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[Boycott Bioware]

Merethari dialogue cannot be use to say elves against Blood Magic, because she just want to play Blood Magic sentiment with Hawke, a human. She don't want Merill to complete the mirror making her using that sentiment to influence Hawke

Merill dialogue to Hawke is an Elf dialogue with human about Blood Magic. Anders saying "are you that stupid?", that is a bias statement, Anders is Andrasterian Mage, not Dalish Mage. Anders view about Blood Magic is of Andrasterian view

The game is only have human protagonist, that is Hawke, so the whole Blood Magic is evil is from one side of story, that is the story for how human protagonist view it. If Dalish is the protagonist, the whole thing will turn out to be differently

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:01 .

[Star fury]

Qistina wrote...

Merethari dialogue cannot be use to say elves against Blood Magic, because she just want to play Blood Magic sentiment with Hawke, a human. She don't want Merill to complete the mirror making her using that sentiment to influence Hawke

Merill dialogue to Hawke is an Elf dialogue with human about Blood Magic. Anders saying "are you that stupid?", that is a bias statement, Anders is Andrasterian Mage, not Dalish Mage. Anders view about Blood Magic is of Andrasterian view

The game is only have human protagonist, that is Hawke, so the whole Blood Magic is evil is from one side of story, that is the story for how human protagonist view it. If Dalish is the protagonist, the whole thing will turn out to be differently

Not only Marethari is against the blood magic, the whole clan despises Merril because of her dangerous game with it. Oh and Fenris too.  

[Boycott Bioware]

Not only Marethari is against the blood magic, the whole clan despises Merril because of her dangerous game with it. Oh and Fenris too.

The clan against her because influenced by Merethari...that being explained by Merethari herself

In Act 2, a Varteral attacking the clan, if you listen to the dialogue, the Varteral is provoked by something...i suspect it is provoked by the demon at the top of the hill, there's also undeads and Cold Spirit in it...Merethari already being possessed by that time

Merethari maybe have lost her mind or she just don't want Merill to come back, so she influence the whole clan to make Merill don't come back. But since Merill come back with some humans, so why not send them kill the Varteral...then influence Hawke to against Merill

like i mention before, fenris have personal problem with Denarius. And just because someone is Elf, doesn't mean they are friend...DA:O show that, if you are Dalish Warden, you will meet unfriendly Elves along the way

Merill clan against her not because Blood Magic, but because of the mirror corruption

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:37 .

[Boycott Bioware]

As i recall the dialogues is like this

Merill : Inside..we meet Pol, he run away, scared of me
Merethari : The clan fear you bring back the corruption
Merill : And where they get that idea?
Merethari : I am their Keeper it is my responsibility to remind them

Then i forgot...

Merethari : The mirror lured you to Blood Magic, don't forget who you were
Merill : And who am i?

Don't forget that Merill is the First, the next Keeper

Edit : Merill may look like stupid, childish, vulnerable...bust actually she's not

Look at her special skill...it's ancient Elven magic...Wrath of Elvhanan, it's Blood Magic, Keeper's Magic

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Do you ever actually debate or do you just state your personal opinion and treat it like it's written in the very atoms of the universe?

Do you?
Because you flatly said "this is the middle ground, and nothing else". And with what did oyu support it? Nothing.

I don't need an essay to say you're wrong. Because you're wrong. Your idea isn't am iddle ground.. well, maybe it is for you, but that's because you already start far from the middle, so your "middle ground" is that only for you.

The Circles ARE the middle ground. A solution between "kill/tranqul all mages" and "set them all free".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

Does the Maker makes Mages to be imprisoned in the Circle?
- No

Does Andraste teach that all born Mages must be taken away and imprisoned?
- No

Does Creators told Dalish to imprison their Mages?
- No

Does Ancestors of Dwarves told the Dwarves to imprison Mages?
- No

Does the Qun say it is certain that all Mages among the Qun must be abused?
- No

So, where this "Mages are dangerous and must be imprisoned and/or abused" sentiment come from?

Does the Bible say "all nuclear weaposn must be kept under strict secuarity and no singhle individual given control over them"? No?
You heard it here first folks - this sentiment is cleary garbage. Nukes for everyone!

The idea that everything has to be specificly spelled out in a religious text is redicolous. Common sense exists for a reason.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

What Soronnar said.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Circles ARE the middle ground. A solution between "kill/tranqul all mages" and "set them all free".

Christ how appropriate that it's called the Circle system.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Does the Bible say "all nuclear weaposn must be kept under strict secuarity and no singhle individual given control over them"? No?
You heard it here first folks - this sentiment is cleary garbage. Nukes for everyone!

I am not Christian but i know that Bible say "those who have no sin, cast the first stone" and also "Don’t hit back; discover beauty in everyone. If you’ve got it in you, get along with everybody. Don’t insist on getting even; that’s not for you to do. “I’ll do the judging,” says God. “I’ll take care of it.”

But Christian have military order in Crusade, have Inquisition to torture "heretics" and so on...

Religion my friend, is not an issue at all

[Boycott Bioware]

What the Chantry did to Mages is not religious...it's against religion, it's fear and corruption, using religion to oppress, it's politic

Religion teach good things, but there are peoples who use religion to justify evil acts, and feel proud of it...just twist some things then say "it is a will of God/Allah", or "god's willing" or "it's the demand of the Qun" or "it's the will of the Maker"....these sayings is to justify what they did

Not only religion...but ideologies too..invade other people country and say "it's for democracy"

Everyone need justifications...war need justifications...or else war is just butchering peoples for something

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:59 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Relax people.

I encourage people to at least be respectful that others will have different perspectives on where "middle" is and to facilitate a respectful discussion instead of an adversarial one.


EDIT: Despite it's placement, I just want to make it clear to you Qistina that your recent posts are fine in this regard.  It's more a general comment to the last few pages of the thread.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 24 octobre 2013 - 08:05 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
EDIT: Despite it's placement, I just want to make it clear to you Qistina that your recent posts are fine.

Oh, thank you...i sweating a bit a while ago...lol

[Maria Caliban]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

Because then there would be no story.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Does the Bible say "all nuclear weaposn must be kept under strict secuarity and no singhle individual given control over them"? No?
You heard it here first folks - this sentiment is cleary garbage. Nukes for everyone!

I am not Christian but i know that Bible say "those who have no sin, cast the first stone" and also "Don’t hit back; discover beauty in everyone. If you’ve got it in you, get along with everybody. Don’t insist on getting even; that’s not for you to do. “I’ll do the judging,” says God. “I’ll take care of it.”

Religion my friend, is not an issue at all

You are the one who's making it an issue by going "it's not in the religious text, therefore - corruption!"
No, not corruption.
Common sense.
Mages are dangerous. Keeping them segregated doesnt' have to have anything to do with religion. A 100% atheists can also come to the conclusion that mages have to be strictly controlled.

But Christian have military order in Crusade, have Inquisition to torture "heretics" and so on...

So you're saying a culture or religion doesn't have the right to protext it's existence?
No, friend, the Catholic Church didn't have a military order. The Crusades were led by kings and their armies.

But you are right in the regard that all wars are produce of baser human nature.
The justifications change with time - in the name of God, coutnry, democracy, party, motherland, greater good or whatever.

What the Chantry did to Mages is not religious...it's against religion,
it's fear and corruption, using religion to oppress, it's politic

Everything is politics because politics has a tendency to affect everything.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are the one who's making it an issue by going "it's not in the religious text, therefore - corruption!"
No, not corruption.
Common sense.
Mages are dangerous. Keeping them segregated doesnt' have to have anything to do with religion. A 100% atheists can also come to the conclusion that mages have to be strictly controlled.

It's not COMMON sense...as you can see the Dalish have no common sense with you (don't share the same sense)

The Chantry claim what they did is by divine right, meaning they are using religion...and again, not all peoples share their religion...Mages can be Elf, Qunari, whatever race except Dwarves

Qunari claim their Sarebas must be treated such way because it's the demand of the Qun...but really? Again, other races don't share their religion and culture

They impose their religion on peoples...while Mages can be of any culture, race and religion

It is like I bring a banner of any organization then i raid your house saying "i have a right to do this granted by my invisible superior"...you can say "who care the **** of your invisible superior, get out from my house!"

See, the screen shot i share, the Templars hunting Fenriyel, torturing an Elf boy with fire and want to engage combat with the Dalish...for what? Common sense? No, they justify with "It's the will of the Maker!"

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Dermain]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You are the one who's making it an issue by going "it's not in the religious text, therefore - corruption!"
No, not corruption.
Common sense.
Mages are dangerous. Keeping them segregated doesnt' have to have anything to do with religion. A 100% atheists can also come to the conclusion that mages have to be strictly controlled.

No.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So you're saying a culture or religion doesn't have the right to protext it's existence?
No, friend, the Catholic Church didn't have a military order. The Crusades were led by kings and their armies.

Who were basically told that they could sin as much as they want as long as they were doing it under God's name. Sarcastic points aside those kings with their armies BECAME the military arm of the Church as did the Knights Templar, Knights of Saint John, and any other order of militant monks that formed during the period.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But you are right in the regard that all wars are produce of baser human nature.
The justifications change with time - in the name of God, coutnry, democracy, party, motherland, greater good or whatever.

I would argue it is more of a result of culture than a "baser human nature". There are cultures in the world that have no incidences of rape, but rape can be seen as "baser human nature". The justifications for any "negative" action is usually found in the culture itself.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Everything is politics because politics has a tendency to affect everything.

I have a feeling Qistina had a different point in mind. Perhaps Qistina means that the Chantry is using the "fear of mages" as a way of maintaining their current power. Which would imply that the entire subjugation of the mages is all about politics, not about some "greater good".

Modifié par Myrkale, 24 octobre 2013 - 09:05 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Myrkale wrote...
I have a feeling Qistina had a different point in mind. Perhaps Qistina means that the Chantry is using the "fear of mages" as a way of maintaining their current power. Which would imply that the entire subjugation of the mages is all about politics, not about some "greater good".

Yes, and they maintain the sentiment over Tevinter Imperium, the old enemy. It's politic

i. they control the mass to hate Tevinter Imperium
ii. they control the Mages in their land so these Mages/apostates would not support Tevinter Imperium
iii. they hunt any Mages using their "divine right" no matter if those "apostates" are not Andrasterians to eliminate the threat
v. they create fear and so the mass will depend on them when the time come

Create a threat to unite your nation, use sentiments to make peoples support you

Similar goes to Qunari...other than Chantry Kingdoms, Qunari who have war with Tevinter, they control their Sarebas because of the same reason.

Both Chantry and Qunari use religion to justify their political scheme

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 09:47 .

[dragonflight288]

Star fury wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Merethari dialogue cannot be use to say elves against Blood Magic, because she just want to play Blood Magic sentiment with Hawke, a human. She don't want Merill to complete the mirror making her using that sentiment to influence Hawke

Merill dialogue to Hawke is an Elf dialogue with human about Blood Magic. Anders saying "are you that stupid?", that is a bias statement, Anders is Andrasterian Mage, not Dalish Mage. Anders view about Blood Magic is of Andrasterian view

The game is only have human protagonist, that is Hawke, so the whole Blood Magic is evil is from one side of story, that is the story for how human protagonist view it. If Dalish is the protagonist, the whole thing will turn out to be differently

Not only Marethari is against the blood magic, the whole clan despises Merril because of her dangerous game with it. Oh and Fenris too.  

In Act 2, Merethari's main point of contention for opposing what Merrill is doing after her quest in slaying the Varterral is "that Merrill will bring back the taint." It isn't blood magic, it isn't even the fact that Merrill is looking into Daish history. It's simply the fact that Merrill is looking into the eluvian specifically, and Merethari is absolutely terrified that her eluvian will do the exact same thing as the one corrupted by darkspawn did to the Dalish Warden and Tamlen that she cannot conceive of any other outcome.

Even in Origins, Merethari is terrified of the eluvian.

Never mind that darkspawn corrupt everything they come in contact with.

source- http://dragonage.wik...ki/Mirror_Image

It's only the city-elf (and thus the more Andrastian) Poll who has problems with Merrill's blood magic in DA2.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Myrkale wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A 100% atheists can also come to the conclusion that mages have to be strictly controlled.

No.

Yes.
Unless you claim to speak for all the atheists - and I know you don't.
And I know that areatheist Pro-Templras, so....

Who were basically told that they could sin as much as they want as long as they were doing it under God's name. Sarcastic points aside those kings with their armies BECAME the military arm of the Church as did the Knights Templar, Knights of Saint John, and any other order of militant monks that formed during the period.

Who the frak tought you history? Since when have popular culture myth become historical facts?

No, armies never become a miltiary arm of the Church, since the church never controled them. The Church called for liberation of occupied lands. Some people answered. Some didn't. Kings and general lead the armies and they defined objective and they gave orders. Not the Church.

I would argue it is more of a result of culture than a "baser human nature". There are cultures in the world that have no incidences of rape, but rape can be seen as "baser human nature". The justifications for any "negative" action is usually found in the culture itself.

Sauce?
You know the difference between "I never heard of this" nad "this never happens because I didnt' hear about this"?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...
It's not COMMON sense...as you can see the Dalish have no common sense with you (don't share the same sense)

The Dalish live in completely different circumstances and theit lack of common sense is biting them back in the ass.
Two clans lost to mages.
Great sucess record.

The Chantry claim what they did is by divine right, meaning they are using religion...and again, not all peoples share their religion...Mages can be Elf, Qunari, whatever race except Dwarves

They impose their religion on peoples...while Mages can be of any culture, race and religion

But it doesnt' really matter.
If mages haveto be loked up, it doesn't really matter if you think you have divine right or natural right, or logical right or whatever.
The law is law and it applies to anyone.

It is like I bring a banner of any organization then i raid your house saying "i have a right to do this granted by my invisible superior"...you can say "who care the **** of your invisible superior, get out from my house!"

And how is that different from marching in and claimign you have the authority by baind a Grey Warden, or the autohiry of the King, or the autohrity of your fist?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually those cultures "without rape", are actually just cultures where "rape" is accepted. Where a man can take a woman, who doesn't have a man of her own, and have his way with her, and she wouldn't object because it was her place to be taken. So... Yeah... "no rape"....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 octobre 2013 - 11:32 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually those cultures "without rape", are actually just cultures where "rape" is accepted. Where a man can take a woman, who doesn't have a man of her own, and have his way with her, and she wouldn't object because it was her place to be taken. So... Yeah... "no rape"....

Your evidence?

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Dalish live in completely different circumstances and theit lack of common sense is biting them back in the ass.
Two clans lost to mages.
Great sucess record. 

Zathrian's can be killed by The Warden if he encourages the werewolves to attack the clan, while Hawke and Merrill can kill the clan in self-defense, or simply leave Sundermount after killing the initial hunters, thereby sparing the rest of the clan. Considering that neither clan had to die, much less that their deaths transpire at the hands of the protagonist, I'm not seeing the point of your condemnation of them. They have different cultural and religious views than the Chantry; that doesn't make them wrong.

[Star fury]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Dalish live in completely different circumstances and theit lack of common sense is biting them back in the ass.
Two clans lost to mages.
Great sucess record. 

Zathrian's can be killed by The Warden if he encourages the werewolves to attack the clan, while Hawke and Merrill can kill the clan in self-defense, or simply leave Sundermount after killing the initial hunters, thereby sparing the rest of the clan. Considering that neither clan had to die, much less that their deaths transpire at the hands of the protagonist, I'm not seeing the point of your condemnation of them. They have different cultural and religious views than the Chantry; that doesn't make them wrong.

He has an agenda against mages, that's why he blames them for everything. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually those cultures "without rape", are actually just cultures where "rape" is accepted. Where a man can take a woman, who doesn't have a man of her own, and have his way with her, and she wouldn't object because it was her place to be taken. So... Yeah... "no rape"....

Your evidence?

Several pre-iron age tribes from around the globe, shows extensive objectification of women, with little signs of the women actually resisting this. This of course might be a product of no written language of the tribes themselves, and only foreigners' observations being the sources. My point is, there is no such thing as a "rape free culture". All cultures have rape in form or another.