810 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually those cultures "without rape", are actually just cultures where "rape" is accepted. Where a man can take a woman, who doesn't have a man of her own, and have his way with her, and she wouldn't object because it was her place to be taken. So... Yeah... "no rape"....

Your evidence?

Several pre-iron age tribes from around the globe, shows extensive objectification of women, with little signs of the women actually resisting this. This of course might be a product of no written language of the tribes themselves, and only foreigners' observations being the sources. My point is, there is no such thing as a "rape free culture". All cultures have rape in form or another.

Yes, that's real world, but where's te evidence hat places like the Rivaini or he Chasind practice this? We know the Dalish do not because Cammen and Gheyna's bonding quest....

grr, I had to make myself sick by reminding myself of Cammen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think that going as far as to say that a Dalish have never raped another Dalish, based on the quest between Gheyna and Cammen, might be stretching it a bit. Sexual frustration and psychopathy is not something limited to our world, or just the human condition.

I'm not saying that any culture on Thedas objectify women (actually I think they all are unnaturally gender equal). I'm saying that all cultures, even the ones in Thedas, have rapists.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think that going as far as to say that a Dalish have never raped another Dalish, based on the quest between Gheyna and Cammen, might be stretching it a bit. Sexual frustration and psychopathy is not something limited to our world, or just the human condition.

I never said a Dalish never raped another Dalish. I was saying that rape is most certainly not part of their culture, as you mentioned is the case of several real life pre-iron age civilizations.

I'm not saying that any culture on Thedas objectify women (actually I think they all are unnaturally gender equal). I'm saying that all cultures, even the ones in Thedas, have rapists.

Hmm. It sounded like you were saying it's part of their culture with your reference to the pre-iron age civilizations that practiced it as part of their culture and marriage practices.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I was simply refuting a previous comment about "rape free cultures" in our world.

I believe this is one of the cases where we have argued, even though essentially we have been in agreement..

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was simply refuting a previous comment about "rape free cultures" in our world.

I believe this is one of the cases where we have argued, even though essentially we have been in agreement..

Seems that way.

[Boycott Bioware]

Lotion Soronar wrote...
The Dalish live in completely different circumstances and theit lack of common sense is biting them back in the ass.
Two clans lost to mages.
Great sucess record.

Elves have different sentiment on Mages, because THEY WAS MAGES....the war with Tevinter was magical war, battle of Mages. Tevinter fear Elven power. There must be something happen that makes Elves lost their magic.

But below show that maybe there was many Elves Dreamers. Somniari art is ancient Elven art. Merethari manage to recreate the ritual and manage to send even 4 non-Mages into the Fade...imagine that...so powerful

So Elves have no problem at all with Mages and Magic, THEY SEEK IT, they seek their ancient knowledge to bring back their glory

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:12 .

[Reaverwind]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Qistina wrote...
It's not COMMON sense...as you can see the Dalish have no common sense with you (don't share the same sense)

The Dalish live in completely different circumstances and theit lack of common sense is biting them back in the ass.
Two clans lost to mages.
Great sucess record.

LOL - if they continue with their lack of common sense, that problem will resolve itself - there won't be any Dalish left to worry about.

[Boycott Bioware]

If we look at character creation in DA:O, all Elves by default have some points in Magic and Willpower, even as warrior or rogue, Elven rogue have higher points than Elven warrior...compare with other races

Elves, in any lore, typically are magical creatures, so it is not shocking that Elves in DA:O are magical creatures too. yes they are typically expert in archery but by nature they are magical

So i suspect the ancient Elves and Tevinter rival each other in magic, but Tevinter maybe found Elven weakness and exploit it, not only makes Elves lost the war but also lost their magic. Because of Elves have lost their magic, other "sharks" bite them through generations. These sharks are the human barbarians who later established their kingdoms such as Ferelden and Orlais

So, Elves especially Dalish Elves have different sentiment toward magic and Mages. Even if historically they are rival with Tevinter, but their rivalry is magical. They resent human who took away everything from them, took away their language, land, freedom and MAGIC

They are not like Andrasterians and Qunaris who have different sentiment, Chantry Kingdoms and Qunaris using religion for their political rivalry with Tevinter Imperium, not the same case with Dalish

[Adanu]

There can be no compromise until Templars learn to listen and not just dictate. Until then, mages fight.

[Boycott Bioware]

That is why i said in earlier post, there is no middle ground...

Mages are Human, Elves, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarves...each races have different culture, religion and sentiments

What "middle ground" here if it only favor one religion? What "middle ground" if it favor the oppressors? What "middle ground" if it only favor one sided view?

Mage-Templar problem is not Dalish problem, not other races problem...it's Chantry problem and human-Andrasterians problem

You guys want to enforce Chantry view of magic toward non-Andrasterians? You guys want to enforce Qunari view of Magic to non-Qunari?

That's not middle ground...that's BIAS

To really achieve peace is by...THROW AWAY ALL SENTIMENTS...and uphold justice

[Vilegrim]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other.

Templars are not only meant to watch the mages, they are their protectors aswell. The Templars protect mages not only from the threat of religious fanatics, but Templars also serve to protect the mages should abominations or blood mages come knocking. The Harrowing is a trial by fire, but so is combat in general now isn't it?

Andraste was not against mages, just Tevinter and blood magic. Mages are unfortunately highly dangerous individuals. Their powers are in themselves dangerous. They are not inherently evil, simply dangerous. And, the people who do not posses this gift are suspicious, probably reasonably so. To say "The mages should be free!" is like saying that guns should be everywhere. It's an idiotic notion, but the virtue of freedom is a dear one to the Western world (perhaps others as well, simply speaking from experience)

Safety and Freedom are brothers, inseparable and constantly vying for power. Both are necessary for a health, viable, non-oppressive society.

The Circle was the best solution, and while they have been dissolved, they were the only workable solution and best protected the freedom and the lives of the majority and taught the mages how to control the immense power at their disposal'

I suppose the point is.........

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

The circles where a (admitedly ancient world, roman style high status chattel) slavery.   With forced conversion, forced self loathing, and all this enforced by the threat of blood magic and annulment (aka genocide on a certain class of individual) for thsi to work ,the mages would have to be able to annul the templars, the andrastraian faith would have to be optional, marriage would have to be allowed, leaving the circle after apprenticeship would have to be permitted, and non ambomination free mages would have to be allowed to make the choice to not come into the system at all (so no more hunting down and killing alternate traditions.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 24 octobre 2013 - 04:20 .

[Dave of Canada]

Reaverwind wrote...

LOL - if they continue with their lack of common sense, that problem will resolve itself - there won't be any Dalish left to worry about.

I've wiped out two clans now, they're probably getting the message that no-one wants them.

[kathic]

I do not believe that mages should be forced back to the status quo antebellum. The differences between the mages and the Templar do not allow things to go back as they were. Issues like the Right of Annulment and Tranquility are too divisive to allow the old Circle system to work. Mages cannot trust Templar and the Templar need to feel like they have some control for their own protection. Either a political solution must be reached in the form of a new Circle or a military solution must be reached. As a betting man I would say the military solution will win out. Either the mages will be conquered or the Templar will be destroyed.

[Chaos Hammer]

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

[Reaverwind]

kathic wrote...

I do not believe that mages should be forced back to the status quo antebellum. The differences between the mages and the Templar do not allow things to go back as they were. Issues like the Right of Annulment and Tranquility are too divisive to allow the old Circle system to work. Mages cannot trust Templar and the Templar need to feel like they have some control for their own protection. Either a political solution must be reached in the form of a new Circle or a military solution must be reached. As a betting man I would say the military solution will win out. Either the mages will be conquered or the Templar will be destroyed.

I agree that it will come down to a military solution. 

[Star fury]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

1. No, it's a principle - you either control mages, or do not control.

2. So? Dalish mages get possessed, they get killed. Problem solved.

[Boycott Bioware]

Justice is blind...justice don't see what religion, culture, sentiment, political view, ideology, status, rank and who you are...justice is to set things to where it belong to

- criminals must be punished accordingly
- reward deeds accordingly
- give people right accordingly
- giving people what they deserve accordingly
- defend the oppressed no matter who
- fight the oppressors no matter who
- do not be above or below your station
- do not involve in matters that are not your place to involve in
- leave things to the professional or knowledgeable
- judge by the deed not by the sentiment
- judge peoples as according to the people's law, practice, religion and culture
- ...and many things

Justice is subjective, but justice NEVER oppressive...justice is the truth, the truth is never at the hands of the oppressors

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[dragonflight288]

Qistina wrote...

That is why i said in earlier post, there is no middle ground...

Mages are Human, Elves, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarves...each races have different culture, religion and sentiments

What "middle ground" here if it only favor one religion? What "middle ground" if it favor the oppressors? What "middle ground" if it only favor one sided view?

Mage-Templar problem is not Dalish problem, not other races problem...it's Chantry problem and human-Andrasterians problem

You guys want to enforce Chantry view of magic toward non-Andrasterians? You guys want to enforce Qunari view of Magic to non-Qunari?

That's not middle ground...that's BIAS

To really achieve peace is by...THROW AWAY ALL SENTIMENTS...and uphold justice

Well said.

[LobselVith8]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

It isn't ignorant to have a different opinion than you. As for a middle ground, when templars thinks the Maker gives them divine right over mages, I'm disinclined to think there's a genuine middle ground to be reached.

Chaos Hammer wrote...

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

There were several contenders vying for the position of First in Zathrian's clan, and there are mages in his clan who aren't the First or the Keeper. Also, the Dales was an elven kingdom with free mages, who were even permitted to have leadership positions.

Chaos Hammer wrote...

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

Zathrian wasn't possessed.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:37 .

[wcholcombe]

I love this, a topic started for middle ground conversation that has devolved into the same arguments in every other thread.

Where did the Dalish even come into this conversation....

Anyway, the middle ground solution to me again would involve killing off the hardline templars--primarily red templars I would assume--and removing their ignorant billigerence towards mages.

It would also involve removing the extremists on the mage side.  Those who harbor blood mages, refuse to cooperate or work towards a compromise, or basically believe that complete mage independence is the only solution and is worth whatever price has to be paid.  I am sorry but the mages who hold this belief are just as billigerent and ignorant as the above Templars.

At this point, the chantry--ie DIvine-- would have to be truly open to reform as seems the case in Asunder.

My solution is that the Templar Commander and the 1st enchanter have to occupy equal status and then you have a 3rd party person--I don't know maybe a dwarf from the merchants guild or something--who occupies the 3rd position.  This would give both Mages and Templars an avenue for handling grievances without letting it sethe as it currently does on both sides.  It would also remove the idea of Templars always threatening violence and pushing the mages to blood magic.  Admittedly, this should be lessened by the reforms and removal of the hardline faction of templars.  I am assuming from what I have read that the Templars who stayed with the Chantry support the Divine's reforms and are more friendly to mages.

The issue of the circle and mages living there... I can't see away around that, especially in regard to apprentice mages and those who haven't survived the harrowing.  Admittedly the crackdown on travel after Kirkwall is extreme and the results were predictable, but at the same time, I cannot see mages being allowed to live wherever they want without having to be associated with a tower.  Both for their safety and the safety of others.  Especially while they are still being trained.  Maybe a situation like Wilhelm, where as a fully trained and experienced mage he was able to live outside the tower, but wasn't an extreme distance away.  At the same time, it would be dangerous for a mage to live by themselves in a village if they weren't welcome there.

Anyway my middle ground take.

[MakutaDax]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

I just want to point out a few things.

A: There might be a small number of Dalish mages, but there's also a small number of Dalish in general. Even with such a limited population, the clans still have enough mages to swap between themselves and for all clans to have at least two mages in their midst at all times (the Keeper and the First). There's also some evidence that most clans either have more than just these two mages or have some way of quickly replacing them as Merithari didn't have to wait long to get a new First after Merrill's departure. So, maybe this abundance of mages in the context of their smaller population does show that the Dalish have a higher rate of mage births than other races and non-Dalish elves.

B: Yes, Merrill does say that a Keeper, and all Dalish mages by extenion, can be possessed. Then they are hunted down and dealt with. End of story. You're saying this like it's a bad thing, but isn't it a good example of how mages can be free, watched over, and dealt with if necessary? Dalish mages aren't imprisoned and they are placed in leader positions without falling to the magister's corruption and with, from what we've seen, low incidents of possession and if they are possessed, their clan (essentially their handlers) takes care of it. That's seems pretty middlegroundish to me.

C: Zathrien wasn't possessed. He used blood magic to bind a spirit to a wolf and created the werewolf's curse, but he did it without becoming an abomination. Pretty made skill for a mage to do all of that without falling pray to a demon. King of like, maybe, the Dalish mages are better equiped to handle such interactions... Except for maybe Merrill. Yeah, just ignore her. xD

[wcholcombe]

Qistina wrote...

That is why i said in earlier post, there is no middle ground...

Mages are Human, Elves, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarves...each races have different culture, religion and sentiments

What "middle ground" here if it only favor one religion? What "middle ground" if it favor the oppressors? What "middle ground" if it only favor one sided view?

Mage-Templar problem is not Dalish problem, not other races problem...it's Chantry problem and human-Andrasterians problem

You guys want to enforce Chantry view of magic toward non-Andrasterians? You guys want to enforce Qunari view of Magic to non-Qunari?

That's not middle ground...that's BIAS

To really achieve peace is by...THROW AWAY ALL SENTIMENTS...and uphold justice

By that sentiment, the Dalish, Chasind, and Qunari are the only ones who don't fall under Chantry title.

City elves do, all the human nations-including Tevinter have templars.  In Asunder, the Lord Seeker talks about how he was formerly a templar in Tevinter, until the man he helped rise to position of Black Divine revealed that he had lied to and used him.  Dwarves don't, but again dwarves don't have magic and the Shapers have no history of them ever using magic.  The Qunari practice a much harsher treatment of mages anyway.  As for the Chasind, haven't read much about them lately, though I do recall reading a lot of stuff about the high occurence of Abominations among Chasind mages prior to DAO coming out.

It is a very noble ideal to leave the Dalish alone.  The modern 21st century person in me agrees largely with this sentiment.  However, if you also look at it from the perspective of most non dalish, do they really want a group of nomads wandering around their countryside with the Thedas equivalent of a nuclear bomb in their midst.  I am not saying that the Templars have the right to capture Dalish mages, I am simply playing devils advocate in this question, because it is a serious question.  Just like in the modern world, we police access to Nuclear arms and such, it is something to consider.

And I will agree that the Dalish have no issue with magic, they are basically a mageocracy.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:46 .

[wcholcombe]

MakutaDax wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

I just want to point out a few things.

A: There might be a small number of Dalish mages, but there's also a small number of Dalish in general. Even with such a limited population, the clans still have enough mages to swap between themselves and for all clans to have at least two mages in their midst at all times (the Keeper and the First). There's also some evidence that most clans either have more than just these two mages or have some way of quickly replacing them as Merithari didn't have to wait long to get a new First after Merrill's departure. So, maybe this abundance of mages in the context of their smaller population does show that the Dalish have a higher rate of mage births than other races and non-Dalish elves.

B: Yes, Merrill does say that a Keeper, and all Dalish mages by extenion, can be possessed. Then they are hunted down and dealt with. End of story. You're saying this like it's a bad thing, but isn't it a good example of how mages can be free, watched over, and dealt with if necessary? Dalish mages aren't imprisoned and they are placed in leader positions without falling to the magister's corruption and with, from what we've seen, low incidents of possession and if they are possessed, their clan (essentially their handlers) takes care of it. That's seems pretty middlegroundish to me.

C: Zathrien wasn't possessed. He used blood magic to bind a spirit to a wolf and created the werewolf's curse, but he did it without becoming an abomination. Pretty made skill for a mage to do all of that without falling pray to a demon. King of like, maybe, the Dalish mages are better equiped to handle such interactions... Except for maybe Merrill. Yeah, just ignore her. xD

Won't argue with A.

On B, yes the dalish handle it, but the problem is not nore has it ever been killing an abomination after it happens. It is the damage they do before you stop them.  It is good to have the idea of letting a mage be free until they mess up, but you also have to consider the 70 people that Meredith's sister killed before they stopped her, the entire castle full of servants at redcliff, all the templars and mages that were killed/turned into abominations before the tower was reclaimed in DAO, and what happens if the seeker is possessed, kills the entire clain before it is stopped, and wanders into a nearby village and goes on a rampage or kills more dalish.  Not disagreeing with your sentement, just pointing out the things to consider.

On Zathrien, no he wasn't an abomination in the literal since.  He was an abomination as a dalish though.  I mean I can go along with him cursing the Shems who did what they did to his family, but to have the curse continue, to have it infect humans that had nothing to do with his daughter, to have the curse affect and basically kill the dalish under his protection, and refuse to do what he knows would fix the problem.  The whole time claiming he had rediscovered the long life of the Elves, while his own people were paying the price, is abominable.  It is the very corrupt misuse of magic that is a concern.  Again, I fully agree with what Zathrien did to the pieces of garbage who raped his daughter, but that doesn't excuse everything else he allowed to happen.

[MakutaDax]

wcholcombe wrote...

Qistina wrote...

That is why i said in earlier post, there is no middle ground...

Mages are Human, Elves, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarves...each races have different culture, religion and sentiments

What "middle ground" here if it only favor one religion? What "middle ground" if it favor the oppressors? What "middle ground" if it only favor one sided view?

Mage-Templar problem is not Dalish problem, not other races problem...it's Chantry problem and human-Andrasterians problem

You guys want to enforce Chantry view of magic toward non-Andrasterians? You guys want to enforce Qunari view of Magic to non-Qunari?

That's not middle ground...that's BIAS

To really achieve peace is by...THROW AWAY ALL SENTIMENTS...and uphold justice

By that sentiment, the Dalish, Chasind, and Qunari are the only ones who don't fall under Chantry title.

City elves do, all the human nations-including Tevinter have templars.  In Asunder, the Lord Seeker talks about how he was formerly a templar in Tevinter, until the man he helped rise to position of Black Divine revealed that he had lied to and used him.  Dwarves don't, but again dwarves don't have magic and the Shapers have no history of them ever using magic.  The Qunari practice a much harsher treatment of mages anyway.  As for the Chasind, haven't read much about them lately, though I do recall reading a lot of stuff about the high occurence of Abominations among Chasind mages prior to DAO coming out.

It is a very noble ideal to leave the Dalish alone.  The modern 21st century person in me agrees largely with this sentiment.  However, if you also look at it from the perspective of most non dalish, do they really want a group of nomads wandering around their countryside with the Thedas equivalent of a nuclear bomb in their midst.  I am not saying that the Templars have the right to capture Dalish mages, I am simply playing devils advocate in this question, because it is a serious question.  Just like in the modern world, we police access to Nuclear arms and such, it is something to consider.

And I will agree that the Dalish have no issue with magic, they are basically a mageocracy.

Well, as far as the Chasind go, they work kind of like the Dalish. Every tribe is lead by a shaman, a mage. As for abominations... I've never heard of or read anything about a Chasind abomination, but I could have just missed something.

As for the Dalish bands wandering around with their mages, I can't recall hearing a single thing about a Dalish mage attacking a village or a Dalish abomination slaughtering townsfolk, but again, I might have missed something. If I haven't then I would argue that Dalish mages can't be viewed in such a negative light without any evidence of major occurences of possession. We already know that a Dalish clan will hunt down any of their mages who become abominations, which could explain why no Dalish abomination has ever been cited as the cause of some tragedy. So why can't we just say, "Well, the Dalish obviously have themselves under control..." and be done with it? Their way of doing things seems to get a better result than most others. lol

Modifié par MakutaDax, 24 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .

[dragonflight288]

@ wcholcombe

So, for clarification here, you're saying Zathrian is an abomination, not in the 'possessed by demons' sense, but in the 'poisoned by his grief and pain, and used magic as the instrument to harm generations of innocent lives' sense?