1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

Well keep in mind, at the time Ferelden wasn't a nation state. It was inhabited by disperate Alemarri tribes that united briefly to fight the darkspawn (and then the Chasind and Avvar) under Hafter about half way through the Blight.

Orzammar is not mentioned in the stories of the Second Blight that I can remember. But they'd been waging an endless war against the darkspawn for centuries by then anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Right because the Dalish should totally negotiate with Darkspawn 

You could say the same about Orlais, given their centuries long history of conquest and occupation. Refusing to aid an enemy that wanted to obliterate everything they are simply isn't sufficient enough for me to condemn the People.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

Well keep in mind, at the time Ferelden wasn't a nation state. It was inhabited by disperate Alemarri tribes that united briefly to fight the darkspawn (and then the Chasind and Avvar) under Hafter about half way through the Blight.

Orzammar is not mentioned in the stories of the Second Blight that I can remember. But they'd been waging an endless war against the darkspawn for centuries by then anyway.

True, but there may be references to other nations like Nevarra or the Free Marches.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

,Are you serious?I believe the mages should be taught to control their powers,I believe the Dalish were wrong for letting the Darkspawn attack a city without doing anything to help.So anything else you would like to accuse me of not caring about?

Just so you know, I mean that the Circle should definitely be there by logic. Mages should not be allowed to wonder around freely, according to logic. Logic says remove such variables before the results become catastrophic. So yeah, I'm dead serious. As to the second part, all I've seen from you is, "Human mean to elf. Elf reveng is okay." 

Not really,I'm simply suggesting the elves may have had a reason for their role in the Dales conflict.Of course to someone on the extremist side that would be interpreted as me believing the humans are %100 evil.

[Reaverwind]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

Well keep in mind, at the time Ferelden wasn't a nation state. It was inhabited by disperate Alemarri tribes that united briefly to fight the darkspawn (and then the Chasind and Avvar) under Hafter about half way through the Blight.

Orzammar is not mentioned in the stories of the Second Blight that I can remember. But they'd been waging an endless war against the darkspawn for centuries by then anyway.

The surface world in general seems unaware of what's going on with the dwarves, and that they're responsible for keeping the darkspawn in check near Orzammar between blights. (I rather suspect that the Anderfels has a continuing problem with Darkspawn due to no such check existing there.)

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Which is an obvious historical fallacy. There were no Dalish clans or Keepers yet at this time. So it is complete and utter make-believe from some Dalish storyteller. 

It's stipulated that not all the elves went to the Dales in their history, so calling it a 'fallacy' simply because it nullifies your vilification of the People is a bit much.

If they didn't go to the Dales, they wouldn't be Dalish. They wouldn't be "the People" as you are so fond of saying. They wouldn't have Keepers or clans. They would have settled into human society and integrated like a good immigrant and become part of the society they lived in.
In conclusion: There were no "Dalish Clans" at this point in time. There were the Dales, and then there were all the Elves who didn't go there. There weren't even a title called "Keeper" yet.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

It says the darkspawn were "eventually overrunning all corners of the continent" during the Second Blight, but most accounts of the Second Blight seem to specifically mention the Anderfels, Orlais, Tevinter, and the Free Marches suffering heavily from the darkspawn.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:19 .

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Helping an enemy that threatened their culture, independence, and religious freedom could have weakened the Dalish substantially, but we know there were Dalish fighting darkspawn elsewhere, like Iloren and his clan in the Anderfels.

Right because the Dalish should totally negotiate with Darkspawn 

You could say the same about Orlais, given their centuries long history of conquest and occupation. Refusing to aid an enemy that wanted to obliterate everything they are simply isn't sufficient enough for me to condemn the People.

If the choice is between wannabe Romans and f*cking Sauron the choice is very clear to all non-moronic peoples.  Sadly the Dalish don't seem to be considered as such.

[AlexanderCousland]

cjones91 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Mage Extremeism:

"Im different from everyone, and I want to be treated the same as people that Im inherently different from, SO I'm gonna rail on everything they stand for, blow up their stuff, hate on everything they do, constantly complain about social injustice ALL WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY expecting you to respect me"

I can't believe some people don't understand why that train of thought doesn't work If you don't have the advantage of being the Majority/established power.

Alot of people fought for respect like those in the Civil Rights Movement so you're incorrect on that one.Though that does'nt mean you should kill to get that respect.

Just because people Won their Civil rights, and were justified in doing so, does not mean they won Respect. You don't endear anyone to your cause by hating them. Hate only breeds more Hate. This is a lesson that the disadvantaged party (mages) needs to learn.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

,Are you serious?I believe the mages should be taught to control their powers,I believe the Dalish were wrong for letting the Darkspawn attack a city without doing anything to help.So anything else you would like to accuse me of not caring about?

Just so you know, I mean that the Circle should definitely be there by logic. Mages should not be allowed to wonder around freely, according to logic. Logic says remove such variables before the results become catastrophic. So yeah, I'm dead serious. As to the second part, all I've seen from you is, "Human mean to elf. Elf reveng is okay." 

Not really,I'm simply suggesting the elves may have had a reason for their role in the Dales conflict.Of course to someone on the extremist side that would be interpreted as me believing the humans are %100 evil.

Coming from someone who hates the Chantry in almost everyway, I can tell you that this is not true. I suggest that you go back and reread a lot of the things written by you in the past few whatever. You been 100%-this-happen-so-let's-revolutionize and then you turn around and say, "I'm not for one side, I'm neutral." in what I imgaine in some toad like voice, because of the comical effect that it would have on the hypocrisy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Both sides have their dirty laundry, and both put all the blame on the other.

It would seem however, that only one side is willing to admit to this.

Which side is that, Dalish or Chantry/Orlais? I don't recall the Chantry and Orlais talking about any wrong-doing on their part. They give a few more details, but are noticeably vague on others.

The Chantry has allowed historical research into the area, and even allowed for some viewpoints highly critical of the Chantry to surface. The Dalish doesn't even bother, since they appear to like the stick up their collective ****s.

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Mage Extremeism:

"Im different from everyone, and I want to be treated the same as people that Im inherently different from, SO I'm gonna rail on everything they stand for, blow up their stuff, hate on everything they do, constantly complain about social injustice ALL WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY expecting you to respect me"

I can't believe some people don't understand why that train of thought doesn't work If you don't have the advantage of being the Majority/established power.

Alot of people fought for respect like those in the Civil Rights Movement so you're incorrect on that one.Though that does'nt mean you should kill to get that respect.

Just because people Won their Civil rights, and were justified in doing so, does not mean they won Respect. You don't endear anyone to your cause by hating them. Hate only breeds more Hate. This is a lesson that the disadvantaged party (mages) needs to learn.

I agree,that's why I believe the mages should starting healing the sick and turn the public's perception about them into a positive.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Is there any mention of Ferelden, and the Orzammar not aiding Olrlais during the second blight?

Good question. I can't remember one way or another, so I'm going to look it up.

It says the darkspawn were "eventually overrunning all corners of the continent" during the Second Blight, but most accounts of the Second Blight seem to specifically mention the Anderfels, Orlais, Tevinter, and the Free Marches suffering heavily from the darkspawn.

Found something during the third blight.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Third_Blight

It talks of Tevinter and Orlais both refusing aid at first, and eventually went on to Nevarra to help with the blight.

Thing is, after the blight was over, Orlais refused to leave and ended up occupying/conquering Nevarra as a result.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Both sides have their dirty laundry, and both put all the blame on the other.

It would seem however, that only one side is willing to admit to this.

Which side is that, Dalish or Chantry/Orlais? I don't recall the Chantry and Orlais talking about any wrong-doing on their part. They give a few more details, but are noticeably vague on others.

The Chantry has allowed historical research into the area, and even allowed for some viewpoints highly critical of the Chantry to surface. The Dalish doesn't even bother, since they appear to like the stick up their collective ****s.

You are quite correct on that part. The Dalish do like to maintain their "I'm a victim" mindset. Doesn't take away some of their points, however. *shrug*

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Any political tension between the Dales and Drakon would have minor because it's mentioned in one line in the DA Wiki and not at all in World of Thedas. He was hardly a mortal enemy of theirs or a threat to their life and culture. His "conquest of his neighbors" amounted to him unifying some nearby tribes within the Orlesian heartland. It's never stated anywhere that he even intended to attack the Dales much less obliterate everything elves were.

Letting a nearby city of innocents burn down 2 decades into a Blight is pretty indefensible.

Letting the

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's stipulated that not all the elves went to the Dales in their history, so calling it a 'fallacy' simply because it nullifies your vilification of the People is a bit much. 

If they didn't go to the Dales, they wouldn't be Dalish. They wouldn't be "the People" as you are so fond of saying. They wouldn't have Keepers or clans. They would have settled into human society and integrated like a good immigrant and become part of the society they lived in.

Sinply because you think the elves who didn't go to the Dales must have bent knee to human rule doesn't make it so.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In conclusion: There were no "Dalish Clans" at this point in time. There were the Dales, and then there were all the Elves who didn't go there. There weren't even a title called "Keeper" yet. 

There's nothing to stipulate that. Lanaya points out that modern Keepers are often descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, but there's no information that says that Illoren's fight against the darkspawn is factually inaccurate. You seem to detest it simply because it contradicts your vilification of the People abandoning humanity simply because they didn't aid Orlais.

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Are you defending the Dalish leaving people to die against the Darkspawn?

Humans aren't people silly. Unless they are mages. Otherwise they need pointy ears to be people. 

What sort of logic is that?Humans by definition are people.

We're using logic now? Because basically this argument has boiled down to my opinion versues your opinion, so why not? Logic says don't let people who can melt faces off run around with no supervision. Logic says that we shouldn't feel sympathy for those letting mass murder happen while they stand by and do nothing. Logic says many things that you ignore on a daily basis. Since when did you care about logic? 

,Are you serious?I believe the mages should be taught to control their powers,I believe the Dalish were wrong for letting the Darkspawn attack a city without doing anything to help.So anything else you would like to accuse me of not caring about?

Just so you know, I mean that the Circle should definitely be there by logic. Mages should not be allowed to wonder around freely, according to logic. Logic says remove such variables before the results become catastrophic. So yeah, I'm dead serious. As to the second part, all I've seen from you is, "Human mean to elf. Elf reveng is okay." 

Not really,I'm simply suggesting the elves may have had a reason for their role in the Dales conflict.Of course to someone on the extremist side that would be interpreted as me believing the humans are %100 evil.

Coming from someone who hates the Chantry in almost everyway, I can tell you that this is not true. I suggest that you go back and reread a lot of the things written by you in the past few whatever. You been 100%-this-happen-so-let's-revolutionize and then you turn around and say, "I'm not for one side, I'm neutral." in what I imgaine in some toad like voice, because of the comical effect that it would have on the hypocrisy.

And you know what?I would've said the same things if humans were in the elves' position right now.I simply hate it when a group is treated like crap and I don't care who it is...I will speak my mind.Whether that makes me look biased or does'nt matter because I simply don't give a ****.

[wolfhowwl]

No one is bothered that you're speaking your mind, just stop insulting our intelligence by continuing to claim that you're somehow neutral in all this.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:28 .

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Any political tension between the Dales and Drakon would have minor because it's mentioned in one line in the DA Wiki and not at all in World of Thedas. He was hardly a mortal enemy of theirs or a threat to their life and culture. His "conquest of his neighbors" amounted to him unifying some nearby tribes within the Orlesian heartland. It's never stated anywhere that he even intended to attack the Dales much less obliterate everything elves were.

Letting a nearby city of innocents burn down 2 decades into a Blight is pretty indefensible.

Letting the

The last part is cut out, so I can't read your whole post.

But it does talk about Orlais refusing to help during the third blight so they could focus on their own lands. And when they did help, they used that opportunity to conquer a weakened nation.

That is equally indefensible.

Chantry/Orlais= 1 indefensible act in a blight, or the immediate aftermath
Dales= 1 indefensible act during a blight.

Both are about even on that front.

[LobselVith8]

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You could say the same about Orlais, given their centuries long history of conquest and occupation. Refusing to aid an enemy that wanted to obliterate everything they are simply isn't sufficient enough for me to condemn the People.

If the choice is between wannabe Romans and f*cking Sauron the choice is very clear to all non-moronic peoples.  Sadly the Dalish don't seem to be considered as such. 

When it came to choosing between two groups that wanted to annihilate them, the elves of the Dales apparently picked option three: none of the above.

[Steelcan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You could say the same about Orlais, given their centuries long history of conquest and occupation. Refusing to aid an enemy that wanted to obliterate everything they are simply isn't sufficient enough for me to condemn the People.

If the choice is between wannabe Romans and f*cking Sauron the choice is very clear to all non-moronic peoples.  Sadly the Dalish don't seem to be considered as such. 

When it came to choosing between two groups that wanted to annihilate them, the elves of the Dales apparently picked option three: none of the above.

Then decided to attack one group and paid the price

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

No one cares that you're speaking your mind, just stop insulting our intelligence by continuing to claim that you're somehow neutral in all this.

I am neutral.For Pete's sake I try to look at both sides of view,if I was really biased then I would'nt even bother trying to say there are two sides to the Dales conflict.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's stipulated that not all the elves went to the Dales in their history, so calling it a 'fallacy' simply because it nullifies your vilification of the People is a bit much. 

If they didn't go to the Dales, they wouldn't be Dalish. They wouldn't be "the People" as you are so fond of saying. They wouldn't have Keepers or clans. They would have settled into human society and integrated like a good immigrant and become part of the society they lived in.

Sinply because you think the elves who didn't go to the Dales must have bent knee to human rule doesn't make it so.

They wouldn't have had much choice. The Elves didn't have any culture of their own at this point. The Elves who didn't go to the Dales would ahve had to settle in humans lands, and live by human laws.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In conclusion: There were no "Dalish Clans" at this point in time. There were the Dales, and then there were all the Elves who didn't go there. There weren't even a title called "Keeper" yet. 

There's nothing to stipulate that. Lanaya points out that modern Keepers are often descended from the nobility who governed the Dales, but there's no information that says that Illoren's fight against the darkspawn is factually inaccurate. You seem to detest it simply because it contradicts your vilification of the People abandoning humanity simply because they didn't aid Orlais.

You JUST pointed out what indicates that it is factually inaccurate. Keepers are descendants of the Dalish nobility. Ergo, there were no Keepers yet. Ergo, Iloren can't have beena  Keeper. Ergo, the tale is factually incorrect. Sure there might have been an Elf who fought the Darkspawn in northeren Anderfels, during the Second Blight, why wouldn't there have been? He simply wouldn't have been Dalish.....
The Dalish were far too busy regaining their immortality.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

No one cares that you're speaking your mind, just stop insulting our intelligence by continuing to claim that you're somehow neutral in all this.

I am neutral.For Pete's sake I try to look at both sides of view,if I was really biased then I would'nt even bother trying to say there are two sides to the Dales conflict.

I am obviously biased. I still try to look at both points of view, since it helps to gain perspective. Being biased, does not prevent you from seeing both perspectives. It might however influence how you weigh evidence.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Any political tension between the Dales and Drakon would have minor because it's mentioned in one line in the DA Wiki and not at all in World of Thedas. He was hardly a mortal enemy of theirs or a threat to their life and culture. His "conquest of his neighbors" amounted to him unifying some nearby tribes within the Orlesian heartland. It's never stated anywhere that he even intended to attack the Dales much less obliterate everything elves were.

Letting a nearby city of innocents burn down 2 decades into a Blight is pretty indefensible.

Letting the

The last part is cut out, so I can't read your whole post.

But it does talk about Orlais refusing to help during the third blight so they could focus on their own lands. And when they did help, they used that opportunity to conquer a weakened nation.

That is equally indefensible.

Chantry/Orlais= 1 indefensible act in a blight, or the immediate aftermath
Dales= 1 indefensible act during a blight.

Both are about even on that front.

I didn't have anything left to add. At least that I remember. I think maybe I just forgot to delete a redundant half of a sentence.

But yes, during the Third Blight Tevinter and Orlais intially refused to aid the Free Marches and when they did used their aid to divide up what would later become Nevarra between them. That's wrong. You're not going to catch me defending that. But that was centuries after what we were talking about now.

I don't think the fact that Orlais did a lot of terrible things, really has anything to do with whether elves do terrible things. Both are wrong and both should be condemned. I think the fact that the elves suffered the worst during the Dales/Orlais War, and with the Fall of Arlathan and often ever since then, sometimes creates the impression that they must always have been the innocent party of the victims in whatever situation they were in with humans. But an elven nation is just as capable of being cruel as a human one.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2013 - 02:44 .