1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Actually - the genuinely poor donate far more in real life than one might expect.

Of course - anyone on here, with a computer - isn't "genuinely poor".

Knowing what it is to "barely scrape by" usually engenders a desire to lighten the burden for others when/if it's ever possible.

[wcholcombe]

Ap0crypha wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

When they ignore Templars sexually abusing mages & have sisters soliciting money from the poor and prostitutes something is wrong.

Ok, the sexually abusing mages I can give ya.

But why exactly should the poor or prostitues not be asked to donate?  I know of no organization that stipulates you can't donate based on financial status.

...because the poor have nothing to give? If anything, it should be the Chantry helping the poor.

The chantry does help the poor.  And again they ask.  The Sister isn't holding a knife to the prostitutes throat and demanding a donation.  I don't make a lot of money, but it is important to me to donate to organizations when I can. Plus, knowing the history of prostitution and STDs, that prostitute is porbably responsible for a lot of the Chantry's public welfare work.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Ap0crypha]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Brainwashing?  That makes it sound like they are getting some power out of it....No they are teaching the kids what they honestly believe.  That mages are dangerous--as you agree at the end. 

That's how The Warden can interpret spreading the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world - as an attempt to spread their power and dominion, especially when we know how violently hostile some Andrastians can be towards heathens. And the Chantry clearly gets power and influence, including with their docturine that templars have dominion over mages by divine right, as well as preaching that it's the Maker's docturine that mages belong in Circle Towers, since it leaves virtually everyone with magical talent right under their thumb.

Ah, there we go, interpret.  The warden can also interpret the Dalish as being rebellious tresspassers who harbor apostates.

Actually, the countries they operate in also give the templars legal authority over mages.

But, you are just interpretting, again, if the chantry honestly believes keeping the mages in the towers is what is best for Thedas, you can't argue that they are corrupt for it. 

You could argue misguided.  You could argue that they are wrong and stupid for it if you want to argue that.

But you can't tell me that they are corrupt.  The divine isn't putting the mages in a tower to finance her power hungry plan to take over the world and have everyone worship her as a living god.

You yourself agreed that sexually abusing the mages--which is the equivalent of a jailor raping his or her prisoners--is wrong. That's an abuse of power and authority.

Even if the Chantry has nothing to do with the behavior of their Templars, they're at least turning a blind eye to it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Necanor wrote...

The Chantry as it is, is oppressive and ignorant.

The Templars should be an independent order free of chantry control.

So they may kill all mages and no longer be bound to keep them in the circle.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Ah, there we go, interpret.  The warden can also interpret the Dalish as being rebellious tresspassers who harbor apostates.

Actually, the countries they operate in also give the templars legal authority over mages.

But, you are just interpretting, again, if the chantry honestly believes keeping the mages in the towers is what is best for Thedas, you can't argue that they are corrupt for it.

When people suffer for it, when people commit suicide to be free of it, when people can lose their humanity because of it, then I think it can be called corrupt.

wcholcombe wrote...

You could argue misguided.  You could argue that they are wrong and stupid for it if you want to argue that.

But you can't tell me that they are corrupt.  The divine isn't putting the mages in a tower to finance her power hungry plan to take over the world and have everyone worship her as a living god. 

I think forcing mages into servitude can be seen as corrupt, but since you and I won't agree, it might be best to leave it at that. I doubt you and I will reach a consensus on the matter.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Chantry is a dangerous narcissistic religion that's why it's so corrupted.

So basically you hate it for being a religion?

[Navasha]

Thedas is full of corrupt and controlling people and organizations. The Chantry just happens to be one of them.

For me personally, I despise organizations, people, rulers, governments who believe it is their right to impose their vision of right and wrong upon other people. The Chantry does fall into this category. They use dependency to control and rob the Templars of free will in order to serve the Chantry. The Templars then abuse and control the mages (which blame for this also lies at the feet of the Chantry).

Tevinter, Chantry, and Qunari are all sort of in the same category for me. There are others as well, but these three tend to top the list of all that I despise.

Modifié par Navasha, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

To be perfectly frank, I think we just have a bunch of people who want an easy, clear cut, good and bad black and white conflict that they can ride in and solve with their oh so grand knowledge on everything, and have rationalized such a boogeyman to fill that need.

The chantry, templars, mages, humans, dwarves, qunari, dalish, tevinter, wardens, dragon cults, you name it. This forum has factions dedicated to seeing any number or combination of these groups wiped off the face of thedas, so their side that they precieved as being the victims of the others can rise to greatness. And it doesn't matter what is said, because their loyalty was made the moment they picked their winning horse.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Navasha wrote...

Thedas is full of corrupt and controlling people and organizations. The Chantry just happens to be one of them.

For me personally, I despise organizations, people, rulers, governments who believe it is their right to impose their vision of right and wrong upon other people. The Chantry does fall into this category. They use dependency to control and rob the Templars of free will in order to serve the Chantry. The Templars then abuse and control the mages (which blame for this also lies at the feet of the Chantry).

Tevinter, Chantry, and Qunari are all sort of in the same category for me. There are others as well, but these three tend to top the list of all that I despise.

Where is this place you wish to live, that governments or legal systems do not exist?

[LobselVith8]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Chantry is a dangerous narcissistic religion that's why it's so corrupted.

So basically you hate it for being a religion? 

When the Chantry uses religion to dominate and subjugate people in the name of the Maker, some people are going to take issue with it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Chantry is a dangerous narcissistic religion that's why it's so corrupted.

So basically you hate it for being a religion? 

When the Chantry uses religion to dominate and subjugate people in the name of the Maker, some people are going to take issue with it.

What religion, in game or otherwise, hasn't done this or been exploited by states in order to do that?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:23 .

[wcholcombe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Chantry is a dangerous narcissistic religion that's why it's so corrupted.

So basically you hate it for being a religion? 

When the Chantry uses religion to dominate and subjugate people in the name of the Maker, some people are going to take issue with it.

Ok, but I haven't yet seen someone killed because they didn't believe in the Maker. I haven't seen anyone with a sword to their throat being told to convert or die.

I have heard by those who defend the Dalish, that they didn't allow the chantry into the dales.  You know what, it is possible that there were dalish who were interested in the chantry.  Unlikely...yes, but no more so than a priest of the chantry who is a dwarf opening a chantry in Orzammar.

[Angrywolves]

They altered the chant of light to exclude the elves and others who supported Andraste, that they don't like
To me that proves the chantry is corrupt.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They removed the Canticle of Shartan after the Exalted March on the Dales. But that's all. But many Chantry scholars and clergy still know it.

[wcholcombe]

Angrywolves wrote...

They altered the chant of light to exclude the elves and others who supported Andraste, that they don't like
To me that proves the chantry is corrupt.

They did exclude, but again, that by no means makes them corrupt.

It makes them petty.  That because the elves sacked Val Royeuax they removed the Chant of Shartan from the chant,  but again, that is censorship, not corruption.

There isn't an overly evil act begin taken here for the Chantry's benefit.  In their misguided way they are punishing the Elves, but that again isn't corrupt.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

wcholcombe wrote...

Again, not saying the Chantry doesn't have problems, just curious where this attitude of the Chantry being the most corrupt thing in Thedas comes from?

Whether or not the Chantry is corrupt ingame, some people have an immediate, visceral dislike of organised religion which colours their views of similar ficional organisations.

This is not the only game issue viewed through such glasses, mind.

[Br3admax]

So you're telling me that if they had said, "And an elf said shoot," they would not be corrupt. There are much worse things that the Chantry have done than that. Really.

[Shadow Fox]

Wonder how long this thread will live?

[BlueMagitek]

Depends who joins in the topic. ~_^

[Heimdall]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

They removed the Canticle of Shartan after the Exalted March on the Dales. But that's all. But many Chantry scholars and clergy still know it.

And that was only after the Dalish had sacked Val Royeaux, the Chantry leaders were understandably (Whether or not you believe justifiably) more than a little unhappy with the elves.