810 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

wcholcombe wrote...
By that sentiment, the Dalish, Chasind, and Qunari are the only ones who don't fall under Chantry title.

Dwarves also...for a Dwarf, the Mage-Templar conflict is a non-sense, they totally have no sentiment over Mages as Dalish, Andrasterians and Qunari do. Totally neutral. They do fear Mages but they don't give a damn...like Varric said "there are a lot of peoples who want to kill me in Merchant Guild, who have the time to fear apostates?" something like this, and....



What i mean is, they are not bias toward Mages, they are not effected by propaganda, they have no sentiment over the matter, they have no interests in the conflict, they only have interests in business...no matter who you are, if you have business with them you can talk business with them

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:16 .

[MakutaDax]

wcholcombe wrote...

MakutaDax wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

I just want to point out a few things.

A: There might be a small number of Dalish mages, but there's also a small number of Dalish in general. Even with such a limited population, the clans still have enough mages to swap between themselves and for all clans to have at least two mages in their midst at all times (the Keeper and the First). There's also some evidence that most clans either have more than just these two mages or have some way of quickly replacing them as Merithari didn't have to wait long to get a new First after Merrill's departure. So, maybe this abundance of mages in the context of their smaller population does show that the Dalish have a higher rate of mage births than other races and non-Dalish elves.

B: Yes, Merrill does say that a Keeper, and all Dalish mages by extenion, can be possessed. Then they are hunted down and dealt with. End of story. You're saying this like it's a bad thing, but isn't it a good example of how mages can be free, watched over, and dealt with if necessary? Dalish mages aren't imprisoned and they are placed in leader positions without falling to the magister's corruption and with, from what we've seen, low incidents of possession and if they are possessed, their clan (essentially their handlers) takes care of it. That's seems pretty middlegroundish to me.

C: Zathrien wasn't possessed. He used blood magic to bind a spirit to a wolf and created the werewolf's curse, but he did it without becoming an abomination. Pretty made skill for a mage to do all of that without falling pray to a demon. King of like, maybe, the Dalish mages are better equiped to handle such interactions... Except for maybe Merrill. Yeah, just ignore her. xD

Won't argue with A.

On B, yes the dalish handle it, but the problem is not nore has it ever been killing an abomination after it happens. It is the damage they do before you stop them.  It is good to have the idea of letting a mage be free until they mess up, but you also have to consider the 70 people that Meredith's sister killed before they stopped her, the entire castle full of servants at redcliff, all the templars and mages that were killed/turned into abominations before the tower was reclaimed in DAO, and what happens if the seeker is possessed, kills the entire clain before it is stopped, and wanders into a nearby village and goes on a rampage or kills more dalish.  Not disagreeing with your sentement, just pointing out the things to consider.

On Zathrien, no he wasn't an abomination in the literal since.  He was an abomination as a dalish though.  I mean I can go along with him cursing the Shems who did what they did to his family, but to have the curse continue, to have it infect humans that had nothing to do with his daughter, to have the curse affect and basically kill the dalish under his protection, and refuse to do what he knows would fix the problem.  The whole time claiming he had rediscovered the long life of the Elves, while his own people were paying the price, is abominable.  It is the very corrupt misuse of magic that is a concern.  Again, I fully agree with what Zathrien did to the pieces of garbage who raped his daughter, but that doesn't excuse everything else he allowed to happen.

I definitely appreciate your points and I agree with most. As far as the damage a Dalish abomination might do before being stopped, I think I kind of addressed that in my above post. Still, I agree that there's is certainly a lot of room for things to go wrong such as, as you pointed out, the entire clan being offed before they can stop the abomination. Still, I would say that the clans aooear to be better at handling their abominations than, say, the Templars as, if a Dalish abomination has caused some trouble, we've never really heard about it, which suggests that they must not be so widespread of a problem. Especially given the Dalish mage numbers, the abomination ratio must be very small.

As for Zathrian's corruption, I definitely agree with you. He went above and beyond securing his original vengence, especially when he went so far as to even lie to his own clan. Still, that's more of a "human" failing than his being corrupted by magic. I would say that his actions more closely resemble what the majority of magisters are accused of doing, i.e. using their power for gain and to cause undue harm to others. Even being so morally corrupted though, Zathrien didn't go out of his way to harm human villages or direct his clan to attack such settlements. So at least you could argure that despite being corrupted Zathrien did lead his clan in a way befitting of a Keeper for the better part of his, obviously, long life. This, to me, shows him to at least be better than like, 90% of the Tevinter magisters and roughly 85% of the Templar Order. xD

P.S. That last senntence is a joke, mostly, so no one firebomb me, please.

[wcholcombe]

MakutaDax wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

MakutaDax wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

To say that there is no middle ground is ignorant at best. Wether my idea was truly the middle ground is freely up for debate, I'm not god, I can't diffinitavely say what would work.

And this whole Dalish theory is flawed for two reasons,

A. For being so magically inclined the Dalish have realitivly small numbers of mages from what we've seen.

B. merril speaks of occasions where the keepers have been possessed and the clan had to hunt them... I mean remember zathrien?

I just want to point out a few things.

A: There might be a small number of Dalish mages, but there's also a small number of Dalish in general. Even with such a limited population, the clans still have enough mages to swap between themselves and for all clans to have at least two mages in their midst at all times (the Keeper and the First). There's also some evidence that most clans either have more than just these two mages or have some way of quickly replacing them as Merithari didn't have to wait long to get a new First after Merrill's departure. So, maybe this abundance of mages in the context of their smaller population does show that the Dalish have a higher rate of mage births than other races and non-Dalish elves.

B: Yes, Merrill does say that a Keeper, and all Dalish mages by extenion, can be possessed. Then they are hunted down and dealt with. End of story. You're saying this like it's a bad thing, but isn't it a good example of how mages can be free, watched over, and dealt with if necessary? Dalish mages aren't imprisoned and they are placed in leader positions without falling to the magister's corruption and with, from what we've seen, low incidents of possession and if they are possessed, their clan (essentially their handlers) takes care of it. That's seems pretty middlegroundish to me.

C: Zathrien wasn't possessed. He used blood magic to bind a spirit to a wolf and created the werewolf's curse, but he did it without becoming an abomination. Pretty made skill for a mage to do all of that without falling pray to a demon. King of like, maybe, the Dalish mages are better equiped to handle such interactions... Except for maybe Merrill. Yeah, just ignore her. xD

Won't argue with A.

On B, yes the dalish handle it, but the problem is not nore has it ever been killing an abomination after it happens. It is the damage they do before you stop them.  It is good to have the idea of letting a mage be free until they mess up, but you also have to consider the 70 people that Meredith's sister killed before they stopped her, the entire castle full of servants at redcliff, all the templars and mages that were killed/turned into abominations before the tower was reclaimed in DAO, and what happens if the seeker is possessed, kills the entire clain before it is stopped, and wanders into a nearby village and goes on a rampage or kills more dalish.  Not disagreeing with your sentement, just pointing out the things to consider.

On Zathrien, no he wasn't an abomination in the literal since.  He was an abomination as a dalish though.  I mean I can go along with him cursing the Shems who did what they did to his family, but to have the curse continue, to have it infect humans that had nothing to do with his daughter, to have the curse affect and basically kill the dalish under his protection, and refuse to do what he knows would fix the problem.  The whole time claiming he had rediscovered the long life of the Elves, while his own people were paying the price, is abominable.  It is the very corrupt misuse of magic that is a concern.  Again, I fully agree with what Zathrien did to the pieces of garbage who raped his daughter, but that doesn't excuse everything else he allowed to happen.

I definitely appreciate your points and I agree with most. As far as the damage a Dalish abomination might do before being stopped, I think I kind of addressed that in my above post. Still, I agree that there's is certainly a lot of room for things to go wrong such as, as you pointed out, the entire clan being offed before they can stop the abomination. Still, I would say that the clans aooear to be better at handling their abominations than, say, the Templars as, if a Dalish abomination has caused some trouble, we've never really heard about it, which suggests that they must not be so widespread of a problem. Especially given the Dalish mage numbers, the abomination ratio must be very small.

As for Zathrian's corruption, I definitely agree with you. He went above and beyond securing his original vengence, especially when he went so far as to even lie to his own clan. Still, that's more of a "human" failing than his being corrupted by magic. I would say that his actions more closely resemble what the majority of magisters are accused of doing, i.e. using their power for gain and to cause undue harm to others. Even being so morally corrupted though, Zathrien didn't go out of his way to harm human villages or direct his clan to attack such settlements. So at least you could argure that despite being corrupted Zathrien did lead his clan in a way befitting of a Keeper for the better part of his, obviously, long life. This, to me, shows him to at least be better than like, 90% of the Tevinter magisters and roughly 85% of the Templar Order. xD

P.S. That last senntence is a joke, mostly, so no one firebomb me, please.

I largely agree. On Zathrian, he wasn't corrupted by magic, he just gave in to his nature for revenge.  While he didn't go out of his way to attack humans, he did make the curse contagious and have it continue to affect humans, long after the perpetrators were dead.  My understanding is the werewolves you encounter are descended from the original humans he cursed--ie they had been bitten, but were not the original perpetrators.  That isn't much better than attacking villages.

As for the dalish handling abominations, I thought there was a conversation that talked about entire clans suddenly dissappearing and the dalish who went to investigate suspected the keeper had become an abomination and wiped them out. I could be misremembering though, it has been a while since I played DA2.

[Boycott Bioware]

Yes...i agree with MakutaDax

Zathrian have live for centuries...many peoples forget that. As a powerful mage who live for centuries, he didn't wage war with human, didn't attack human settlement, DIDN'T BECOME ABOMINATION....zathrian keep his clan away from human as possible. Even he live after the Warden side with him, he disappear with his clan after some conflict with human

That show the Dalish is extremely masterful in magic...for centuries Zathrian wandering around Thedas, we only know about Zathrian when the warden "accidentally" meet the clan

[Senya]

For every year since his curse began, Zathrian caused untold suffering on innocent people. He may not have started a war on humans, but that indicates that he knew he wouldn't get away with it, not because he had any moral objections to it.

It is better to judge Zathrian based on the people he had full power over with no consequences for his torture. There, you see him enjoying the pain of the werewolves and doesn't bat an eye at the people outside his clan that were bitten and turned.

[Boycott Bioware]

Sorry, my mistake, Zathrian didn't disappear with his clan, he disappear alone...

http://dragonage.wik...logue_(Origins)

"If Zathrian remains as the keeper of the clan, he goes on to lead the Dalish for quite some time until he begins entering disputes with humans. When he eventually just vanishes, his clan searches for him to find nothing but an indication that he disappeared of his own choice."

[wcholcombe]

Qistina wrote...

Yes...i agree with MakutaDax

Zathrian have live for centuries...many peoples forget that. As a powerful mage who live for centuries, he didn't wage war with human, didn't attack human settlement, DIDN'T BECOME ABOMINATION....zathrian keep his clan away from human as possible. Even he live after the Warden side with him, he disappear with his clan after some conflict with human

That show the Dalish is extremely masterful in magic...for centuries Zathrian wandering around Thedas, we only know about Zathrian when the warden "accidentally" meet the clan

If he lived for centuries it was because of the curse.  All the while not caring about the damage the curse was doing to innocent people that had nothing to do with his daughter.  So for centuries he let people become cursed into werewolves and lied about his long life.  He didn't even care enough about his own dalish to break the curse.  Zathrian is the embodyment of everything people fear from magic short of the abomination part.  Ya'll talk about the persecution of mages or dalish--the werewolves were people just randomly hunting or in the woods who got infected by a curse that was cast for something that happened centuries ago by entirely different people.

[Boycott Bioware]

almostinsane99 wrote...
For every year since his curse began, Zathrian caused untold suffering on innocent people. He may not have started a war on humans, but that indicates that he knew he wouldn't get away with it, not because he had any moral objections to it.

It is better to judge Zathrian based on the people he had full power over with no consequences for his torture. There, you see him enjoying the pain of the werewolves and doesn't bat an eye at the people outside his clan that were bitten and turned.

I never say Zathrian is good, even my Dalish Warden punish him...my point is to against propaganda about Mages

[Senya]

Zathrian is a poor example then. Sorry. I shudder to think about what would have happened if he somehow stayed immortal and went on to Dragon Age: Inquisition.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:39 .

[Boycott Bioware]

If he lived for centuries it was because of the curse. All the while not caring about the damage the curse was doing to innocent people that had nothing to do with his daughter. So for centuries he let people become cursed into werewolves and lied about his long life. He didn't even care enough about his own dalish to break the curse. Zathrian is the embodyment of everything people fear from magic short of the abomination part. Ya'll talk about the persecution of mages or dalish--the werewolves were people just randomly hunting or in the woods who got infected by a curse that was cast for something that happened centuries ago by entirely different people.

Now you are bias, you blame it on magic to justify Chantry view on magic

i. Zathrian is not good - this is my personal view
ii. he have his reason to curse the HUMAN centuries ago
iii. the curse is not widespread, it only contained in Brecilian Forest
iv. the Lady of the Forest who contain the curse for not spreading to the whole Thedas
v. the Lady is as immortal as he is
vi. the werewolves attack the Dalish to force Zathrian ending the curse - the curse backfire to Zathrian
vii a. Zathrian realize his mistake and willingly die
vii b. Zathrian live, the curse not end but he disappear
viii c. Zathrian betrayed by the Warden after killing werewolves and killed

So, for centuries, the curse is not widespread...and Zathrian didn't become abomination.

Another candidate of powerful Mage who live for centuries is Flemeth, for centuries Flemeth live in the Wild, did she become abomination and killing everyone in Thedas?

No

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 06:46 .

[dragonflight288]

Qistina wrote...

If he lived for centuries it was because of the curse. All the while not caring about the damage the curse was doing to innocent people that had nothing to do with his daughter. So for centuries he let people become cursed into werewolves and lied about his long life. He didn't even care enough about his own dalish to break the curse. Zathrian is the embodyment of everything people fear from magic short of the abomination part. Ya'll talk about the persecution of mages or dalish--the werewolves were people just randomly hunting or in the woods who got infected by a curse that was cast for something that happened centuries ago by entirely different people.

Now you are bias, you blame it on magic to justify Chantry view on magic

i. Zathrian is not good - this is my personal view
ii. he have his reason to curse the HUMAN centuries ago
iii. the curse is not widespread, it only contained in Brecilian Forest
iv. the Lady of the Forest who contain the curse for not spreading to the whole Thedas
v. the Lady is as immortal as he is
vi. the werewolves attack the Dalish to force Zathrian ending the curse - the curse backfire to Zathrian
vii a. Zathrian realize his mistake and willingly die
vii b. Zathrian live, the curse not end but he disappear
viii c. Zathrian betrayed by the Warden after killing werewolves and killed

So, for centuries, the curse is not widespread...and Zathrian didn't become abomination.

Another candidate of powerful Mage who live for centuries is Flemeth, for centuries Flemeth live in the Wild, did she become abomination and killing everyone in Thedas?

No

Possibly, according to all the legends, Flemeth is an abomination. According to Morrigan, she is something else entirely and isn't even human.

I think you make excellent points, but I don't think Flemeth is a good analogy to use.

[thats1evildude]

Anders and Fenris will also chime in during DA2 that Flemeth is not an abomination. And they would know, given their experience.

[Boycott Bioware]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Possibly, according to all the legends, Flemeth is an abomination. According to Morrigan, she is something else entirely and isn't even human.

I think you make excellent points, but I don't think Flemeth is a good analogy to use.

Whatever she is, Ferelden is saved because of her saving two Grey Warden recruit ass from the tower...and for centuries she does nothing harmful to the world

All the legends and stories about her are just legends and stories...if she really like those stories and Chantry propaganda, then Thedas do not exist anymore...because she's a powerful mage-abomination-something else whatever alien being

Aveline : I know the Witch of the Wild, a witch who kidnap and killing children
Flemeth : Bah...like i have nothing better to do....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That doesn't mean Flemeth was good. She saved Ferelden because she wanted the soul of an Old God for some reason. Even the Dalish are afraid of Flemeth. I think it's likely she killed most people she's ever met.

[Boycott Bioware]

Don't forget...The Mad Hermit...

He's a Blood Mage as according to Zathrian...he's crazy...but is he an abomination?

No

He just crazy and the only crime he did in the game is stealing the Grand Oak Acorn...

i. he's nice to you
ii. Morrigan can sense he have a very powerful magic
iii. he's not hostile unless you steal his things in his stump
iv. even you attack him, he use a trick and not attack back
v. he don't mind to trade the Acorn with you

he stay in that forest for unknown reason but he don't bother to harm anyone as a very powerful crazy Blood Mage

Modifié par Qistina, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:30 .

[wcholcombe]

Qistina wrote...

If he lived for centuries it was because of the curse. All the while not caring about the damage the curse was doing to innocent people that had nothing to do with his daughter. So for centuries he let people become cursed into werewolves and lied about his long life. He didn't even care enough about his own dalish to break the curse. Zathrian is the embodyment of everything people fear from magic short of the abomination part. Ya'll talk about the persecution of mages or dalish--the werewolves were people just randomly hunting or in the woods who got infected by a curse that was cast for something that happened centuries ago by entirely different people.

Now you are bias, you blame it on magic to justify Chantry view on magic What bias?  I am merely stating facts.

i. Zathrian is not good - this is my personal view Agreed
ii. he have his reason to curse the HUMAN centuries ago Agreed- My issue with this though was that he didn't limit it to the ones who hurt his daughter.  The Werewolves you encounter in DAO are not the one who raped his daughter.  The humans that originally became werewolves as the target of his curse are long dead and these people are paying the price for something they didn't do.
iii. the curse is not widespread, it only contained in Brecilian Forest-Yes, but it isn't limited to the humans who raped his daughter.  Anyone in the Brecillian Forest can be infected.
iv. the Lady of the Forest who contain the curse for not spreading to the whole Thedas
v. the Lady is as immortal as he is
vi. the werewolves attack the Dalish to force Zathrian ending the curse - the curse backfire to Zathrian
vii a. Zathrian realize his mistake and willingly die-No he didn't.  You have to convince him.  He knows where the curse affecting his people comes from, but pretends to have nothing to do with it to his people.  The lady of the Forest tries to convince him and you end up almost forcing him to do it.  The whole time he is telling his people that he has somehow magically rediscovered immortality when he knows this is patently false.
vii b. Zathrian live, the curse not end but he disappear
viii c. Zathrian betrayed by the Warden after killing werewolves and killed

So, for centuries, the curse is not widespread...and Zathrian didn't become abomination. I never said he was an abomination, I said his act was abominable.  The curse is widespread within the Brecelian forest to anyone who gets bitten.  If he had limited the curse to the people who raped his daughter fine.  But he didn't.

Another candidate of powerful Mage who live for centuries is Flemeth, for centuries Flemeth live in the Wild, did she become abomination and killing everyone in Thedas?As already stated flemeth is something else entirely and while I love her character, we don't have a clue what her end game is. There are plenty of good mages, the keeper in DA2 I am a big fan of, I hate Merril, I am a fan of the Magister in the comics, I am a fan of Wynne, I am a fan of Rhys, I think Allister is an abomination one way or the other. I like Morrigan.  Zathrian is just a horrible example of a good mage.  He lost his way in his grief and desire for revenge, and that is one of the things that makes magic in Thedas dangerous.  You don't have to become an abomination, that is a worst case scenario, but you can do a lot of harm while being in your right mind.

No

[Star fury]

wcholcombe wrote...

Won't argue with A.

On B, yes the dalish handle it, but the problem is not nore has it ever been killing an abomination after it happens. It is the damage they do before you stop them.  It is good to have the idea of letting a mage be free until they mess up, but you also have to consider the 70 people that Meredith's sister killed before they stopped her, the entire castle full of servants at redcliff, all the templars and mages that were killed/turned into abominations before the tower was reclaimed in DAO, and what happens if the seeker is possessed, kills the entire clain before it is stopped, and wanders into a nearby village and goes on a rampage or kills more dalish.  Not disagreeing with your sentement, just pointing out the things to consider.

On Zathrien, no he wasn't an abomination in the literal since.  He was an abomination as a dalish though.  I mean I can go along with him cursing the Shems who did what they did to his family, but to have the curse continue, to have it infect humans that had nothing to do with his daughter, to have the curse affect and basically kill the dalish under his protection, and refuse to do what he knows would fix the problem.  The whole time claiming he had rediscovered the long life of the Elves, while his own people were paying the price, is abominable.  It is the very corrupt misuse of magic that is a concern.  Again, I fully agree with what Zathrien did to the pieces of garbage who raped his daughter, but that doesn't excuse everything else he allowed to happen.

Only on bsn - Zathrian is not an abomination, but he's an abomination!

Modifié par Star fury, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:57 .

[wcholcombe]

Star fury wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Won't argue with A.

On B, yes the dalish handle it, but the problem is not nore has it ever been killing an abomination after it happens. It is the damage they do before you stop them.  It is good to have the idea of letting a mage be free until they mess up, but you also have to consider the 70 people that Meredith's sister killed before they stopped her, the entire castle full of servants at redcliff, all the templars and mages that were killed/turned into abominations before the tower was reclaimed in DAO, and what happens if the seeker is possessed, kills the entire clain before it is stopped, and wanders into a nearby village and goes on a rampage or kills more dalish.  Not disagreeing with your sentement, just pointing out the things to consider.

On Zathrien, no he wasn't an abomination in the literal since.  He was an abomination as a dalish though.  I mean I can go along with him cursing the Shems who did what they did to his family, but to have the curse continue, to have it infect humans that had nothing to do with his daughter, to have the curse affect and basically kill the dalish under his protection, and refuse to do what he knows would fix the problem.  The whole time claiming he had rediscovered the long life of the Elves, while his own people were paying the price, is abominable.  It is the very corrupt misuse of magic that is a concern.  Again, I fully agree with what Zathrien did to the pieces of garbage who raped his daughter, but that doesn't excuse everything else he allowed to happen.

Only on bsn - Zathrian is not an abomination, but he's an abomination!

I was being cute with my wording. His acts were abominable.  He isn't possessed by a demon, but he still did things that are truly abhorrent.

[Lokiwithrope]

He who fights no one has no allies.

[Lazy Jer]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

He who fights no one has no allies.

...but he also has less birthdays to remember.

[Boycott Bioware]

Those who stand for nothing, fall for everything

[Karlone123]

Qistina wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
By that sentiment, the Dalish, Chasind, and Qunari are the only ones who don't fall under Chantry title.

Dwarves also...for a Dwarf, the Mage-Templar conflict is a non-sense, they totally have no sentiment over Mages as Dalish, Andrasterians and Qunari do. Totally neutral. They do fear Mages but they don't give a damn...like Varric said "there are a lot of peoples who want to kill me in Merchant Guild, who have the time to fear apostates?" something like this, and....



What i mean is, they are not bias toward Mages, they are not effected by propaganda, they have no sentiment over the matter, they have no interests in the conflict, they only have interests in business...no matter who you are, if you have business with them you can talk business with them

The Dwarves might develop a new interest in the conflict, as they do business with the Templars on Lyrium trade. The Mage-Templar conflict could be a boon for business or damage profits. That would only be the one thing I can imagine that would attract the Dwarves attention.

[dragonflight288]

Qistina wrote...

Those who stand for nothing, fall for everything

We can change this too...

"Those who stand for nothing, will die for nothing."

[Boycott Bioware]

Karlone123 wrote...
The Dwarves might develop a new interest in the conflict, as they do business with the Templars on Lyrium trade. The Mage-Templar conflict could be a boon for business or damage profits. That would only be the one thing I can imagine that would attract the Dwarves attention.

Mages need lyrium too...well, blood is second option, surely not all Mages favor to cut their own wrist or sacrificing human, goat, anything that have blood...

Who know if Dwarves who behind everything...lol...lyrium is their most expensive commodity, but Chantry control it...so when there's a conflict, and the Chantry fall, they can sell to both Mages and Templars freely

[wcholcombe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ wcholcombe

So, for clarification here, you're saying Zathrian is an abomination, not in the 'possessed by demons' sense, but in the 'poisoned by his grief and pain, and used magic as the instrument to harm generations of innocent lives' sense?

Sorry just saw this.  Yeah basically I was being cute and saying he was being and abominable individual as opposed to a possessed mage.