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[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

Won't be any one left to villify when I'm through with 'em 

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward.

[Steelcan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

During the early stages of the war, the elves captured Montismmard. Whether this means they intended this as a step in annexing part of Orlais is anyone's guess.

Early stages of the war between them, or early stages of the blight?

The early stages of the Dales/Orlesian War, I mean. Right before the Divine called for an Exalted March.

Probably in the waning days of the blight or shortly afterwards after the Orlesians were too weak to respond effectively.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were no city elves before the Fall of the Dales.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you know for a fact that ALL loyalist believe themselves to be monsters?

Why yes.The majority totally believe they are a sin and every other mage shold just submit to the Chantry/Templar's whim.

The Loyalist belive what the Chantry preach. However the Chantry does not preach taht all mages are monsters. The Loyalists believe that they are a threat, and as such that the Chantry is fully justified in establishing the Circles. Keili is not an example of the mindset of a average loyalist. She is an example of a weak pathetic little mage who experienced a traumatizing event which finally pushed her off the edge. We have not yet met an actual Loyalist mage, so blanketing them all as similar to some little apprentice, jsut becasue it suits the pro-mage point of view, is a weak attempt at reinforcing that point of view.

The ONLY thing we know about the Loyalist is that they advocate obedience and loyalty to the Chantry... That is it.....

Guess what....I'm not Pro Mage,instead I'm Pro Non Extremist who is getting sick of being labelled on one side or the other just because I point out faulty logic.The Chantry claims mages are the cause of Blights and the Darkspawn(which is only partly true) which is why the Loyalist Fraternity exists.I imagine Keili's mindset is shared by a great number of Loyalist Fraternity mages since they advocate fully submitting to the Chantry/Templars.

If you are sick of being stuck with a label you dont like, then stop applying that groups faulty logic. You just claimed that ALL loyalist are like Keili, even though you have ZERO evidence for this.

Their Codex entry and Asunder is evidence enough that the Loyalists would prefer that every mage let themselves fall on the sword.Hell,I would'nt be surprised if they try to betray the other mages in DA:I

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

During the early stages of the war, the elves captured Montismmard. Whether this means they intended this as a step in annexing part of Orlais is anyone's guess.

Early stages of the war between them, or early stages of the blight?

The early stages of the Dales/Orlesian War, I mean. Right before the Divine called for an Exalted March.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Something much of Ferelden's
nobility is also guilty of. And many dwarven deshyrs refuse to send
their soldiers to the surface to help fight a blight, despite the treaty
and despite who is king. I'm sure there were plenty of Orlesian nobles
who tried playing the same way.

The Dalish weren't guilty of something every other group has been guilty of in the past.

Well I don't think that makes it ok. it's wrong in those cases and it's wrong for the Dales too.

Ah, so it wasn't taking land out of opportunity because it was there and weakened (well, that may be part of it in a strategic sense) but to gain a foothold after the war was already started.

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

Won't be any one left to villify when I'm through with 'em 

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward.

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want

[dragonflight288]

Well I don't think that makes it ok. it's wrong in those cases and it's wrong for the Dales too.

Fair enough. I just think that if we condemn one group for the crime, it would only be logical to accuse every other group who are equally guilty of the same crime.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...
Their Codex entry and Asunder is evidence enough that the Loyalists would prefer that every mage let themselves fall on the sword.Hell,I would'nt be surprised if they try to betray the other mages in DA:I

They are LOYALIST of course they would advocate remaining LOYAL to the Chantry........

[dragonflight288]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

Won't be any one left to villify when I'm through with 'em 

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward.

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want

Well, mister Illusive Man, if you take that attitude (and I'm saying this jokingly so don't take it too seriously) then humans shouldn't complain one bit if dwarves or elves have the exact same attitude.

It's fair and equal. Self-destructive and guarantees a never-ending conflict, but still fair.

[Steelcan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves didn't help an empire that conquered it's other neighbors, and who the Dales had difficulties with. I'm not seeing why I should vilify the People.

Won't be any one left to villify when I'm through with 'em 

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward.

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want

Well, mister Illusive Man, if you take that attitude (and I'm saying this jokingly so don't take it too seriously) then humans shouldn't complain one bit if dwarves or elves have the exact same attitude.

It's fair and equal. Self-destructive and guarantees a never-ending conflict, but still fair.

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Their Codex entry and Asunder is evidence enough that the Loyalists would prefer that every mage let themselves fall on the sword.Hell,I would'nt be surprised if they try to betray the other mages in DA:I

They are LOYALIST of course they would advocate remaining LOYAL to the Chantry........

And many would prefer the templars kill them as they feel like they are nothing more than cursed beings, and never question whether or not the Chantry and its templars may be right or wrong about something.

Not every loyalist will feel this way, but there are many, MANY examples of it in the game (Keili) and the books (Asunder.)

[dragonflight288]

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward. 

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want 

And, again, I respectfully oppose your position. I get the feeling this is going to be the majority of my Dalish Inquisitor's conversations with certain Andrastians.

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing.

The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.

The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.

For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.)

 

I really don't care what started the war - one, I might add, which might have been averted that the Dalish hadn't been so determined to be isolationist that they ending up failing on the diplomatic front. And would it really have killed them to send some aid to Montsimmard during the Blight? That was practically in their backyard, and would have established some diplomatic good will. The Chantry's propoganda succeeded because there was nothing to counter it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Steelcan wrote...
Probably in the waning days of the blight or shortly afterwards after the Orlesians were too weak to respond effectively.

Well no. The Second Blight ended in 1:95 Divine and the Fall of Montismmard was in 2:10 Glory. Five years after the first border skirmishes between Orlais and the elves. If you believe the elves planned the war in advance and started it with the attack on Red Crossing and then Montismmard, then I suppose it can be interpreted that way. But I don't think we have any concrete examples of either sides' motives at the time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:57 .

[Steelcan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

Human have been going through Blights for a while and can survive the last few remaining.

[dragonflight288]

I really don't care what started the war - one, I might add, which might have been averted that the Dalish hadn't been so determined to be isolationist that they ending up failing on the diplomatic front. And would it really have killed them to send some aid to Montsimmard during the Blight? That was practically in their backyard, and would have established some diplomatic good will. The Chantry's propoganda succeeded because there was nothing to counter it.

And that is a failing on the part of the Dalish. I'm not defending or attacking either side, simply trying to weed out the truth, no matter who may take offense, or who it paints more in the wrong.

[cjones91]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing.

The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.

The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.

For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.)

 

I really don't care what started the war - one, I might add, which might have been averted that the Dalish hadn't been so determined to be isolationist that they ending up failing on the diplomatic front. And would it really have killed them to send some aid to Montsimmard during the Blight? That was practically in their backyard, and would have established some diplomatic good will. The Chantry's propoganda succeeded because there was nothing to counter it. 

Why should the Dalish go out of their way to make friends?If they want to be left alone then that's their choice.

[The Hierophant]

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

[dragonflight288]

Steelcan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

Human have been going through Blights for a while and can survive the last few remaining.

Well, if the humans disregard the dwarves as much as they disregard the elves, sooner or later Orzammar will fall, and then you wouldn't need an archdemon. To a human, a blight is hell on earth. To the dwarves, a blight is their everyday. Without Orzammar, the humans would then undergo a never-ending blight. Killing archdemons won't stop them in that case, because the darkspawn would just keep coming, and no one would stop them.

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

[wolfhowwl]

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing. 

There isn't any doubt that the war started when Elves sacked Red Crossing. World of Thedas' timeline establishes this. And the timeline is in an objective tone, so there is no disputing this.

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.

It doesn't fit the Chantry's MO at all. Not at this time, not yet. The Chantry was busy converting human nations at this time, so it would seem kinda excessive to try and force conversion on to the second most powerful nation on Thedas. More likely, if even true, the Templars accompanying the missionaries were there for protection.

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.

There weren't even City Elves yet at this time.... Sure it might have been a rogue/splinter group of Dalish, but it chagnes little. Tensions were still boiling over, and it lead to war. The Dalish were all too happy to go to war anyway.

dragonflight288 wrote...
For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.) 

What better way to isolate yourself, than to exterminate what you try to isolate yourself from?

dragonflight288 wrote...
Orlais was in desperate need of more land because their land was blighted. The Chantry believes that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. I personally feel the Orlesians had the most to gain from the war. 

Indeed. Orlais probably had. However, after the Blight they were also in dire need of supplies. Supplies that could be gained from trading. The Dalish refused even that. Needless to say tensions rise.

dragonflight288 wrote...
And when the elves marched on Val Reyauex, the Chantry got involved and ordered an exalted march, and I think that's when the templars came, and the Dalish ignored everything in between their turning away the missionaries and the arrival of invading templars. 

Indeed that seems most likely. Particularly does it fit with the narrators previously established racist agenda, and the way the Dalish in general prefer to view themselves as victims.

dragonflight288 wrote...
Both sides have their dirty laundry, and both put all the blame on the other.

It would seem however, that only one side is willing to admit to this.

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think I can share your disdain for the People for not aiding Orlais when they were an enemy. It's interesting how Orlais would have attempted to conquer the Free Marches, but the issues with the Dales prevented Drakon's imperialist ambitions from spreading onward. 

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want 

And, again, I respectfully oppose your position. I get the feeling this is going to be the majority of my Dalish Inquisitor's conversations with certain Andrastians.

Unless the Dalish undergo a rapid change in perspective on the outside world I can't see them getting anywhere with the rest of Thedas

[dragonflight288]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Not at all, simply trying to uncover the truth. If it hurts the Dalish, so be it. If it hurts Orlais and the Chantry, so be it. I don't care either way.