1420 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Most mage children don't show magical talent until they reach a age where remembering their parents is not a problem.I still think it's amoral to rip children away from loving parents where they are then taught to hate themselves just for being born with magic.

"Loving" parents who would sooner drown them, than shelter them, once they found out about the magic...
Sure, you can argue the Chantry is responsible for the view most commoners have on magic. But just keep in mind, that mages have done enough bad stuff throughout all of time, to tarnish their own good name for the rest of eternity. A single bad apple spoils the bunch, despite the lack of relations between.
Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

Um,the Loyalist Fraternity comes to mind.There are more mages like Keili in all of the Circles that makes me believe mages who have low self esteem start to believe they are actual monsters.

[Xilizhra]

As an organization the Chantry has no interrest in losing its influence and power. Why would they have? Literally ALL powerful organizations will want to hold on to the power they got. But because people gets a damn hard on for hating on organized religion, they love nothing more than to blame the Chantry, for doing EXACTLY what all other organizations are doing.

Most of those other organizations suck too. The only ones I respect are the ones that are necessary in some form, i.e. the Circle of Magi and the Grey Wardens.

Some people are simply weak. This mage is a showcase of what can happen when a mage is weak. Had it not been her own self-esteem problems that eroded her, it would have been a demon slowly chipping away at her.

Arguably.

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

The part where the elves were made second class citizens?Because that actually happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is wealthy at the time, and has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, as well as his ties with two prominent templars; citing Gamlen as an example doesn't really work because, while he's technically a commoner, he's still a member of the Amell family, who have experienced a resurgence due to Hawke.

The Amell family are ALL still living in the gutter, except for Hawke. So what you are saying is simply not true. Hawke has gained influence through his own money, and his status as Champion. This influence has not rubbed off on Gamlen. 

It's referenced that Hawke has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, he's offered the opportunity to be recognized as an Amell (but turns it down), and only Gamlen is living in destitution at the time, since Hawke acquires the Amell mansion.

Charade is certianly not nobility either. Which means ALL the other Amells were commoners. So what yuoa re saying is wrong. Simple as that.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is wealthy at the time, and has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, as well as his ties with two prominent templars; citing Gamlen as an example doesn't really work because, while he's technically a commoner, he's still a member of the Amell family, who have experienced a resurgence due to Hawke.

The Amell family are ALL still living in the gutter, except for Hawke. So what you are saying is simply not true. Hawke has gained influence through his own money, and his status as Champion. This influence has not rubbed off on Gamlen. 

It's referenced that Hawke has influence due to saving the Viscount's son, he's offered the opportunity to be recognized as an Amell (but turns it down), and only Gamlen is living in destitution at the time, since Hawke acquires the Amell mansion.

Charade is certianly not nobility either. Which means ALL the other Amells were commoners. So what yuoa re saying is wrong. Simple as that.

Well Leandra regains her noble status so maybe Gamlen just liked living in Lowtown.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Most mage children don't show magical talent until they reach a age where remembering their parents is not a problem.I still think it's amoral to rip children away from loving parents where they are then taught to hate themselves just for being born with magic.

"Loving" parents who would sooner drown them, than shelter them, once they found out about the magic...
Sure, you can argue the Chantry is responsible for the view most commoners have on magic. But just keep in mind, that mages have done enough bad stuff throughout all of time, to tarnish their own good name for the rest of eternity. A single bad apple spoils the bunch, despite the lack of relations between.
Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

Um,the Loyalist Fraternity comes to mind.There are more mages like Keili in all of the Circles that makes me believe mages who have low self esteem start to believe they are actual monsters.

If tehre are so many of them and we have been expsoed to them, then please by all means list them for us. For all I care, until proven otherwise, she is an anomaly.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gamlen, a poor slob from Lowtown was allowed to visit Bethany often. So yeah, even commoners (which Gamlen remained, despite Hawke's influence) can be allowed to visit mages. More often than not the reason for mages being cut off from their families, is that the mages are too young to remember them, and the distance to the Circles from where the mage was colelcted is too far for a commoner family to travel.

Huon and his wife were both Elves, which probably played a HUGE factor as to how the Circle treated them.

Most mage children don't show magical talent until they reach a age where remembering their parents is not a problem.I still think it's amoral to rip children away from loving parents where they are then taught to hate themselves just for being born with magic.

"Loving" parents who would sooner drown them, than shelter them, once they found out about the magic...
Sure, you can argue the Chantry is responsible for the view most commoners have on magic. But just keep in mind, that mages have done enough bad stuff throughout all of time, to tarnish their own good name for the rest of eternity. A single bad apple spoils the bunch, despite the lack of relations between.
Nor are mages "taught to hate themselves". I love how ONE disturbed mage girl leads so many peope to believe that ALL mages are thinking that of themselves, when we have obvious and numerous evidence to the contrary. It is simply an attempt to twist the evidence into a case more favorable to your point of view.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

Um,the Loyalist Fraternity comes to mind.There are more mages like Keili in all of the Circles that makes me believe mages who have low self esteem start to believe they are actual monsters.

If tehre are so many of them and we have been expsoed to them, then please by all means list them for us. For all I care, until proven otherwise, she is an anomaly.

But the Loyalist Fraternity is one example that there are more mages like Keili.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

They're stupid since they let drug addicts guard people.

They believe their religion is the only one that is right; hence the destruction of the Dales. That is narcissistic. And don't be all "you people" like we're a gorramn hivemind.

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted
March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't
believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I
wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

So I must of hallucinated all the alienages in previous DA games, then.

[wolfhowwl]

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

Why yes.The majority totally believe they are a sin and every other mage shold just submit to the Chantry/Templar's whim.

[KiwiQuiche]

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

[Steelcan]

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

In a war that the the Dalish claim was started by the Chantry.

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

And do we know why they sacked those cities?No we don't and to somehow suggest the elves deserve their fate is spreading propoganda yourself.

[dragonflight288]

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

[wolfhowwl]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

[cjones91]

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The first part I believe...but who claimed the Dalish tried to take over parts of Orlais?

[EmperorSahlertz]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

They're stupid since they let drug addicts guard people.

They believe their religion is the only one that is right; hence the destruction of the Dales. That is narcissistic. And don't be all "you people" like we're a gorramn hivemind.

These "drug addicts" are the best defense against magic. Nothing else comes close to the Templars, when it comes to combat efficiency against magic. I'm sure that if lyrium could be avoided, the Chantry would love that, however as it is, Lyrium is a required part of Templar trainning.

And the destruction of the Dales, was a result of the Dalish's own incompetence at warfare and political maneuvering. The Chantry played a very little role in the entire first half of the war, and only when the Dalish threatened the very seat of Chantry power, did the Chantry involve themselves officially.

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted
March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't
believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I
wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

So I must of hallucinated all the alienages in previous DA games, then.

The alienages are not a product of the Chantry... The Chantry ordered all of humanity to give the refugee Elves a place to live. They did not however specify the living conditions, and the human nations only offered the Elves the bare minimum of living conditions. Granted, the Chantry could probably have been abit more strict with the human nations in this case. But asking humans to show compassion and mercy to a people who had just nearly destroyed their culture, would probably not be asound political move at that point in time.

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

The Pro Chantry folks do the same thing so what's your point?

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

[KiwiQuiche]

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

The point is the Chantry themselves stated one of their reasons for sacking the Dales was that the Dalish worshipped false gods. :|

Get your own facts right.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

This is the majority of it. Taken straight from the wiki.
In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of theDivine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales. [5] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands, Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods.[6] Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

They're stupid since they let drug addicts guard people.

They believe their religion is the only one that is right; hence the destruction of the Dales. That is narcissistic. And don't be all "you people" like we're a gorramn hivemind.

These "drug addicts" are the best defense against magic. Nothing else comes close to the Templars, when it comes to combat efficiency against magic. I'm sure that if lyrium could be avoided, the Chantry would love that, however as it is, Lyrium is a required part of Templar trainning.

And the destruction of the Dales, was a result of the Dalish's own incompetence at warfare and political maneuvering. The Chantry played a very little role in the entire first half of the war, and only when the Dalish threatened the very seat of Chantry power, did the Chantry involve themselves officially.

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted
March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't
believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I
wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

So I must of hallucinated all the alienages in previous DA games, then.

The alienages are not a product of the Chantry... The Chantry ordered all of humanity to give the refugee Elves a place to live. They did not however specify the living conditions, and the human nations only offered the Elves the bare minimum of living conditions. Granted, the Chantry could probably have been abit more strict with the human nations in this case. But asking humans to show compassion and mercy to a people who had just nearly destroyed their culture, would probably not be asound political move at that point in time.

That's funny since it was the elves who had their culture destroyed.And Orlais does not represent all of human cultures in Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

The point is the Chantry themselves stated one of their reasons for sacking the Dales was that the Dalish worshipped false gods. :|

Get your own facts right.

The Chantry also claimed that the Dalish practice human sacrifices, something passed down through time and is a rumor still going strong. A Dalish Warden can make a joke and tease Poll about it, and Merrill makes a joke about it to Anders.

Merrill: A party wouldn't be complete without the human sacrifice.
Anders: ....Really?
Merrill: No.