons. You apprentice under trained mages and enchanters for years before you're actually considered for a harrowing. Or if you're an apostate whose managed to survive for a long time without formal training, an exception circumstance such as bethany, you're given a harrowing probably because you've demonstrated the qualities of a mage, but still need to go through the actual process of proving yourself.

And mages who wouldn't have managed to pass their harrowing, having been deemed as such by the senior enchanter, are made tranquil. The knight commander get's the senior enchanter's approval to do this, as is what happened in the ferelden circle and jowan. So you wouldn't be facing down that POW if you weren't thought ot be ready to actually do it.

Yeah, I agree that reading books in a quiet library gives you enough preparation to fight real demons.

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

He was present for one Harrowing as part of his training. He says "The girl, they put a demon inside her, to see if she could resist. She couldn't....we had to....end it quickly. I lost my taste for being a templar after that."

Ok. I am just chalking that up to him not fully understanding what was going on.

[dragonflight288]

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

[errant_knight]

That, or he thought it better to get the jist across without being too specific, either because the didn't think it was his place to do so or he thought it would make his point more effectively. People aren't always literal in their communication.

[Boycott Bioware]

Why are we talking about this again?

It's a reminder that

i. the solution to save Mages who being tricked into abomination is by entering the Fade and kill the demon
ii. if the Mage forcibly become abomination, the only solution is kill it

Harrowing is FORCING A MAGE TO BECOME ABOMINATION then see if the Mage can resist it, that is why they have to kill the Mage that turn into abomination in Harrowing

The process is PUT DEMON INTO THE MAGE....remember that point, it mean forcing a demon into the Mage

That the lore said...unless it suddenly retconed

So, abomination problem IS NOT a problem really, the Chantry who create that problem and propagate it

Compare both

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

I get that. But I was replying to star fury's post, which suggested that the mages just sit and study all day in the Tower.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What does any of this have to do with a middle ground?

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

I get that. But I was replying to star fury's post, which suggested that the mages just sit and study all day in the Tower.

Oh.

[Cainhurst Crow]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Sounds like a horribly reduntent piece of exposition to shove into a scene, just for the sake of 4th wall audience appeal. Especially since we can find codex entries from books all about demons in the library.

[Boycott Bioware]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
What does any of this have to do with a middle ground?

There is no middle ground, the Chantry must fall

[Boycott Bioware]

Actually Tarohne did the same like what Circle Mage did in Harrowing, the only difference is Tarohne put demon into Templars

That is actually Harrowing of Templar

[Cainhurst Crow]

So you don't want a middle ground. Fine.

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title.

Modifié par BioWareMod03, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:06 .

[HiroVoid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Yes.  I'm sure mages spend their whole lives in the tower never being prepared for how to face demons when the test to become a mage is all about being able to identify and face a demon.

Truthfully, we don't have SOLID evidence of it either way, but considering we see them being tought spells and magic, how to focus, how to have bravery, and other aspects, I'm just taking a complete shot in the dark and saying there MAY have been a time when they were tought about the types of demons and in what ways mages can resist them.  Of course, I suppose there is the possibility that mages have never been taken aside for five minutes to be told to think active thoughts around sloth demons.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Qistina wrote...

Actually Tarohne did the same like what Circle Mage did in Harrowing, the only difference is Tarohne put demon into Templars

That is actually Harrowing of Templar

But the templars don't have an awareness in the fade, so it's not a harrowing. Or at least not a fair harrowing for them since they're essentially left even more defenseless then mages are in their harrowings.

[Star fury]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Excellent point.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

He was present for one Harrowing as part of his training. He says "The girl, they put a demon inside her, to see if she could resist. She couldn't....we had to....end it quickly. I lost my taste for being a templar after that."

Ok. I am just chalking that up to him not fully understanding what was going on.

I seriously doubt that.  I don't think any templars who are part of a Harrowing would misunderstand the practice of sending a mage into the Fade to face a demon as instead being the practice of putting a demon inside a mage.

The entire point of the Harrowing is to see if a mage can resist demons enough to avoid getting possessed at all--and if they do get possessed, execution becomes necessary; at no point does the test involve a mage seeing if they can handle being possessed. 

I don't believe for a moment that a templar deemed ready to stand present at a Harrowing would ever be so ignorant about what's going on that they would misinterpret the one for the other.  It's not at all about seeing a mage lying on the floor and not understanding what's going on--it's about them having knowledge of what the Harrowing entails.  Given that while you're at the Harrowing, the knight commander and first enchanter spell out what's happening, I don't think Alistair could have misunderstood that.

Better to simply disregard the dialogue as something the Devs overlooked than to try to rationalize it in a way that makes even LESS sense.

[dragonflight288]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Sounds like a horribly reduntent piece of exposition to shove into a scene, just for the sake of 4th wall audience appeal. Especially since we can find codex entries from books all about demons in the library.

The least we can do is have a few lines from an enchanter teaching apprentices that we can overhear, or a codex entry that suggests the Circle's teach these sorts of techniques.

We do have codex entries that talk about the various types of demons, but not ones that talk about how resisting them can be made easier, like Merrill's line had done.

But if there's something that I missed entirely that does show this, feel free to post it. I would prefer to talk about information as accurately as possible, rather than deny and obfuscate facts that don't work with my opinions.

[Boycott Bioware]

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

i understand that this thread is about searching middle ground, my whole point is "there is no middle ground"

I can't give my opinion on that?

[HiroVoid]

[quote]Qistina wrote...

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...
What does any of this have to do with a middle ground? [/quote]

There is no middle ground, the Chantry must fall[/quote
So how are you going to convince the majority of Thedas who's religion relates to the Chantry that the chantry must fall?

[errant_knight]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So you don't want a middle ground. Fine.

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

Yes, it would be nice if every thread didn't have to be a pitched battle with exactly the same points being made in each

[Cainhurst Crow]

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:54 .