1420 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

I don't mean to sound like a Chantry defender, but I guess it is just that they seem to be the dog everyone is wanting to kick at the moment, however everyone keeps saying the Chantry is corrupt.

Who and or what are you referring to as being corrupt?

The divine??  To my knowledge she hasn't done anything corrupt, she is trying to reform the chantry which for an organization such as itself is quite the painful process.

The Templars??  Setting aside for the moment that most of them appear to have left the chantry with the nullification of the accords, I haven't seen evidence of them being outright corrupt.  The Lord Seeker does and wants done some very questionable acts, but it isn't like he is accumulating personal power through these acts, he is doing what he believes is in the best interest of Thedas not he himself.  And no, I am in no way a fan of the Lord Seeker, but that doesn't mean he is some power hungry corrupt politician.

The Reverend Mother in Lothering??  Seriously I have seen this example because she is witholding of a blessing if you don't make a donation to the Chantry.  Sorry, people gotta eat.  There isn't anything wrong with expecting you to make a small contribution in exchange for recieving her blessing.  She provides a service and you make a donation in return, I don't see the problem here.

Meredith??  Because she accepts a bribe in Kirkwall to let you into the city?  As I have said elsewhere, she isn't living it up at the Gallows.  Her room is plain.  The bribe was probably to help support the expense of letting you into the city and feeding you.

Grand Cleric Elthina?  I don't know of anything she did that was corrupt, other than trying to play peace keeper between the mages and templars and trying to help Sebastian deal with his issues, I can't think of anything she does you could remotely call corupt?

Because the Chantry has misrepresented Andraste etc etc etc?  If, and I am saying if, the Chantry is not teaching the truth of what happened with Andraste, the 1st blight, Andraste's view on mages or being a mage herself, etc etc.  Do you honestly think anyone today 1,000 years after the fact, consciously is aware of the truth and seeking to cover it up?  Its not like Drakon got together with the founders of the Chantry and the founder of the Imperial Chantry which predates the chantry, and wrote down a journal of how they were going to misconstrue events and kept it around as evidence that the Divine keeps locked up in a chest under her bed.  If the original founders of the Chantry changed historical fact, the current members of the Chantry are ignorant of those changes and are teaching what they beleive to be accurate.  Even if they question some of the authenticity, they aren't actively participating in a coverup.

Because we are Pro Dalish?  Ok, if you don't like the Chantry because you think the Dalish were innocently defending themselves when the big bad Chantry called an exalted march and destroyed the dales fine.  We don't know at this time and I doubt we will ever know with 100% accuracy what happened with that war.  However, not liking the chantry because of its past again does not make them corrupt.  The reverend mother teaching the history of the Chantry isn't saying the dalish are blood thirsty barbarians because she is corrupt, it is what she has been taught.  It no more makes the Chantry corrupt than it makes the Dalish corrupt for having a very atagonistic attitude to non dalish.

Again, not saying the Chantry doesn't have problems, just curious where this attitude of the Chantry being the most corrupt thing in Thedas comes from?

[Sir DeLoria]

The Chantry as it is, is oppressive and ignorant.

The Templars should be an independent order free of chantry control.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think the bribe to get into the city was something that ever reached Meredith. Most people probably consider her corrupt because the Kirkwall Circle was being filled with increasing abuses at various levels and she was overstepping her bounds of Templar authority by influencing how the city was ruled.

As for the Chantry as a whole, I suspect a lot of people prefer to think of powerful organized religion as the bad guys. Especially with things like the Circle Mages or any of the human rights problems the Andrastian nations have.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:43 .

[wcholcombe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think the bribe to get into the city was something that ever reached Meredith's level. Most people probably consider her corrupt because the Kirkwall Circle was being filled with increasing abuses at various levels and she was overstepping her bounds of Templar authority by influencing how the city was ruled.

As for the Chantry as a whole, I suspect a lot of people prefer to think of powerful organized religion as the bad guys. Especially with things like the Circle Mages or any of the human rights problems the Andrastian nations have.

True but that is more being a dictator or hard liner, it isn't actually being corrupt.  The mages aren't being put in the circle in order to increase the power of the Chantry or of the Divine.

Meredith was being a fascist dictator in many ways, but she wasn't being corrupt.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well if she wasn't properly protecting the mages in her charge and assuming a role that Templar Knight Commanders were never meant to have, then I think it counts as corruption, at least on her part personally. Even if she does believe she's doing what it best for Kirkwall.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .

[Lord Raijin]

The Chantry is a dangerous narcissistic religion that's why it's so corrupted.

[Br3admax]

Necanor wrote...

The Chantry as it is, is oppressive and ignorant.

The Templars should be an independent order free of chantry control.

I guess it'll feed, house, clothe, and lyrium fill itself. 

[Wulfram]

The Templars have a fair bit of corruption going on. Mostly people abusing their power over mages, though the apparent ability of money and influence to keep them at bay in DA2 is also a type of corruption. And the lyrium smuggling stuff - even Meredith gets involved what with the Idol.

The rest of the Chantry, they don't seem especially corrupt. Though Dorothea's involvement in Leliana's song is sort of questionable for a future Divine. And of course Petrice's actions don't really reflect well on the Chantry.

edit: you could view the Chantry's endorsement of the Orlesian occupation of Fereldan as a form of corruption, perhaps.

Modifié par Wulfram, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:08 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

A bunch of preachy, matriarchal zealots who would like nothing better than to seriously limit the freedom of one out of three player classes. Gee I wonder why people have problems with them. They are a fantasy version of the medieval Catholic church, complete with their idiot Pope-figure.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:07 .

[wcholcombe]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

A bunch of preachy, matriarchal zealots who would like nothing better than to seriously limit the freedom of one out of three player classes. Gee I wonder why people have problems with them. They are a fantasy version of the medieval Catholic church, complete with their idiot Pope-figure.

I didn't say have a problem with. I said corrupt.  Not liking the Chantry is fine.  As is not liking the Qunari, Mages the Dalish, Tevinters, Orlesians, Anderfels,  Fereldens, Dwarves, Free Marchers, Rivani, and Antivans.

I could writeup an opinion blasting any of those groups for any number of reasons I choose to like or not like them.  My question was relating to the charge of being corrupt.

Example of corrupt:  The Imperial Chantry outlaws use of blood magic.  Yet their Black Divine uses blood magic to stay in power as do many of their Magisters.

[Trikormadenadon]

cor·rup·tion [kuh-ruhp-shuhn] noun
1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.

The Templars certainly fit into #2 & 3 based on their actions throughout the two games, especially DA2.

The Chantry itself has had many members that fit one or more of the definitions of corruption but the Chantry as a whole may not fit the bill.

[Ap0crypha]

The problem probably lies with the clergy--sure, there are Templars who abuse their power, but do you know who endorses it? The sisters.

Who brainwashes the little kiddie mages into believing they're monsters? The sisters.

Who attacked the Dalish because they wouldn't convert to worship of Andraste? The Divine.

Who considers another exalt on Orzammar, depending on your actions there? The Divine.

And this isn't even going into the individual actions of Sister/Mother Petrice and Dorothea, or the inaction of Grand Cleric Elthina.

So while the clergy does have some good goals--the mages ARE dangerous, after all, and DO need to be supervised--they seem to have either been corrupted by power, or become so fanatically devotional that they've become Knight Templars, and as a result the other branches of the Chantry are corrupted as well.

[wcholcombe]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

cor·rup·tion [kuh-ruhp-shuhn] noun
1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.

The Templars certainly fit into #2 & 3 based on their actions throughout the two games, especially DA2.

The Chantry itself has had many members that fit one or more of the definitions of corruption but the Chantry as a whole may not fit the bill.

2 and 3 aren't rampant among Templars.  You can't say they are being depraved if they are killing apostates if that is what they are trained to do.  Templar behaviour fits with the morals of the time.  You can't look at Thedas with our 21st century world view of right and wrong.  Hell, in Ferelden you can murder people and no one will say anything as long as it doesn't occur in Denerim where the guards are more concerned with just keeping peace than they are enforcing laws.

[wcholcombe]

Ap0crypha wrote...

The problem probably lies with the clergy--sure, there are Templars who abuse their power, but do you know who endorses it? The sisters.

Who brainwashes the little kiddie mages into believing they're monsters? The sisters.

Who attacked the Dalish because they wouldn't convert to worship of Andraste? The Divine.

Who considers another exalt on Orzammar, depending on your actions there? The Divine.

And this isn't even going into the individual actions of Sister/Mother Petrice and Dorothea, or the inaction of Grand Cleric Elthina.

So while the clergy does have some good goals--the mages ARE dangerous, after all, and DO need to be supervised--they seem to have either been corrupted by power, or become so fanatically devotional that they've become Knight Templars, and as a result the other branches of the Chantry are corrupted as well.

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end.

The Dales debate.  I could seriously argue this point but it won't matter, you probably accept only the Dalish point of view on it.

As for the exalted marches against the dwarves--A dwarf was preaching the chant and was murdered or humans are being kidnapped by the dwarves to turn into Golems or Dagna opens a circle in Orzammar.  The circle one you could argue is corruption--wanting to maintane control of mages, but the other two aren't.

[Ap0crypha]

wcholcombe wrote...

Ap0crypha wrote...

The problem probably lies with the clergy--sure, there are Templars who abuse their power, but do you know who endorses it? The sisters.

Who brainwashes the little kiddie mages into believing they're monsters? The sisters.

Who attacked the Dalish because they wouldn't convert to worship of Andraste? The Divine.

Who considers another exalt on Orzammar, depending on your actions there? The Divine.

And this isn't even going into the individual actions of Sister/Mother Petrice and Dorothea, or the inaction of Grand Cleric Elthina.

So while the clergy does have some good goals--the mages ARE dangerous, after all, and DO need to be supervised--they seem to have either been corrupted by power, or become so fanatically devotional that they've become Knight Templars, and as a result the other branches of the Chantry are corrupted as well.

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end.

The Dales debate.  I could seriously argue this point but it won't matter, you probably accept only the Dalish point of view on it.

As for the exalted marches against the dwarves--A dwarf was preaching the chant and was murdered or humans are being kidnapped by the dwarves to turn into Golems or Dagna opens a circle in Orzammar.  The circle one you could argue is corruption--wanting to maintane control of mages, but the other two aren't.

Teaching mages that they're dangerous is fine, because they are. Treating them like monsters or, in the case of several Kirkwall Templars, subhumans, isn't, because that causes the whole "Let Me Be Evil" thing to come into play.

Yeah, I know there are two sides to the Dales debate and I agree, it's not really worth arguing about now. Everyone's argued both sides and it still wasn't resolved. I'm just pointing out that the Chantry was pretty quick to attack their neighbors and once-allies, first by propaganda and then with actual violence. Which, to me, says they're of the "shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you, talk later" variety, which isn't a good philosophy for anyone with military power to have.

Looking back, I see the dwarf one was a pretty bad example. Sorry.

[Trikormadenadon]

wcholcombe wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

cor·rup·tion [kuh-ruhp-shuhn] noun
1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.

The Templars certainly fit into #2 & 3 based on their actions throughout the two games, especially DA2.

The Chantry itself has had many members that fit one or more of the definitions of corruption but the Chantry as a whole may not fit the bill.

2 and 3 aren't rampant among Templars.  You can't say they are being depraved if they are killing apostates if that is what they are trained to do.  Templar behaviour fits with the morals of the time.  You can't look at Thedas with our 21st century world view of right and wrong.  Hell, in Ferelden you can murder people and no one will say anything as long as it doesn't occur in Denerim where the guards are more concerned with just keeping peace than they are enforcing laws.

Right and wrong is not limited by a date stamp. Just becasue a society thinks it is ok to take certain actions does not make those actions right. This is true in real life today, real life 2000 years ago and/or Thedas. If it is right, it is right, if it is wrong, it is wrong. Thus, Templar behaviour fitting with the morals of the time in not relevent to anything. The fact of the matter is that much of what we have been shown as the typical behaviour of Templars fit  #2 & 3 of the definition of corruption. The very concept of the Templars is both a moral perversion and perversion of integrity, as there is no integrity in isloating people based on what they MIGHT do some time in the future. That is basically the same as putting everyone in the world in prison because everyone is capable of murder.

[wcholcombe]

Ap0crypha wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Ap0crypha wrote...

The problem probably lies with the clergy--sure, there are Templars who abuse their power, but do you know who endorses it? The sisters.

Who brainwashes the little kiddie mages into believing they're monsters? The sisters.

Who attacked the Dalish because they wouldn't convert to worship of Andraste? The Divine.

Who considers another exalt on Orzammar, depending on your actions there? The Divine.

And this isn't even going into the individual actions of Sister/Mother Petrice and Dorothea, or the inaction of Grand Cleric Elthina.

So while the clergy does have some good goals--the mages ARE dangerous, after all, and DO need to be supervised--they seem to have either been corrupted by power, or become so fanatically devotional that they've become Knight Templars, and as a result the other branches of the Chantry are corrupted as well.

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end.

The Dales debate.  I could seriously argue this point but it won't matter, you probably accept only the Dalish point of view on it.

As for the exalted marches against the dwarves--A dwarf was preaching the chant and was murdered or humans are being kidnapped by the dwarves to turn into Golems or Dagna opens a circle in Orzammar.  The circle one you could argue is corruption--wanting to maintane control of mages, but the other two aren't.

Teaching mages that they're dangerous is fine, because they are. Treating them like monsters or, in the case of several Kirkwall Templars, subhumans, isn't, because that causes the whole "Let Me Be Evil" thing to come into play.

Yeah, I know there are two sides to the Dales debate and I agree, it's not really worth arguing about now. Everyone's argued both sides and it still wasn't resolved. I'm just pointing out that the Chantry was pretty quick to attack their neighbors and once-allies, first by propaganda and then with actual violence. Which, to me, says they're of the "shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you, talk later" variety, which isn't a good philosophy for anyone with military power to have.

Looking back, I see the dwarf one was a pretty bad example. Sorry.

I can buy the Templars actions in Kirkwall were bad, but that place was so screwed up no one has any moral high ground to stand on.It was a vicious cycle.  The templars are coming down hard on the mages because they think they are blood mages, turns out they are blood mages, but it was only because the templars were so hard on them, but that was only because there were so many blood mages running around..............and so it continues.

[Medhia Nox]

Because of a bad day in Sunday school or their mom wouldn't let them read those rebellious new age books on teen magic.

[Melca36]

When they ignore Templars sexually abusing mages & have sisters soliciting money from the poor and prostitutes something is wrong. I would have liked them had I seen them doing something.....

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http://i1183.photobu...sy.jpg~original

Modifié par Melca36, 21 octobre 2013 - 10:59 .

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end. 

That's how The Warden can interpret spreading the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world - as an attempt to spread their power and dominion, especially when we know how violently hostile some Andrastians can be towards heathens. And the Chantry clearly gets power and influence, including with their docturine that templars have dominion over mages by divine right, as well as preaching that it's the Maker's docturine that mages belong in Circle Towers, since it leaves virtually everyone with magical talent right under their thumb.

[wcholcombe]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

cor·rup·tion [kuh-ruhp-shuhn] noun
1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.

The Templars certainly fit into #2 & 3 based on their actions throughout the two games, especially DA2.

The Chantry itself has had many members that fit one or more of the definitions of corruption but the Chantry as a whole may not fit the bill.

2 and 3 aren't rampant among Templars.  You can't say they are being depraved if they are killing apostates if that is what they are trained to do.  Templar behaviour fits with the morals of the time.  You can't look at Thedas with our 21st century world view of right and wrong.  Hell, in Ferelden you can murder people and no one will say anything as long as it doesn't occur in Denerim where the guards are more concerned with just keeping peace than they are enforcing laws.

Right and wrong is not limited by a date stamp. Just becasue a society thinks it is ok to take certain actions does not make those actions right. This is true in real life today, real life 2000 years ago and/or Thedas. If it is right, it is right, if it is wrong, it is wrong. Thus, Templar behaviour fitting with the morals of the time in not relevent to anything. The fact of the matter is that much of what we have been shown as the typical behaviour of Templars fit  #2 & 3 of the definition of corruption. The very concept of the Templars is both a moral perversion and perversion of integrity, as there is no integrity in isloating people based on what they MIGHT do some time in the future. That is basically the same as putting everyone in the world in prison because everyone is capable of murder.

lol sorry let me catch my breath.  You are honestly arguing that right and wrong isn't a Social concept?  Seriously?  The very idea of right and wrong is a social construct.  It is a product of social interaction.  It is why we as humans have a moral idea of right and wrong and wolves killing each other over a recent kill don't.  Seriously?  Right and wrong doesn't have a date stamp.......  2000 years ago, they had a myriad of different ideas of right and wrong dependent upon what culture of the world you found yourself in.  Hell, 50 years ago they had a seriously different idea of right and wrong.  It is seriously pointless to judge the actions of a group or person outside of the context of their time.

[wcholcombe]

Melca36 wrote...

When they ignore Templars sexually abusing mages & have sisters soliciting money from the poor and prostitutes something is wrong.

Ok, the sexually abusing mages I can give ya.

But why exactly should the poor or prostitues not be asked to donate?  I know of no organization that stipulates you can't donate based on financial status.

[Melca36]

wcholcombe wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

When they ignore Templars sexually abusing mages & have sisters soliciting money from the poor and prostitutes something is wrong.

Ok, the sexually abusing mages I can give ya.

But why exactly should the poor or prostitues not be asked to donate?  I know of no organization that stipulates you can't donate based on financial status.

Sorry. If I am barely scraping by and have a family...I AM NOT going to give any coin to the  Chantry. I want to keep my family alive.

[Ap0crypha]

wcholcombe wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

When they ignore Templars sexually abusing mages & have sisters soliciting money from the poor and prostitutes something is wrong.

Ok, the sexually abusing mages I can give ya.

But why exactly should the poor or prostitues not be asked to donate?  I know of no organization that stipulates you can't donate based on financial status.

...because the poor have nothing to give? If anything, it should be the Chantry helping the poor.

Modifié par Ap0crypha, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:04 .

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end. 

That's how The Warden can interpret spreading the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world - as an attempt to spread their power and dominion, especially when we know how violently hostile some Andrastians can be towards heathens. And the Chantry clearly gets power and influence, including with their docturine that templars have dominion over mages by divine right, as well as preaching that it's the Maker's docturine that mages belong in Circle Towers, since it leaves virtually everyone with magical talent right under their thumb.

Ah, there we go, interpret.  The warden can also interpret the Dalish as being rebellious tresspassers who harbor apostates.

Actually, the countries they operate in also give the templars legal authority over mages.

But, you are just interpretting, again, if the chantry honestly believes keeping the mages in the towers is what is best for Thedas, you can't argue that they are corrupt for it. 

You could argue misguided.  You could argue that they are wrong and stupid for it if you want to argue that.

But you can't tell me that they are corrupt.  The divine isn't putting the mages in a tower to finance her power hungry plan to take over the world and have everyone worship her as a living god.