810 réponses à ce sujet

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I seriously doubt that.  I don't think any templars who are part of a Harrowing would misunderstand the practice of sending a mage into the Fade to face a demon as instead being the practice of putting a demon inside a mage.

The entire point of the Harrowing is to see if a mage can resist demons enough to avoid getting possessed at all--and if they do get possessed, execution becomes necessary; at no point does the test involve a mage seeing if they can handle being possessed. 

I don't believe for a moment that a templar deemed ready to stand present at a Harrowing would ever be so ignorant about what's going on that they would misinterpret the one for the other.  It's not at all about seeing a mage lying on the floor and not understanding what's going on--it's about them having knowledge of what the Harrowing entails.  Given that while you're at the Harrowing, the knight commander and first enchanter spell out what's happening, I don't think Alistair could have misunderstood that.

Better to simply disregard the dialogue as something the Devs overlooked than to try to rationalize it in a way that makes even LESS sense.

Hang on. I am just trying to understand what you are saying in the bolded. Are you advocating that the templars actually did put a demon inside of the apprentice? Or are you just saying that the devs screwed up the dialogue? I am just trying to clarify.

I'm saying that even though it's pretty well established by the lore that the Harrowing involves sending a mage consciously into the Fade so that they can face and resist a demon, we DO have dialogue wherein it's said that the Harrowing involves putting a demon inside a person.  That's where Qistina's assertion came from, it isn't a gross misunderstanding of the Harrowing, but something directly mentioned in a major character's dialogue.

I DO think the Devs screwed up the dialogue.  Like the thing about Alistair claiming that lyrium is not necessary for templar abilities, I think it  probably reflects a point where the lore was slightly different, but which was inadvertently left unchanged even after the lore was altered. 

Thank you for the clarification.

[Shadow Fox]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

How is it that for all of merrill's knowledge, she wasn't able to resist demonic temptation, twice?

This the other companions being so easily tricked could be explained by them having no experiance in the Fade but Merril's a mage so she should know better or atleast resist it.

[Medhia Nox]

Seeing as we have every indication that DA:I doesn't have the Mage/Templar conflict at the forefront - a middle ground will be easy.

They can join my Inquisition - or they can suffer and risk death on their own. If they decide to get in my way - I'll crush them. If they apply for aid without wanting to put aside their petty differences - they can be crushed by the demons.

I have no time for petty squabbles between fascists and cause-heads.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

That is fairly reasonable. Also, it would perhaps be best for the Templars to separate from the Chantry.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

What...what the heck is all this other stuff?

[CroGamer002]

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

That is fairly reasonable. Also, it would perhaps be best for the Templars to separate from the Chantry.

Wait, the Templar's are the major reason mages rebel.

And they need to get their paychecks and supplies from someone.

[Br3admax]

Qistina wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Continue to use the non-Templar as your only source of information even though everything else contradicts him, and he is in no way an expert on the subject. Continue to do this, it really shows how practical you are being. Once a demon is inside of you, there is no Harrowing going on. You can keep quoting Alistair all you want, even though Alistair has been wrong on just about everything from lyrium use to what the Taint actually does.

Alistair is not wrong but DA2 not only screw what he said also screw his handsome charming face

Except even in DA:O, no one agreed with him. Alistair has been wrong from the beginning about everything. DA:O:A, has called almost everything about what he says wrong. Alistair has no idea what he's talking about in almost every situation since his inception. 

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Br3ad wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Continue to use the non-Templar as your only source of information even though everything else contradicts him, and he is in no way an expert on the subject. Continue to do this, it really shows how practical you are being. Once a demon is inside of you, there is no Harrowing going on. You can keep quoting Alistair all you want, even though Alistair has been wrong on just about everything from lyrium use to what the Taint actually does.

Alistair is not wrong but DA2 not only screw what he said also screw his handsome charming face

Except even in DA:O, no one agreed with him. Alistair has been wrong from the beginning about everything. DA:O:A, has called almost everything about what he says wrong. Alistair has no idea what he's talking about in almost every situation since his inception. 

All hail the true heir of ferelden?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Continue to use the non-Templar as your only source of information even though everything else contradicts him, and he is in no way an expert on the subject. Continue to do this, it really shows how practical you are being. Once a demon is inside of you, there is no Harrowing going on. You can keep quoting Alistair all you want, even though Alistair has been wrong on just about everything from lyrium use to what the Taint actually does.

Alistair is not wrong but DA2 not only screw what he said also screw his handsome charming face

Except even in DA:O, no one agreed with him. Alistair has been wrong from the beginning about everything. DA:O:A, has called almost everything about what he says wrong. Alistair has no idea what he's talking about in almost every situation since his inception. 

All hail the true heir of ferelden?

His "CHEESE FOR EVERYONE" edict was popular enough...

[LOLandStuff]

Qistina, mages are in a waking state in the Fade, normal people only dream about it. Templars can't fight back in the Fade because they're not even aware they're in there in the first place.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...
Who's law? Chantry law?

Given that all the nations with Circles agreed that makes it the laws of most of Thedas. Whos law should it be?

Magic blocking magic is like virus blocking virus, snake eat it's own tail...it must be anti-virus blocking virus

What? Where did you get that stupid idea?
Magic is a force not a deasese. And any course can be coutnered with equal an opposite coutner-force.

Simple demonstration: you push me with your muscles. I push back with my muscles. As a result you're  not tiping me over. It's not anti-muscles at work there.

Matter and anti-Matter is not the same, and so Magic and anti-Magic

Anti-magic is a discriptor of function. In other words, it describes what it DOES. It's effects (to counter magic)
It's not a new type of magic.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 octobre 2013 - 06:55 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Mesina2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

That is fairly reasonable. Also, it would perhaps be best for the Templars to separate from the Chantry.

Wait, the Templar's are the major reason mages rebel.

And they need to get their paychecks and supplies from someone.

SOMEONE might be whomever is funding the Red Templar's. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
And supporting the templars in their war is simply monstrous. I don't think setting up a new system can be done except in peacetime.

And supporting the mages is retarded.

It's like betting on a lame horse.

Quistina wrote..
I suppose you forget the scene where Alistair says to the Warden, in discussing the Harrowing he was a part of:
"The girl they tested.  She had a demon put inside her, to see if she could resist."

Alistair is clearly wrong. As he has been about many things. Pretty muhc every other character far more learned than Alistair sez otherwise.



Both Gregoir and Irwing explain it very well here. Harrowign is kept secret out of NECESSTY and tha mages prepare apprentices the best they can.

[Xilizhra]

And supporting the mages is retarded.

It's like betting on a lame horse.

We'll see, but I think you greatly undestimate the mages. Or possibly overestimate the templars.

[CroGamer002]

FreshIstay wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

That is fairly reasonable. Also, it would perhaps be best for the Templars to separate from the Chantry.

Wait, the Templar's are the major reason mages rebel.

And they need to get their paychecks and supplies from someone.

SOMEONE might be whomever is funding the Red Templar's. 

Unless that someone is getting constant revenue out of taxing a nation, it can't fund them for very long time.

Templar's will require to return to the Chantry or become part of of some kingdom or their numbers will majorly shrink so much they'll have to live off as mercs or seize to exist.

They are a standing elite army, after all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Star fury wrote...
I missed something or do templars and senior mages make the Harrowing while they simultaneously fight demons? I haven't seen Gregoir and Irving desperately fighting demons while they send you in the Magi Origin. Could be wrong though.

Mages aren't soldiers. The enemies they face are in the Fade and not like anything on this earth, and that is where they must fight them and that is also why they must face them alone.
That's kinda the whole point.

Your changes to the Harrowing would make it pointless.

[LOLandStuff]

It's always about templars. But what would the reaction of the normal populace be if they saw mages walking about?
Sure they're friendly when disaster hits because they know you can protect them, but once you're of no use to them they'll be quick to throw the blame on you on bad luck trivialities, like his wife cheated on X because blood magic etc.
And people aren't paranoid because of Chantry propaganda, but because of what happened with the Tevinter Imperium.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Let me use an example of what I mean.

Merrill: A sloth demon! Think active thoughts, running, jumping!

Merrill's knowledge of demons far surpasses Anders, as well on how to resist them, and gives solid advice to Hawke on how to do so, whether or not those work in the combat itself, it makes it easier to resist.

That's my opinion at least.

The question is if Merrils knowledge has any practical value whatsoever. Or does she just think it has? Oddly enough, since the Fade is the realm of the will, just thinking something will help you might actually help you.

Actually Tarohne did the same like what Circle Mage did in Harrowing, the only difference is Tarohne put demon into Templars

That is actually Harrowing of Templar

Nope. Tharone tortured tempalrs to have them accept the demon and did everything she could to break their will and force them in.
that is completely different from the Harrowing, but since you live in your own little world, I doubt my words will reach you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Irving: It goes without saying that you will NOT discuss the Harrowing with those who have not undergone the right.

Apprentices have no idea they are going to face demons or be killed, and the knowledge is deliberately kept from them.

And Irwing is mage. And he thinks it's a necessity. As do all other First Enchanters. As do Tevinter mages.

I don't really recall any mage in-game complaining about the Harrowing being "unfair".

Aprentices know ENOUGH. Otherwise, Irwing wouldn't say so.

[AlexanderCousland]

Mesina2 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I think that the templars could use a little less power, maybe some stricter and more standardized training. Mages also need to accept that they won't ever be completely free, clinging to idealistic ideals won't accomplish much.

That is fairly reasonable. Also, it would perhaps be best for the Templars to separate from the Chantry.

Wait, the Templar's are the major reason mages rebel.

And they need to get their paychecks and supplies from someone.

SOMEONE might be whomever is funding the Red Templar's. 

Unless that someone is getting constant revenue out of taxing a nation, it can't fund them for very long time.

Templar's will require to return to the Chantry or become part of of some kingdom or their numbers will majorly shrink so much they'll have to live off as mercs or seize to exist.

They are a standing elite army, after all.

I guess you forgot about Red Lyrium and all the money it made Hawke.
Red Lyrium is a largely untapped resource and considering there is  such a thing as a "Red Templar" I'd say whomever Is leading that Orginization is already harvesting profit from it. Dwarves  most likely dealt with regular Templars directly unless you beleive that Chantry brother's and sister's were directly responsible for the procurement and administering of Lyrium to a Templar. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
We'll see, but I think you greatly undestimate the mages. Or possibly overestimate the templars.

The rest of the world will NEVER allow mages their freedom, as long as mages are a threat.
Mages are outnumbered, they don't have popular support, and they don't have political support.

Even if by some miracle mages manage a victory, they will only have another war in a few years.

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
We'll see, but I think you greatly undestimate the mages. Or possibly overestimate the templars.

The rest of the world will NEVER allow mages their freedom, as long as mages are a threat.
Mages are outnumbered, they don't have popular support, and they don't have political support.

Even if by some miracle mages manage a victory, they will only have another war in a few years.

We'll have to see what DAI looks like, I suppose.

[LOLandStuff]

Is it just me or that whole "greatly underestimating mages" sounded rather ominous.

[CroGamer002]

FreshIstay wrote...

I guess you forgot about Red Lyrium and all the money it made Hawke.
Red Lyrium is a largely untapped resource and considering there is  such a thing as a "Red Templar" I'd say whomever Is leading that Orginization is already harvesting profit from it. Dwarves  most likely dealt with regular Templars directly unless you beleive that Chantry brother's and sister's were directly responsible for the procurement and administering of Lyrium to a Templar. 

Oh.

Well, my bad.

Hmh, still need to familiar myself better with DA lore.