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[wcholcombe]

MakutaDax wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Qistina wrote...

That is why i said in earlier post, there is no middle ground...

Mages are Human, Elves, Qunari and whatever races except Dwarves...each races have different culture, religion and sentiments

What "middle ground" here if it only favor one religion? What "middle ground" if it favor the oppressors? What "middle ground" if it only favor one sided view?

Mage-Templar problem is not Dalish problem, not other races problem...it's Chantry problem and human-Andrasterians problem

You guys want to enforce Chantry view of magic toward non-Andrasterians? You guys want to enforce Qunari view of Magic to non-Qunari?

That's not middle ground...that's BIAS

To really achieve peace is by...THROW AWAY ALL SENTIMENTS...and uphold justice

By that sentiment, the Dalish, Chasind, and Qunari are the only ones who don't fall under Chantry title.

City elves do, all the human nations-including Tevinter have templars.  In Asunder, the Lord Seeker talks about how he was formerly a templar in Tevinter, until the man he helped rise to position of Black Divine revealed that he had lied to and used him.  Dwarves don't, but again dwarves don't have magic and the Shapers have no history of them ever using magic.  The Qunari practice a much harsher treatment of mages anyway.  As for the Chasind, haven't read much about them lately, though I do recall reading a lot of stuff about the high occurence of Abominations among Chasind mages prior to DAO coming out.

It is a very noble ideal to leave the Dalish alone.  The modern 21st century person in me agrees largely with this sentiment.  However, if you also look at it from the perspective of most non dalish, do they really want a group of nomads wandering around their countryside with the Thedas equivalent of a nuclear bomb in their midst.  I am not saying that the Templars have the right to capture Dalish mages, I am simply playing devils advocate in this question, because it is a serious question.  Just like in the modern world, we police access to Nuclear arms and such, it is something to consider.

And I will agree that the Dalish have no issue with magic, they are basically a mageocracy.

Well, as far as the Chasind go, they work kind of like the Dalish. Every tribe is lead by a shaman, a mage. As for abominations... I've never heard of or read anything about a Chasind abomination, but I could have just missed something.

As for the Dalish bands wandering around with their mages, I can't recall hearing a single thing about a Dalish mage attacking a village or a Dalish abomination slaughtering townsfolk, but again, I might have missed something. If I haven't then I would argue that Dalish mages can't be viewed in such a negative light without any evidence of major occurences of possession. We already know that a Dalish clan will hunt down any of their mages who become abominations, which could explain why no Dalish abomination has ever been cited as the cause of some tragedy. So why can't we just say, "Well, the Dalish obviously have themselves under control..." and be done with it? Their way of doing things seems to get a better result than most others. lol

It is more referencing the lore prior to DAO coming out.  When the developers talked about chasind mages had a high level of possession.  The chasind are extremely different from the dalish.  They are much more violent when the witch of the wilds isn't commanding them.

As for the dalish, it isn't much of a leap to predict there have been abominations that have killed their clan.  The dalish do have a good system, but that doesn't make it infallible.

[Dermain]

wcholcombe wrote...



It is more referencing the lore prior to DAO coming out.  When the developers talked about chasind mages had a high level of possession.  The chasind are extremely different from the dalish.  They are much more violent when the witch of the wilds isn't commanding them.

http://dragonage.wik...Chasind_Wilders


Chasind Codex Entry

Sadly, I do not see where in either of those the idea of possession prone comes up.

wcholcombe wrote...
As for the dalish, it isn't much of a leap to predict there have been abominations that have killed their clan.  The dalish do have a good system, but that doesn't make it infallible.

At least the Dalish seem far more capable than their Tempalr counterparts...

Modifié par Myrkale, 25 octobre 2013 - 09:02 .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The reason why people cannot get along is very simple. An examination of history would reveal the reasons for this.

Everyone has their own agendas and their own bias. Everyone paints the world in their own brush. That or they all conform to some ideology to varying degrees.

When someone else has a different ideology or philosophy, it is seen as a challenge.

People either back out of a challenge or confront it.

That is why no one can get along.

Everyone wants to live their own life on their own terms. That terms might be dictated by an ideology or by responding to the ideology.

Plus, freedom is never bargained or compromised. It has always been fought.

The same goes for land ownership. It is ultimately fought over, either in a diplomat's boardroom or king's courtroom or battlefield.

& this also applies to ideological dominance. People of an ideology spread their ideology usually in order to validate their own belief in that ideology or because they have never been shown an alternative.

Getting along creates a plateau A stagnation, a compromise, an illusion of calmness. Very little challenge,
very little competition. As such, very little reason to improve, to
expand or to innovate. The problem arises when conflict is not contained.

That is why no one gets along forever & that is why conflict is almost always unavoidable and more often than not necessary.

So if we look at Thedas, it is a minefield. There are so many different types of people each with their own ideology / beliefs.

There's the Dalish elves, City elves, Andrastian Chantry with its followers, Qun and their followers, Circle of Magi with their fraternities, apostates, Chasind Wilders, Surface Dwarves, Underground Dwarves, Grey Wardens, etc.

Each one has their own agenda, their own goals, each one wants to live on their own terms, each one has its own version of reality interpretation (Qun with their teaching, Andrastian with their Chant, Dalish with their lore)...

It is nigh impossible that a Pangea-ish land like Thedas with such diversity & variety get along. Conflict is inevitable.

If perhaps the world of Dragon Age is a world of island with considerable distance instead of one mass then yes, we would all get along because mixing, exhange, rejection, acceptance and acclimitization of ideas occurs slower.

Homogenity is the key to getting along and have a middle ground. & in Thedas that is impossible because of its diversity.

The only way you can have a middle ground or order in a place like Thedas is if you have a powerful organization able to enforce law and order over everyone else. Even that would only mean an illusion of middle ground since everyone is being under something.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vilegrim wrote...

The circles where a (admitedly ancient world, roman style high status chattel) slavery.   With forced conversion, forced self loathing, and all this enforced by the threat of blood magic and annulment (aka genocide on a certain class of individual) for thsi to work ,the mages would have to be able to annul the templars, the andrastraian faith would have to be optional, marriage would have to be allowed, leaving the circle after apprenticeship would have to be permitted, and non ambomination free mages would have to be allowed to make the choice to not come into the system at all (so no more hunting down and killing alternate traditions.

What?
There is no forced self-loathing.
Neither do I hear anything about foced conversions.

You ideas are redicolous and unworkable. Quit living in a fantasy world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I can't recall hearing a single thing about a Dalish mage attacking a village or a Dalish abomination slaughtering townsfolk

And why do you think you should? I don't think templars see a difference between a dalish abomination and a non-dalish one, given that they both look the same. I don't think they can tell.

Also, Dalish tend to make camps far from humans and in forests. So no ownder you don't hear anything.

So in other words, when a dalish Keeper becomes an abomination, slaughters the clan then wanders into some remote village, the templars have no way of knowing who that abomination was before.

[Jaison1986]

@The sin

In fact, equality can be achieved if people just tried hard enough. The problem is that people in Thedas are culturaly taught to be ignorant and close minded. Rivain is prime example that compromise can be achieved as long as society and their leader are willing to accept new ideas. There elves are pretty much treated with social equality, mages in there are respected then rather feared and hated. They are accepting (if not friendly) to dalish elfs that live in the country. So much that the dalish in there are wondering if they should settle permanently. The problems only start is when major groups try to force their view and lifestyle on the people. The Chantry did that on Rivain and it led to genocide twice already. I think that if we could take these major groups out of the picture entirely (the Qun, the Chantry, Tevinter), we could finally have an chance to teach people to be more accepting of each other, since there will be no more supersticion or bias to hold them back.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 25 octobre 2013 - 12:32 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Equality doesn't mean justice, and equality is a dream, it can never achieved. Communism cannot be realized in the world. In fantasy world maybe, but in real world cannot. It's a utopia

No one is equal

[Br3admax]

Qistina wrote...

Equality doesn't mean justice, and equality is a dream, it can never achieved. Communism cannot be realized in the world. In fantasy world maybe, but in real world cannot. It's a utopia

No one is equal

Uh huh, tha's nice. Too bad that this has just about nothing to do with finding a middle ground. 

[Boycott Bioware]

it have...

Many peoples consider being equal as middle ground, it is not...making things equal can lead to oppression and injustice

The ancient peoples already study about it such as Yin Yang, the two opposite values, they are not equal, there's a white dot in black side and black dot in the white side, it's about dominant and non-dominant. We seek balance, the world never equal. That's Tao

There will always be the rich and the poor, the strong and the weak, there will always be opposition, the opposite. One value give the value of the other. If one value vanish or not exist, then the other vanish too because it have nothing to be compared of

The wise one know the value of things and balance it...good have it's value because of evil, evil have it's value because of good...to balance it out is by upholding justice

Equality is not in this world, but in other world, in the Eyes Of God

[Lazy Jer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

The circles where a (admitedly ancient world, roman style high status chattel) slavery.   With forced conversion, forced self loathing, and all this enforced by the threat of blood magic and annulment (aka genocide on a certain class of individual) for thsi to work ,the mages would have to be able to annul the templars, the andrastraian faith would have to be optional, marriage would have to be allowed, leaving the circle after apprenticeship would have to be permitted, and non ambomination free mages would have to be allowed to make the choice to not come into the system at all (so no more hunting down and killing alternate traditions.

What?
There is no forced self-loathing.
Neither do I hear anything about foced conversions.

You ideas are redicolous and unworkable. Quit living in a fantasy world.

Ironic statement, considering the genre of the game.

[Boycott Bioware]

In my earlier post, i wrote that we will strive until there is no more falsehood, oppression and evil,when that happen, the world will reach it's end

Yin Yang and Karma have it's own fallacy, that is it is meant to be eternal, nothing is eternal. There will always be struggle, and each value will strive to reach dominance. When the opposite value vanish, then it is an end because there will be no value...nothing to be compared with.

Everything will reach it's end, and afterward, eternity.....

[Dermain]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



What?
There is no forced self-loathing.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Keili
She disagrees.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Neither do I hear anything about foced conversions.

Why were the Dales conquered by an Exalted March?

Oh right...they didn't worship Andraste! Kill them all until they worship her!

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You ideas are redicolous and unworkable. Quit living in a fantasy world.

.....................

Modifié par Myrkale, 26 octobre 2013 - 09:41 .

[n7stormrunner]

don't you just love irony

[DarthLaxian]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

I understand that this is a hot button issue but its time we had a talk about the less emotional side of the Mage Templar issue.... That the Mages and Templars are two sides of a coin that need each other.

Templars are not only meant to watch the mages, they are their protectors aswell. The Templars protect mages not only from the threat of religious fanatics, but Templars also serve to protect the mages should abominations or blood mages come knocking. The Harrowing is a trial by fire, but so is combat in general now isn't it?

Andraste was not against mages, just Tevinter and blood magic. Mages are unfortunately highly dangerous individuals. Their powers are in themselves dangerous. They are not inherently evil, simply dangerous. And, the people who do not posses this gift are suspicious, probably reasonably so. To say "The mages should be free!" is like saying that guns should be everywhere. It's an idiotic notion, but the virtue of freedom is a dear one to the Western world (perhaps others as well, simply speaking from experience)

Safety and Freedom are brothers, inseparable and constantly vying for power. Both are necessary for a health, viable, non-oppressive society.

The Circle was the best solution, and while they have been dissolved, they were the only workable solution and best protected the freedom and the lives of the majority and taught the mages how to control the immense power at their disposal'

I suppose the point is.........

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONG!

because if you give one people power over another, they will most likely start oppressing the ones they have been empowered against (oh: and templars are not rational people IMHO - most of them are religious zealots!) see Milgram-Experiment (!)

and no: the circles were not the best solution - they were the easy solution (and a very faulty one, as long as the chantry did more or less NOTHING TO PUNISH TEMPLARS who went to far - like beating their charges, raping them, forcing them into tranquility etc.)

greetings LAX
ps: i can accept that templars are necessary, but not like prison wardens, more like special-police (every bigger town gets some and they only hunt mages that have been proven to be dangerous to the public...that would be fair - oh and they collect you mages for their education (make that mandatory - meaning mages are not free until they have learned to control and use their powers responsibly!) - along with at least one mage (meaning: they are no longer exclusively in charge - because IMHO putting a non-mage in charge of mages is just wrong!)

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]Myrkale wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...



What?
There is no forced self-loathing.[/quote]

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Keili
She disagrees.[/quote]
And the hundred other mages we meet, who shows no signs of self-loathing, they of course doesn't count. I mean, they don't support your ****** claim, so how could they possibly count, right?

[quote]Myrkale wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Neither do I hear anything about foced conversions.[/quote]

Why were the Dales conquered by an Exalted March?

Oh right...they didn't worship Andraste! Kill them all until they worship her![/quote]
Yeah, that is not what was happening at all. You don't have a very good grasp on the lore do you?[/quote]

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 26 octobre 2013 - 11:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Myrkale wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



What?
There is no forced self-loathing.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Keili
She disagrees.

Prove it is forced.

Why were the Dales conquered by an Exalted March?

Becasue they sacked Val Royaux and pissed off the entire human race.

[Bizantura]

People can rationalize fear all they want and do all in their power not to feel it, it will allways lead to oppression of what one fears. No peace is possible within that scenario. The only thing history learns is that the next oppressors where the previous oppressed. That circle is garanteed, just look at history!!

The west is as free as the north, south and east. It is a learned fallacy and boy do we like our fallacies.

[CroGamer002]

After reading 9 pages of this thread, I couldn't resist and give my own take.


For the middle ground to be achieved, the best idea should be a dire reformation of the Circle but also the Templar's.

Mages should get more freedoms and rights, like get visits and get to visit their family, mages that pass Harrowing should be able to choose to live inside Circle Tower or anywhere outside and etc.

However they should still get locked in the Circle until passing Harrowing or made Tranquil, as uneducated and untrained mage can easily fall pray to demons. As well they should still be watched upon, be registered as a mage and keep frequent contact with the Circle if living outside of it's compound.

They are a too big potential threat to everyone, even if they do not choose to harm.


Templar's also need some reformation as their ways are proving to be too rigid and totalitarian. Though I don't have any idea how to fix that, besides encouraging Templar's to cooperate with the mages then to simply order around and intimidate them.
What they overall need to do is to be more flexible and loosen their grip on the mages.

Someone still needs to watch over the mages, for everyone's safety.


It's not the happiest solution, but it's the most reasonable without stopping over ethics and morality.

[Boycott Bioware]

"Circle Mages and Templars" is as according to Andrasterian, it cannot be applied to ALL races and religion. That's bias

That is my point.

It's only one sided, bias, all these talk about Circle and Templar reformation, change and all are just bias. Not everyone in Thedas are Andrasterians

That is why there is no middle ground here...middle what?

[Boycott Bioware]

It is like USA meddling with Middle East politic, who is USA to meddling with other peoples affairs? They can claim, "for democracy", "to fight terrorism", "to find and destroy WMD", "for the safety of the world"...then invade other peoples country, occupy their land, topple their leader, take their resources, station their army.........what give them right to do so? They spread propagandas, making Islamphobia in USA and Europe, playing western peoples fear on Islam, making the west support them....then they talk about "middle ground", "let us sit down in this meeting, settle our problem....you must give your oil to us, you must let our army be in your land, you must have this puppet leader we give you...then we have peace"

Similar thing here....Circle system and Templar is Andrasterian system, why force it upon non-Andrasterians? That is injustice. Why enforce your law, your belief upon other peoples. They play propaganda to make peoples fear Mages and use that fear to control the peoples, "Mages need to be contained because they are dangerous, so let our Templars march in your country and hunt them out, lock them...then give your lyrium to us, let us establish Chantry in your country and convert you, let us decide who become your leader...then we will have peace"

Middle ground based on one religion and based on one sided term? That is not middle ground, that's bull****!

Modifié par Qistina, 26 octobre 2013 - 01:53 .

[CroGamer002]

But Andrasterians settle most of Thedas and have most followers. With that, they also have most often and biggest problems with the mages and demons.

So them reforming the Circle and Templar's is in the best interests even for the non-Andrasterians. Because it brings stability and less demons to the continent.

Otherwise, instability and wars of the Andrasterians kingdoms will effect everyone else negatively maybe directly( for example battleground could be in Dalish clan territory) but definitely indirectly( for example lot's of loss in trade for the Orzammar with the outside world).

[Boycott Bioware]

Mesina2 wrote...
But Andrasterians settle most of Thedas and have most followers. With that, they also have most often and biggest problems with the mages and demons.

They are the source of the problem...there is no such problem for the Dalish and Dwarves.

Dwarven kingdom was the largest before Tevinter...i never hear Dwarves have such problem. Arlathan also the most sophisticated kingdom, not have such problem. All Elves was Magisters, they build their kingdom by Magic. No such problem

All these belief and sentiment about Mages comes from the Chantry

So them reforming the Circle and Templar's is in the best interests even for the non-Andrasterians. Because it brings stability and less demons to the continent.

That system is already failed, all that happen show that system is unreliable, and it is bias. It is not the best interest for all, it only favor Andrasterians

Otherwise, instability and wars of the Andrasterians kingdoms will effect everyone else negatively maybe directly( for example battleground could be in Dalish clan territory) but definitely indirectly( for example lot's of loss in trade for the Orzammar with the outside world).

What give them right to have war in other peoples land? It is their problem, not everyone problem. The problem started with their system and their religion.

There is no middle ground here, the Circle must be destroyed and Andrasterian must stop being arrogant and busy body. The war happen because of that, and that must be stopped

[Reaverwind]

Qistina wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
But Andrasterians settle most of Thedas and have most followers. With that, they also have most often and biggest problems with the mages and demons.

They are the source of the problem...there is no such problem for the Dalish and Dwarves.

Dwarven kingdom was the largest before Tevinter...i never hear Dwarves have such problem. Arlathan also the most sophisticated kingdom, not have such problem. All Elves was Magisters, they build their kingdom by Magic. No such problem

No one knows enough about Arlathan to make such a statement. It is entirely possible that Arlathan precipitated their own downfall, and the Dalish later placed all of the blame on the Tevinters.

[CroGamer002]

Qistina wrote...

It is like USA meddling with Middle East politic, who is USA to meddling with other peoples affairs? They can claim, "for democracy", "to fight terrorism", "to find and destroy WMD", "for the safety of the world"...then invade other peoples country, occupy their land, topple their leader, take their resources, station their army.........what give them right to do so? They spread propagandas, making Islamphobia in USA and Europe, playing western peoples fear on Islam, making the west support them....then they talk about "middle ground", "let us sit down in this meeting, settle our problem....you must give your oil to us, you must let our army be in your land, you must have this puppet leader we give you...then we have peace"

Similar thing here....Circle system and Templar is Andrasterian system, why force it upon non-Andrasterians? That is injustice. Why enforce your law, your belief upon other peoples. They play propaganda to make peoples fear Mages and use that fear to control the peoples, "Mages need to be contained because they are dangerous, so let our Templars march in your country and hunt them out, lock them...then give your lyrium to us, let us establish Chantry in your country and convert you, let us decide who become your leader...then we will have peace"

Middle ground based on one religion and based on one sided term? That is not middle ground, that's bull****!

This two things are NOT even remotely similar.

For starters, US invasions are illegal and mainly not supported by international community but are incapable to stop it. And no such middle ground deals are made with occupied Middle Eastern countries, instead those terms are flat out enforced without consent of the local populace and leadership.

This example would fit more with Olreasian Empire and Fereldand or Humans and Elves issues, not Mages and Templar's issue.

Why? Because Muslims are just ordinary people. They don't possess some dangerous abilities that can destroy everything in sight with little effort and resistance, while also be turned into an abomination unwillingly and be even worse.
They're simply being accused for all being radicals ready to bomb infidels for Alah. Which is an obvious propaganda, as well every other religiuos and non-religious collective group can have some radical minority capable of same.

Mages in other hand, are dangerous simply due to their magic that they're borned with. They can destroy anything in their sight with little effort and resistance and become an abomination, which is even way worse.
That's not a Chantry propaganda, that's a fact shown many times both in games, books, comics, live action series and anime. We weren't told mages are capable of this dangers, we seen them with our very eyes in action.

Even a lot of mages recognize this and are for the Circle, without self-loathing while opposing Templar brutality.

[Angrywolves]

Middle ground huh?
Kill all the blood mages and malificars, mages controlled by or in cahoots with demons.
Kill all the Red Templars, find a way to neutralize red lyrium, set up an agency independent from the chantry to control the lyrium trade, kill all all the other templars who are psychopaths who want to kill innocent mages.
Set up a policing agency consisting of mages and templars to hunt down future blood mages and future malificars.
That enough middle ground for you ?
Rotfl.