1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed 

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

Like how you omitted the fact that the Dalish historical account blames the war on a templar incursion into their territory, and how the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

The threat they were supposed to be helping take down was the darkspawn.

[dragonflight288]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

[KiwiQuiche]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They're stupid and narcissistic.

The Chant of Light straight up tells you to be fair and respectful to other people. So that whole "narcissistic" buzzword campaign you people seem to be having, falls kinda flat on its face.

They're stupid since they let drug addicts guard people.

They believe their religion is the only one that is right; hence the destruction of the Dales. That is narcissistic. And don't be all "you people" like we're a gorramn hivemind.

These "drug addicts" are the best defense against magic. Nothing else comes close to the Templars, when it comes to combat efficiency against magic. I'm sure that if lyrium could be avoided, the Chantry would love that, however as it is, Lyrium is a required part of Templar trainning.

And the destruction of the Dales, was a result of the Dalish's own incompetence at warfare and political maneuvering. The Chantry played a very little role in the entire first half of the war, and only when the Dalish threatened the very seat of Chantry power, did the Chantry involve themselves officially.

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
 Exalted
March on Elves, making them into sub-class citizens because they don't
believe in our God? Sounds awesome. Hmm, why do elves hate us so much I
wonder?

Dalish propaganda detected.

So I must of hallucinated all the alienages in previous DA games, then.

The alienages are not a product of the Chantry... The Chantry ordered all of humanity to give the refugee Elves a place to live. They did not however specify the living conditions, and the human nations only offered the Elves the bare minimum of living conditions. Granted, the Chantry could probably have been abit more strict with the human nations in this case. But asking humans to show compassion and mercy to a people who had just nearly destroyed their culture, would probably not be asound political move at that point in time.

They are drug addicts. That's my problem. I don't care how it makes them better fighters against mages, they are addicted to drugs the Chantry has control of and then whoops no drugs? Look what happens. That is just stupid.

Depends on which side you believe.

Yeah, the Chantry does crap to help the elves they stuff in there, but then again they don't seem to care about humans much. Look at Kirkwall with all the half-dead and starving, then that overly lavish temple they crammed in there to worship  some dead woman.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

Why yes.The majority totally believe they are a sin and every other mage shold just submit to the Chantry/Templar's whim.

The Loyalist belive what the Chantry preach. However the Chantry does not preach taht all mages are monsters. The Loyalists believe that they are a threat, and as such that the Chantry is fully justified in establishing the Circles. Keili is not an example of the mindset of a average loyalist. She is an example of a weak pathetic little mage who experienced a traumatizing event which finally pushed her off the edge. We have not yet met an actual Loyalist mage, so blanketing them all as similar to some little apprentice, jsut becasue it suits the pro-mage point of view, is a weak attempt at reinforcing that point of view.

The ONLY thing we know about the Loyalist is that they advocate obedience and loyalty to the Chantry... That is it.....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:35 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

The threat they were supposed to be helping take down was the darkspawn.

Something much of Ferelden's nobility is also guilty of. And many dwarven deshyrs refuse to send their soldiers to the surface to help fight a blight, despite the treaty and despite who is king. I'm sure there were plenty of Orlesian nobles who tried playing the same way.

The Dalish weren't guilty of something every other group has been guilty of in the past.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

During the early stages of the war, the elves captured Montismmard. Whether this means they intended this as a step in annexing part of Orlais is anyone's guess.

[KiwiQuiche]

dragonflight288 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

The point is the Chantry themselves stated one of their reasons for sacking the Dales was that the Dalish worshipped false gods. :|

Get your own facts right.

The Chantry also claimed that the Dalish practice human sacrifices, something passed down through time and is a rumor still going strong. A Dalish Warden can make a joke and tease Poll about it, and Merrill makes a joke about it to Anders.

Merrill: A party wouldn't be complete without the human sacrifice.
Anders: ....Really?
Merrill: No.

Lol yeah Merrill knows how to troll. As was being a snarky Dalish in DAO

[cjones91]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed 

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

Like how you omitted the fact that the Dalish historical account blames the war on a templar incursion into their territory, and how the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert?

Shh......that little detail will cause the Pro Chantry folks to accuse you of hating humans.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

While you bring up a point with the technical wording of "opportunity" it does seem that the Dales did take parts of Orlais. The actual "why" seems ambiguous. Both arguments are biased.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

During the early stages of the war, the elves captured Montismmard. Whether this means they intended this as a step in annexing part of Orlais is anyone's guess.

Early stages of the war between them, or early stages of the blight?

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

While you bring up a point with the technical wording of "opportunity" it does seem that the Dales did take parts of Orlais. The actual "why" seems ambiguous. Both arguments are biased.

And so neither should be taken at face value. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Val Royeaux.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:40 .

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed 

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

Like how you omitted the fact that the Dalish historical account blames the war on a templar incursion into their territory, and how the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert?

Shh......that little detail will cause the Pro Chantry folks to accuse you of hating humans.

I like how you generalize people who disagree with you and him as "Pro Chantry folks"

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

While you bring up a point with the technical wording of "opportunity" it does seem that the Dales did take parts of Orlais. The actual "why" seems ambiguous. Both arguments are biased.

And so neither should be taken at face value. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

I agree. Neither were entirely unbiased. And both probably had something to gain through this conflict.

[Hellion Rex]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Only by calling the Exalted March was Orlais saved. By the wording of the wiki page, it appears that the Dales were on Val Royeaux's doorstep.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

Why yes.The majority totally believe they are a sin and every other mage shold just submit to the Chantry/Templar's whim.

The Loyalist belive what the Chantry preach. However the Chantry does not preach taht all mages are monsters. The Loyalists believe that they are a threat, and as such that the Chantry is fully justified in establishing the Circles. Keili is not an example of the mindset of a average loyalist. She is an example of a weak pathetic little mage who experienced a traumatizing event which finally pushed her off the edge. We have not yet met an actual Loyalist mage, so blanketing them all as similar to some little apprentice, jsut becasue it suits the pro-mage point of view, is a weak attempt at reinforcing that point of view.

The ONLY thing we know about the Loyalist is that they advocate obedience and loyalty to the Chantry... That is it.....

Guess what....I'm not Pro Mage,instead I'm Pro Non Extremist who is getting sick of being labelled on one side or the other just because I point out faulty logic.The Chantry claims mages are the cause of Blights and the Darkspawn(which is only partly true) which is why the Loyalist Fraternity exists.I imagine Keili's mindset is shared by a great number of Loyalist Fraternity mages since they advocate fully submitting to the Chantry/Templars.

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

Won't be any one left to villify when I'm through with 'em

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

The threat they were supposed to be helping take down was the darkspawn.

Something much of Ferelden's nobility is also guilty of. And many dwarven deshyrs refuse to send their soldiers to the surface to help fight a blight, despite the treaty and despite who is king. I'm sure there were plenty of Orlesian nobles who tried playing the same way.

The Dalish weren't guilty of something every other group has been guilty of in the past.

Except for the fact that in general the Dwarves helped out, and in general the Fereldans helped out. Of course there were some few despciable ones in between. Hopefully those traitors would be dealt with afterwards.

The Dalish as a goddamn whole, refused to send even a single soldier to help defeat a threat, that could consume the entire world. The Dalish as an entire people, refused to aid the world they are a part of. That is despicable. That is borderline treacherous to their own world. And luckily, they were dealt with afterwards....

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

Why yes.The majority totally believe they are a sin and every other mage shold just submit to the Chantry/Templar's whim.

The Loyalist belive what the Chantry preach. However the Chantry does not preach taht all mages are monsters. The Loyalists believe that they are a threat, and as such that the Chantry is fully justified in establishing the Circles. Keili is not an example of the mindset of a average loyalist. She is an example of a weak pathetic little mage who experienced a traumatizing event which finally pushed her off the edge. We have not yet met an actual Loyalist mage, so blanketing them all as similar to some little apprentice, jsut becasue it suits the pro-mage point of view, is a weak attempt at reinforcing that point of view.

The ONLY thing we know about the Loyalist is that they advocate obedience and loyalty to the Chantry... That is it.....

Guess what....I'm not Pro Mage,instead I'm Pro Non Extremist who is getting sick of being labelled on one side or the other just because I point out faulty logic.The Chantry claims mages are the cause of Blights and the Darkspawn(which is only partly true) which is why the Loyalist Fraternity exists.I imagine Keili's mindset is shared by a great number of Loyalist Fraternity mages since they advocate fully submitting to the Chantry/Templars.

If you are sick of being stuck with a label you dont like, then stop applying that groups faulty logic. You just claimed that ALL loyalist are like Keili, even though you have ZERO evidence for this.

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

You left out the part where the poor innocent elves got an Exalted March declared on them because they sacked human cities.

Durr hurr point missed 

Your point being leaving out facts that clash with your anti-Chantry narrative.

Like how you omitted the fact that the Dalish historical account blames the war on a templar incursion into their territory, and how the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert?

Shh......that little detail will cause the Pro Chantry folks to accuse you of hating humans.

I like how you generalize people who disagree with you and him as "Pro Chantry folks"

Who is generalizing?I'm simply stating a fact since I was accused of somehow hating humans by several posters who supported the Chantry because I dared to suggest the elves may not be 100% guilty.

Modifié par cjones91, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Reaverwind]

eluvianix wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

As I recall the Dalish not only refused to help during a Blight, but then took the opportunity to try and take over parts of Orlais.

I know they didn't help, but I don't recall the second part. Could you provide a source?

It comes from the Wiki page detailing the fall of the Dales - increasing hostility led to border skirmishes which led to full-scale war when the Dales invaded Orlais in force.

But where does it say that the Dalish tried taking parts of Orlais as an opportunity? I don't recall ever reading that part.

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Only by calling the Exalted March was Orlais saved. By the wording of the wiki page, it appears that the Dales were on Val Royeaux's doorstep.

I had mis-typed - I meant Val Royeaux (the sacking). And that's my point - the Dalish were winning, until they ignited a Holy War. If they had only pulled back and consolidated their wins...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

During the early stages of the war, the elves captured Montismmard. Whether this means they intended this as a step in annexing part of Orlais is anyone's guess.

Early stages of the war between them, or early stages of the blight?

The early stages of the Dales/Orlesian War, I mean. Right before the Divine called for an Exalted March.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Something much of Ferelden's
nobility is also guilty of. And many dwarven deshyrs refuse to send
their soldiers to the surface to help fight a blight, despite the treaty
and despite who is king. I'm sure there were plenty of Orlesian nobles
who tried playing the same way.

The Dalish weren't guilty of something every other group has been guilty of in the past.

Well I don't think that makes it ok. it's wrong in those cases and it's wrong for the Dales too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:47 .

[dragonflight288]

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing.

The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.

The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.

For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.)

Orlais was in desperate need of more land because their land was blighted. The Chantry believes that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. I personally feel the Orlesians had the most to gain from the war.

And when the elves marched on Val Reyauex, the Chantry got involved and ordered an exalted march, and I think that's when the templars came, and the Dalish ignored everything in between their turning away the missionaries and the arrival of invading templars.

Both sides have their dirty laundry, and both put all the blame on the other.