1420 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Didn't Isolde also state that if Eamon found out he'd send Conner to the CoM?

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Didn't Isolde also state that if Eamon found out he'd send Conner to the CoM?

Yes, she did.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Didn't Isolde also state that if Eamon found out he'd send Conner to the CoM?

Yes, she did.

And Jowan, I think.

[Br3admax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Didn't Isolde also state that if Eamon found out he'd send Conner to the CoM?

Yes, she did.

She was wrong too. Better that he went to Tevinter. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Necanor wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Wait, are you being serious or sarcastic?

What's the alternative? Having a child make a deal with a demon or get posessed by one and killing dozens if not more? And I thought people would learn from what happend to Connor or Meredith's sister.

Children need to be sent to the circle and learn how to handle their powers and the connection to the fade, or else they're living time bombs.

What happened with Connor did precisely so because Isolde feared his being taken away from her for good, NOT because she feared his being trained.  Therein lies the difference: people don't have a problem with mages getting proper training, they have a problem with the practice of removing children from their parents never to be part of that family again.

I can't say too much about Meredith because I've never actually gotten the relevant cutscene where she mentions her sister, but I believe that the point is made her parents wouldn't send her for training because they feared she wouldn't survive it.  I think the fact that they thought that way also says a lot about how mages are taught.  There is no reason for people to be deathly afraid that their child might actually die from being trained.

This is the core issue:  when people are against mages being taken away from their families, the key point is that they are generally removed permanently, not for a season of training.  I see nothing unreasonable about requiring mage children to be trained, but nothing about that should have to mean that they aren't permitted to visit with their families during training, or that they cannot be returned to them later. 

I see no reason for a mage's family to be forbidden to visit, and indeed Eamon was permitted this. Nor would going on a vacation in this manner of necessity ruin a poor family; it came up while I was studying Chaucer that going on long road trips to visit church installations (not that I'm married to the thought of the Chantry maintaining it's power over mages, for largely the reasons covered in this thread) was just something that people did to fill the void that the non-existence of TV, video games, and internet left.

As for returning them to their families, that can only be done with any safety when they're Harrowed. And apparently, they're still moderate risks even then. As for the fear that Meredith's sister would die, I see nothing that can be done about that.

[Vit246]

Remember that Eamon comes from a wealthy and powerful noble family. Thats how they even have permission to visit and contact. By pulling strings. The average peasant is almost never gonna see their offspring again.

Modifié par Vit246, 23 octobre 2013 - 12:28 .

[dragonflight288]

Vit246 wrote...

Remember that Eamon comes from a wealthy and powerful noble family. Thats how they even have permission to visit and contact. By pulling strings. The average peasant is almost never gonna see their offspring again.

Or wives allowed to see their husbands, as was the case with Huon.

[ScarMK]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or wives allowed to see their husbands, as was the case with Huon.

To be fair, that particular case was for the best. 

[dragonflight288]

ScarMK wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or wives allowed to see their husbands, as was the case with Huon.

To be fair, that particular case was for the best. 

It could be considered a large contributor to him going insane though.

But it does make a good example that those of common birth, and there is a case that even some nobles, lose their children/spouse for good, with next to no chance of seeing them again.

[cjones91]

ScarMK wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or wives allowed to see their husbands, as was the case with Huon.

To be fair, that particular case was for the best. 

Huon did'nt become crazy until the moment he was dragged away from the Kirkwall Alienage.His wife said he was way different before that.

[Vit246]

ScarMK wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or wives allowed to see their husbands, as was the case with Huon.

To be fair, that particular case was for the best. 

No it wasn't. It really wasn't. Huon was apparently living a perfectly nice stable life with a wife for years. And then he was taken away from that life to one of the most infamous Circles in Thedas and destroyed there. That turned him into an insane monster.

Modifié par Vit246, 23 octobre 2013 - 12:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

[ScarMK]

I think it's funny how a throwaway joke becomes contested. Bravo.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Most mage children don't show magical talent until they reach a age where remembering their parents is not a problem.I still think it's amoral to rip children away from loving parents where they are then taught to hate themselves just for being born with magic.

[KiwiQuiche]

Because it is? The difference is the Chantry doesn't even bother to hide it's dirty dealings; having a bunch of heavily-armed drug addict zealots guarding supernatural demon-beacons whho are basically prisoners 24/7 where said prisoners cannot leave? Yeah, sounds like a grand idea. Exalted March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I wonder? Blood magic is evil! Just look at Tevinter! Omg it is so evil, even if said user isn't killing anyone and only using their own blood! Also, kill any mage who isn't part of the Circle they are obviously Blood Mages, which is so evil!

They're stupid and narcissistic.

[Reaverwind]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

No, the problem isn't children being too young - the problem is that too many families are all too happy to see the last of their kid-turned-mutant. However, I agree distance is a serious problem for the less well-off to overcome.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Hawke is wealthy at the time, and has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, as well as his ties with two prominent templars; citing Gamlen as an example doesn't really work because, while he's technically a commoner, he's still a member of the Amell family, who have experienced a resurgence due to Hawke.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Most mage children don't show magical talent until they reach a age where remembering their parents is not a problem.I still think it's amoral to rip children away from loving parents where they are then taught to hate themselves just for being born with magic.

"Loving" parents who would sooner drown them, than shelter them, once they found out about the magic...
Sure, you can argue the Chantry is responsible for the view most commoners have on magic. But just keep in mind, that mages have done enough bad stuff throughout all of time, to tarnish their own good name for the rest of eternity. A single bad apple spoils the bunch, despite the lack of relations between.
Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

[Xilizhra]

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

Well, there's what they say, then there's what they do.

Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

The fact that it does happen (indeed, this seems to be the very premise behind the Loyalists) is a very bad sign.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Hawke is wealthy at the time, and has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, as well as his ties with two prominent templars; citing Gamlen as an example doesn't really work because, while he's technically a commoner, he's still a member of the Amell family, who have experienced a resurgence due to Hawke.

The Amell family are ALL still living in the gutter, except for Hawke. So what you are saying is simply not true. Hawke has gained influence through his own money, and his status as Champion. This influence has not rubbed off on Gamlen.

[wolfhowwl]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Didn't Isolde also state that if Eamon found out he'd send Conner to the CoM?

Yes, she did.

She was wrong too. Better that he went to Tevinter. 

Connor is sent to the Circle of Magi (assuming he didn't die, and you didn't hand his soul over to the Desire Demon), so I don't see how Isolde is wrong. And (according to his Epilogue slide) Connor does go to Tevinter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

Well, there's what they say, then there's what they do.

As an organization the Chantry has no interrest in losing its influence and power. Why would they have? Literally ALL powerful organizations will want to hold on to the power they got. But because people gets a damn hard on for hating on organized religion, they love nothing more than to blame the Chantry, for doing EXACTLY what all other organizations are doing.

Xilizhra wrote...

Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

The fact that it does happen (indeed, this seems to be the very premise behind the Loyalists) is a very bad sign.

Some people are simply weak. This mage is a showcase of what can happen when a mage is weak. Had it not been her own self-esteem problems that eroded her, it would have been a demon slowly chipping away at her.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is wealthy at the time, and has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, as well as his ties with two prominent templars; citing Gamlen as an example doesn't really work because, while he's technically a commoner, he's still a member of the Amell family, who have experienced a resurgence due to Hawke.

The Amell family are ALL still living in the gutter, except for Hawke. So what you are saying is simply not true. Hawke has gained influence through his own money, and his status as Champion. This influence has not rubbed off on Gamlen. 

It's referenced that Hawke has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, he's offered the opportunity to be recognized as an Amell (but turns it down), and only Gamlen is living in destitution at the time, since Hawke acquires the Amell mansion.

[Bleachrude]

Reaverwind wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

No, the problem isn't children being too young - the problem is that too many families are all too happy to see the last of their kid-turned-mutant. However, I agree distance is a serious problem for the less well-off to overcome.

I think this gets ignored a fair bit.

We have multiple examples of people interacting with their mage relatives and the one commonality is that they have the means to get there...usually this is money (Finn isn't a noble but there's contact with his family even before his harrowing) but Gamlen shows that it is distance.

Remember, Orzammar is the closest place on the map to the Tower. Yet Dagna tells you that AT BEST, it takes 2 weeks nand 4 days to get to it.

How exactly would someone from Gwaren or evn Denerim be able to afford a visit to the Tower?