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[dragonflight288]

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Yes.  I'm sure mages spend their whole lives in the tower never being prepared for how to face demons when the test to become a mage is all about being able to identify and face a demon.

Truthfully, we don't have SOLID evidence of it either way, but considering we see them being tought spells and magic, how to focus, how to have bravery, and other aspects, I'm just taking a complete shot in the dark and saying there MAY have been a time when they were tought about the types of demons and in what ways mages can resist them.  Of course, I suppose there is the possibility that mages have never been taken aside for five minutes to be told to think active thoughts around sloth demons.

Irving: It goes without saying that you will NOT discuss the Harrowing with those who have not undergone the right.

Apprentices have no idea they are going to face demons or be killed, and the knowledge is deliberately kept from them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Qistina wrote...

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

i understand that this thread is about searching middle ground, my whole point is "there is no middle ground"

I can't give my opinion on that?

I think your point derailed the thread.

[Boycott Bioware]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
But the templars don't have an awareness in the fade, so it's not a harrowing. Or at least not a fair harrowing for them since they're essentially left even more defenseless then mages are in their harrowings.

That is why what Tarohne make is "AN EXPERIMENT"...how she success in doing that is a mystery, never being explained in the game, and either we read all Tarohne books or destroy them it didn't give any damned answer

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
In simple word, Horrowing is FORCING apprentice to get possessed, the rest is up to apprentice to resist it

The apprentice isn't possesed and then he fights to throw the demon out.
It doesnt' work that way.

The apprentice and the demon are both in the Fade.
The Demon will try to trick the mage or attack him. If he sucessed, he will posses the mage.

In Mage Origin, there is something happen that is not in anyone suspected. I believe Irving doing something to save his favorite student. The demons and spirit in the fade help the Warden. They are NOT SUPPOSED to be there because apprentice only need to kill a demon, but here there are spirits an demons[/qutoe]

The mages do not control the Fade.
How do you even know who is and who is not supposed to be part of the test?

I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist." 

Probably just a bit of dialogue that nobody really thought through, or was accidentally left in after an initial take on the Harrowing was changed...but it's there.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hang on. I thought Alistair was just a trainee. When was he ever part of a Harrowing?

He was present for one Harrowing as part of his training. He says "The girl, they put a demon inside her, to see if she could resist. She couldn't....we had to....end it quickly. I lost my taste for being a templar after that."

Ok. I am just chalking that up to him not fully understanding what was going on.

I seriously doubt that.  I don't think any templars who are part of a Harrowing would misunderstand the practice of sending a mage into the Fade to face a demon as instead being the practice of putting a demon inside a mage.

The entire point of the Harrowing is to see if a mage can resist demons enough to avoid getting possessed at all--and if they do get possessed, execution becomes necessary; at no point does the test involve a mage seeing if they can handle being possessed. 

I don't believe for a moment that a templar deemed ready to stand present at a Harrowing would ever be so ignorant about what's going on that they would misinterpret the one for the other.  It's not at all about seeing a mage lying on the floor and not understanding what's going on--it's about them having knowledge of what the Harrowing entails.  Given that while you're at the Harrowing, the knight commander and first enchanter spell out what's happening, I don't think Alistair could have misunderstood that.

Better to simply disregard the dialogue as something the Devs overlooked than to try to rationalize it in a way that makes even LESS sense.

Hang on. I am just trying to understand what you are saying in the bolded. Are you advocating that the templars actually did put a demon inside of the apprentice? Or are you just saying that the devs screwed up the dialogue? I am just trying to clarify.

[dragonflight288]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice.

Merrill never got possessed, and Merrill was mind-controlled by a Pride Demon in the Fade, something Isabella, Aveline, Varic and Fenris also can be guilty of.

The devs have made it clear that in the Fade itself, demons have greater power than in the real world, and can mind-control you there, although they prefer to use subtlety and trick you, which (and I'm assuming you're talking about Feynriel) is what they were doing in the first place.

But this isn't a Merrill discussion, so let's dorp the matter there.

[CroGamer002]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice?

Well if you have adorable puppy eyes, not even demons will be able to posses and turn you into abomination.
So she was always safe.

[Chaos Hammer]

errant_knight wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So you don't want a middle ground. Fine.

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

Yes, it would be nice if every thread didn't have to be a pitched battle with exactly the same points being made in each

THANK YOU, the point was to figure out the best way to make a compromise, not create another "MAGES ARE OPPRESSED! WE HATE RELIGION!" vs. "MAGES ARE DANGEROUS AND MUST BE CAGED OR DESTROYED!"  Thread

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Yes.  I'm sure mages spend their whole lives in the tower never being prepared for how to face demons when the test to become a mage is all about being able to identify and face a demon.

Truthfully, we don't have SOLID evidence of it either way, but considering we see them being tought spells and magic, how to focus, how to have bravery, and other aspects, I'm just taking a complete shot in the dark and saying there MAY have been a time when they were tought about the types of demons and in what ways mages can resist them.  Of course, I suppose there is the possibility that mages have never been taken aside for five minutes to be told to think active thoughts around sloth demons.

Irving: It goes without saying that you will NOT discuss the Harrowing with those who have not undergone the right.

Apprentices have no idea they are going to face demons or be killed, and the knowledge is deliberately kept from them.

You know, I'd have like it better if there were some bit of lore about a Harrowed mage having some kind of spell placed on them that prevented them from discussing the Harrowing.  I have never, ever been able to believe that every Harrowed mage is so unlike actual human beings, that in all the years that the Harrowing has been a thing, it hasn't become common knowledge just through the normal channels of human interaction.

[Cainhurst Crow]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice.

Merrill
never got possessed, and Merrill was mind-controlled by a Pride Demon
in the Fade, something Isabella, Aveline, Varic and Fenris also can be
guilty of.

The devs have made it clear that in the Fade itself,
demons have greater power than in the real world, and can mind-control
you there, although they prefer to use subtlety and trick you, which
(and I'm assuming you're talking about Feynriel) is what they were doing
in the first place.

But this isn't a Merrill discussion, so let's dorp the matter there.

This isn't a mage discussion either, to be honest.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:58 .

[HiroVoid]

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Yes.  I'm sure mages spend their whole lives in the tower never being prepared for how to face demons when the test to become a mage is all about being able to identify and face a demon.

Truthfully, we don't have SOLID evidence of it either way, but considering we see them being tought spells and magic, how to focus, how to have bravery, and other aspects, I'm just taking a complete shot in the dark and saying there MAY have been a time when they were tought about the types of demons and in what ways mages can resist them.  Of course, I suppose there is the possibility that mages have never been taken aside for five minutes to be told to think active thoughts around sloth demons.

Irving: It goes without saying that you will NOT discuss the Harrowing with those who have not undergone the right.

Apprentices have no idea they are going to face demons or be killed, and the knowledge is deliberately kept from them.

They know that there are apprentices that never return from a harrowing, so they're well aware of the consequences of failing it.  Jowan was able to make a well educated guess on what the harrowing was based on what he knew about the harrowing.  Not knowing what the harrowing is and never being prepared for demonic possession are two different things.  There's absolutely no reason why the senior mages and templars wouldn't teach them how to deal with demons when it's to their own benefit that mages don't actually get possessed.

[The Elder King]

@dragonflight288: the fact that the apprentices don't know what the Harrowing is about doesn't means that they aren't trained to resist demons. Apprentices know that demons can possess mages, after all.
Though we have no means to know what is the truth, until Bioware devs release the info.

[Hellion Rex]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice.

Merrill
never got possessed, and Merrill was mind-controlled by a Pride Demon
in the Fade, something Isabella, Aveline, Varic and Fenris also can be
guilty of.

The devs have made it clear that in the Fade itself,
demons have greater power than in the real world, and can mind-control
you there, although they prefer to use subtlety and trick you, which
(and I'm assuming you're talking about Feynriel) is what they were doing
in the first place.

But this isn't a Merrill discussion, so let's dorp the matter there.

This isn't a mage discussion either, to be honest.

Yes it is. Mages and Templars, and finding the middle ground between the two.
Read the OP.

Modifié par eluvianix, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Br3admax]

errant_knight wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So you don't want a middle ground. Fine.

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

Yes, it would be nice if every thread didn't have to be a pitched battle with exactly the same points being made in each

We laugh at it now, but one day Qistina's vision will save the world, and we will regret that we did not listen. 

Now, what was this about one government ruling all worlds and the power of Jesus/Anders? 

[HiroVoid]

Silfren wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did you miss the scene in the Magi origin where you see apprentices practicing fire spells and making shields?

I haven't, but my issues with mages training isn't that they teach spells, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the Circle teaches apprentices techniques on how to identify and resist demons.

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

Yes.  I'm sure mages spend their whole lives in the tower never being prepared for how to face demons when the test to become a mage is all about being able to identify and face a demon.

Truthfully, we don't have SOLID evidence of it either way, but considering we see them being tought spells and magic, how to focus, how to have bravery, and other aspects, I'm just taking a complete shot in the dark and saying there MAY have been a time when they were tought about the types of demons and in what ways mages can resist them.  Of course, I suppose there is the possibility that mages have never been taken aside for five minutes to be told to think active thoughts around sloth demons.

Irving: It goes without saying that you will NOT discuss the Harrowing with those who have not undergone the right.

Apprentices have no idea they are going to face demons or be killed, and the knowledge is deliberately kept from them.

You know, I'd have like it better if there were some bit of lore about a Harrowed mage having some kind of spell placed on them that prevented them from discussing the Harrowing.  I have never, ever been able to believe that every Harrowed mage is so unlike actual human beings, that in all the years that the Harrowing has been a thing, it hasn't become common knowledge just through the normal channels of human interaction.

I honestly think most apprentices, like Jowan, can at least guess what the harrowing is considering all they have to think about is the fact they can obviously see failing means dying and the reason for why mages are feared in the first place.

[errant_knight]

Qistina wrote...

But this thread is about a middle ground. It even says so in the title, in plain english, which you claim to understand.

i understand that this thread is about searching middle ground, my whole point is "there is no middle ground"

I can't give my opinion on that?

Certainly. But maybe not repeatedly to the point that no other ideas can be discussed.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice.

Merrill
never got possessed, and Merrill was mind-controlled by a Pride Demon
in the Fade, something Isabella, Aveline, Varic and Fenris also can be
guilty of.

The devs have made it clear that in the Fade itself,
demons have greater power than in the real world, and can mind-control
you there, although they prefer to use subtlety and trick you, which
(and I'm assuming you're talking about Feynriel) is what they were doing
in the first place.

But this isn't a Merrill discussion, so let's dorp the matter there.

This isn't a mage discussion either, to be honest.

Yes it is. Mages and Templars, and finding the middle ground between the two.
Read the OP.

Actually it is only about everyone getting along, not discussing mages or Templars. Read the OP. 

[CroGamer002]

We have problem in this thread discussion, since we are keep bickering on who's to blame for this situation and pointing fingers who's the worst.

We're barely trying to even talk on what middle ground can be.

Modifié par Mesina2, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice.

Merrill
never got possessed, and Merrill was mind-controlled by a Pride Demon
in the Fade, something Isabella, Aveline, Varic and Fenris also can be
guilty of.

The devs have made it clear that in the Fade itself,
demons have greater power than in the real world, and can mind-control
you there, although they prefer to use subtlety and trick you, which
(and I'm assuming you're talking about Feynriel) is what they were doing
in the first place.

But this isn't a Merrill discussion, so let's dorp the matter there.

This isn't a mage discussion either, to be honest.

Yes it is. Mages and Templars, and finding the middle ground between the two.
Read the OP.

Where's the discussion to actually have any sort of peaceful cooperation or compromise at all? All I see are "poor mages, templars are mean" or "magic is a curse, not a blessing".

And of course "Kill all Andrastians"

[errant_knight]

Yes, let's go back to the topic and see what happens.

[Boycott Bioware]

Tarohne experiment is Harrowing, only that it is on Templars

Put demon into Templar instead of put demon into Mage apprentice, it's the same

But unluckily the writer never bother to explain it, the whole scene is just a scene of crazy Blood Mage with funny lipstick going "bluaaaargh!!! I am evil!" and it just a device for Act 2 side quests of finding her books

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

I seriously doubt that.  I don't think any templars who are part of a Harrowing would misunderstand the practice of sending a mage into the Fade to face a demon as instead being the practice of putting a demon inside a mage.

The entire point of the Harrowing is to see if a mage can resist demons enough to avoid getting possessed at all--and if they do get possessed, execution becomes necessary; at no point does the test involve a mage seeing if they can handle being possessed. 

I don't believe for a moment that a templar deemed ready to stand present at a Harrowing would ever be so ignorant about what's going on that they would misinterpret the one for the other.  It's not at all about seeing a mage lying on the floor and not understanding what's going on--it's about them having knowledge of what the Harrowing entails.  Given that while you're at the Harrowing, the knight commander and first enchanter spell out what's happening, I don't think Alistair could have misunderstood that.

Better to simply disregard the dialogue as something the Devs overlooked than to try to rationalize it in a way that makes even LESS sense.

Hang on. I am just trying to understand what you are saying in the bolded. Are you advocating that the templars actually did put a demon inside of the apprentice? Or are you just saying that the devs screwed up the dialogue? I am just trying to clarify.

I'm saying that even though it's pretty well established by the lore that the Harrowing involves sending a mage consciously into the Fade so that they can face and resist a demon, we DO have dialogue wherein it's said that the Harrowing involves putting a demon inside a person.  That's where Qistina's assertion came from, it isn't a gross misunderstanding of the Harrowing, but something directly mentioned in a major character's dialogue.

I DO think the Devs screwed up the dialogue.  Like the thing about Alistair claiming that lyrium is not necessary for templar abilities, I think it  probably reflects a point where the lore was slightly different, but which was inadvertently left unchanged even after the lore was altered. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Qistina wrote...

Tarohne experiment is Harrowing, only that it is on Templars

Put demon into Templar instead of put demon into Mage apprentice, it's the same

But unluckily the writer never bother to explain it, the whole scene is just a scene of crazy Blood Mage with funny lipstick going "bluaaaargh!!! I am evil!" and it just a device for Act 2 side quests of finding her books

Surprising, the rushed, poorly written game had a rushed and poorly written plot in it.

[Br3admax]

Qistina wrote...

Tarohne experiment is Harrowing, only that it is on Templars

Put demon into Templar instead of put demon into Mage apprentice, it's the same

But unluckily the writer never bother to explain it, the whole scene is just a scene of crazy Blood Mage with funny lipstick going "bluaaaargh!!! I am evil!" and it just a device for Act 2 side quests of finding her books

Continue to use the non-Templar as your only source of information even though everything else contradicts him, and he is in no way an expert on the subject. Continue to do this, it really shows how practical you are being. Once a demon is inside of you, there is no Harrowing going on. You can keep quoting Alistair all you want, even though Alistair has been wrong on just about everything from lyrium use to what the Taint actually does. 

[Boycott Bioware]

Br3ad wrote...
Continue to use the non-Templar as your only source of information even though everything else contradicts him, and he is in no way an expert on the subject. Continue to do this, it really shows how practical you are being. Once a demon is inside of you, there is no Harrowing going on. You can keep quoting Alistair all you want, even though Alistair has been wrong on just about everything from lyrium use to what the Taint actually does.

Alistair is not wrong but DA2 not only screw what he said also screw his handsome charming face

[HiroVoid]

So what you're saying is that Alistair is screwed?