1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

[Steelcan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Probably in the waning days of the blight or shortly afterwards after the Orlesians were too weak to respond effectively.

Well no. The Second Blight ended in 1:95 Divine and the Fall of Montismmard was in 2:10 Glory. Five years after the first border skirmishes between Orlais and the elves. If you believe the elves planned the war in advance and started it with the attack on Red Crossing and then Montismmard, then I suppose it can be interpreted that way. But I don't think we have any concrete examples of either sides' motives at the time.

Its reasonable that Orlais would be very weak after a Blight, the Dales have not been fighting.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

Why should the Dalish go out of their way to make friends?If they want to be left alone then that's their choice.

The darkspawn are equal oppurtunity killers. Who knows how many women were converted into broodmothers thanks to their inaction.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Steelcan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

Human have been going through Blights for a while and can survive the last few remaining.

Every single Blight has the potential to end the world. I don't think there's even one that didn't leave a lasting scar on the country or countries it touched. They're a threat to everything.

[LobselVith8]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing. 

The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.

The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.

For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.) 

 

I really don't care what started the war - one, I might add, which might have been averted that the Dalish hadn't been so determined to be isolationist that they ending up failing on the diplomatic front. And would it really have killed them to send some aid to Montsimmard during the Blight? That was practically in their backyard, and would have established some diplomatic good will. The Chantry's propoganda succeeded because there was nothing to counter it. 

Diplomacy didn't prevent the conquests of Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden - which is currently being eyed by some in the Orlesian Empire as a lost province that should be returned to their control.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

[Steelcan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

Human have been going through Blights for a while and can survive the last few remaining.

Well, if the humans disregard the dwarves as much as they disregard the elves, sooner or later Orzammar will fall, and then you wouldn't need an archdemon. To a human, a blight is hell on earth. To the dwarves, a blight is their everyday. Without Orzammar, the humans would then undergo a never-ending blight. Killing archdemons won't stop them in that case, because the darkspawn would just keep coming, and no one would stop them.

The difference being that the Dwarves are helping the rest of the world, the Dalish sit there and scowl at everyone because they lost a war

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Ferelden didn't exist yet, and tehre is no mention of the dwarves either way. Chances are however, that the Dwarves did aid, if we presume the Grey Warden treaties are that old.

[Steelcan]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Its kind of a null point in the DA verse, with the exception of the Qunari there isn't a real threat to humans

That statement would be true, if you removed the existence of darkspawn and the giant hole in the sky raining demons down on the earth.

Human have been going through Blights for a while and can survive the last few remaining.

Every single Blight has the potential to end the world. I don't think there's even one that didn't leave a lasting scar on the country or countries it touched. They're a threat to everything.

The severity of the Blights seems to be reduced as they progress no?  The most recent one lasting a fraction of the time as others.  And only two more Old Gods remaining....

[cjones91]

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Why should the Dalish go out of their way to make friends?If they want to be left alone then that's their choice.

The darkspawn are equal oppurtunity killers. Who knows how many women were converted into broodmothers thanks to their inaction.

And who knows if the Dalish were'nt fighting the Darkspawn as well?

Modifié par cjones91, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:06 .

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

[LobselVith8]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No sources indacte they were fighting the Darkspawn at all. Several indicate they had no interactions with the Darkspawn. the Second Blight was in central Thedas, far away from Dalish borders. The closest it came was Montsimmard. But as I said, no sources indicate the Blight spread further.

[Reaverwind]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Why should the Dalish go out of their way to make friends?If they want to be left alone then that's their choice.

The darkspawn are equal oppurtunity killers. Who knows how many women were converted into broodmothers thanks to their inaction.

And how people believe the Dalish were'nt fighting the Darkspawn as well?

I think the Dalish silence on the matter speaks for itself. And please - diplomacy is not the same thing as "making friends". Cutting diplomatic ties is generally the prelude to war. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Which is an obvious historical fallacy. There were no Dalish clans or Keepers yet at this time. So it is complete and utter make-believe from some Dalish storyteller.

[AlexanderCousland]

Mage Extremeism:

"Im different from everyone, and I want to be treated the same as people that Im inherently different from, SO I'm gonna rail on everything they stand for, blow up their stuff, hate on everything they do, constantly complain about social injustice ALL WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY expecting you to respect me"

I can't believe some people don't understand why that train of thought doesn't work If you don't have the advantage of being the Majority/established power.

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Right because the Dalish should totally negotiate with Darkspawn

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

,Are you serious?I believe the mages should be taught to control their powers,I believe the Dalish were wrong for letting the Darkspawn attack a city without doing anything to help.So is there anything else you would like to accuse me of not caring about?

Modifié par cjones91, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want 

And, again, I respectfully oppose your position. I get the feeling this is going to be the majority of my Dalish Inquisitor's conversations with certain Andrastians. 

Unless the Dalish undergo a rapid change in perspective on the outside world I can't see them getting anywhere with the rest of Thedas 

You mean with the society that wants them to convert, vilifies them as heathens, and will never respect their religious beliefs or culture? What you seem to be advocating is capitulation, not co-existence.

[The Hierophant]

cjones91 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Why should the Dalish go out of their way to make friends?If they want to be left alone then that's their choice.

The darkspawn are equal oppurtunity killers. Who knows how many women were converted into broodmothers thanks to their inaction.

And who knows if the Dalish were'nt fighting the Darkspawn as well?

None of the elven authored codices mentioned this though?

[dragonflight288]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]
Well, Orlais was weakened after the Blight. If that's not oppurtunity, I don't know what is. Of course, the Dalish bit off more than they could chew with that strategic blunder of sacking Orlais.
[/quote]

Umm...based on my reading the lore, the war didn't start there at all, and the Dalish weren't expanding. From what I understand, the Dalish were extremely isolationist and went out of their way to avoid interacting with humans, the Emerald Knights turning away all missionaries and traders.

Border disputes led to increased tension, which in turn boiled over when some elves sacked Red Crossing. [/quote]
There isn't any doubt that the war started when Elves sacked Red Crossing. World of Thedas' timeline establishes this. And the timeline is in an objective tone, so there is no disputing this.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dalish say they sent away missionaries, so in response the Chantry sent templars. That does fit the Chantry's MO. I take issue with the timeline of what happened between the two events from the Dalish point of view.[/quote]
It doesn't fit the Chantry's MO at all. Not at this time, not yet. The Chantry was busy converting human nations at this time, so it would seem kinda excessive to try and force conversion on to the second most powerful nation on Thedas. More likely, if even true, the Templars accompanying the missionaries were there for protection.[/quote]

But it helped establish the Chantry's MO. But your point is still valid.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
The Chantry claims the sacking of Red Crossing started the war, and the Dalish were heathen who hated the Chantry. I have no doubt that elves sacked the town, but was it a rogue group, sanctioned by the Dales, or was it city elves in Red Crossing rising up after a similar event that happens in the city elf origin? That part is left quite vague.[/quote]
There weren't even City Elves yet at this time.... Sure it might have been a rogue/splinter group of Dalish, but it chagnes little. Tensions were still boiling over, and it lead to war. The Dalish were all too happy to go to war anyway.[/quote]

True, and at the same time, not true.

The codex entry on the Long Walk, about how many elves walked to their homeland in the Dales after it had been granted to them, tells of many elves who felt the journey was too hard and abandoned the journey. Some went back to Tevinter, and others just stopped on the way, settling in human towns.

They may not have been forced into alienages, or be called city elves at this time, but there were many elves living in the cities.[/quote]

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
For me, in the end, it comes down to a matter of motivation. The Dalish were active isolationists, trying to keep all contact with humans to the bare minimum, believing doing so would restore their lost immortality (whether that exists or not is up for debate.) [/quote]
[quote]What better way to isolate yourself, than to exterminate what you try to isolate yourself from?[/quote][/quote]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the elves were waging a campaign of genocide, intent on destroying all humanity, so this argument doesn't carry much weight unless backed by evidence. [/quote]


[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Orlais was in desperate need of more land because their land was blighted. The Chantry believes that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world. I personally feel the Orlesians had the most to gain from the war. [/quote]
Indeed. Orlais probably had. However, after the Blight they were also in dire need of supplies. Supplies that could be gained from trading. The Dalish refused even that. Needless to say tensions rise.[/quote]

This is also true.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
And when the elves marched on Val Reyauex, the Chantry got involved and ordered an exalted march, and I think that's when the templars came, and the Dalish ignored everything in between their turning away the missionaries and the arrival of invading templars. [/quote]
Indeed that seems most likely. Particularly does it fit with the narrators previously established racist agenda, and the way the Dalish in general prefer to view themselves as victims.[/quote]

I think this is closer to the truth than both sides would admit.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Both sides have their dirty laundry, and both put all the blame on the other. [/quote]
It would seem however, that only one side is willing to admit to this.

[/quote][/quote]

Which side is that, Dalish or Chantry/Orlais? I don't recall the Chantry and Orlais talking about any wrong-doing on their part. They give a few more details, but are noticeably vague on others.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

,Are you serious?I believe the mages should be taught to control their powers,I believe the Dalish were wrong for letting the Darkspawn attack a city without doing anything to help.So anything else you would like to accuse me of not caring about?

Just so you know, I mean that the Circle should definitely be there by logic. Mages should not be allowed to wonder around freely, according to logic. Logic says remove such variables before the results become catastrophic. So yeah, I'm dead serious. As to the second part, all I've seen from you is, "Human mean to elf. Elf reveng is okay." 

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Take a good look at my avi and ask yourself if you think I give two sh*ts what the knife ears want 

And, again, I respectfully oppose your position. I get the feeling this is going to be the majority of my Dalish Inquisitor's conversations with certain Andrastians. 

Unless the Dalish undergo a rapid change in perspective on the outside world I can't see them getting anywhere with the rest of Thedas 

You mean with the society that wants them to convert, vilifies them as heathens, and will never respect their religious beliefs or culture? What you seem to be advocating is capitulation, not co-existence.

Precisely

the Dalish don't trust humans and vice versa, coexistence seems impossible, that leaves two options assimilation or extermination.  And given their track record the Dalish can't come out on top.

Modifié par Steelcan, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:12 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Which is an obvious historical fallacy. There were no Dalish clans or Keepers yet at this time. So it is complete and utter make-believe from some Dalish storyteller. 

It's stipulated that not all the elves went to the Dales in their history, so calling it a 'fallacy' simply because it nullifies your vilification of the People is a bit much.

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

Mage Extremeism:

"Im different from everyone, and I want to be treated the same as people that Im inherently different from, SO I'm gonna rail on everything they stand for, blow up their stuff, hate on everything they do, constantly complain about social injustice ALL WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY expecting you to respect me"

I can't believe some people don't understand why that train of thought doesn't work If you don't have the advantage of being the Majority/established power.

Alot of people fought for respect like those in the Civil Rights Movement so you're incorrect on that one.Though that does'nt mean you should kill to get that respect.