1420 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

I think slavery requires them to be forced to do work. Apart from the fact that they can't leave, I think they volunteer for everything the Chantry/Circle needs of them.

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

I think slavery requires them to be forced to do work. Apart from the fact that they can't leave, I think they volunteer for everything the Chantry/Circle needs of them.

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

Modifié par cjones91, 24 octobre 2013 - 12:35 .

[Bleachrude]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word. 

[Xilizhra]

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word.

Well, they're certainly comparable in terms of being periodically massacred.

[KiwiQuiche]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

I think slavery requires them to be forced to do work. Apart from the fact that they can't leave, I think they volunteer for everything the Chantry/Circle needs of them.

So you're fine with the fact they're locked up there for life and unable to leave of their own free will?

[cjones91]

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word. 

Black people weren't the only ones who were enslaved you know....as someone who is 50% black I can see why people think the Chantry's treatment of mages could be equated to slavery since many are either killed or branded if they start acting uppity.

[KiwiQuiche]

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word. 

So just because you're black you have an indepth knowledge of how slavery really works? Interesting.

[KiwiQuiche]

cjones91 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word. 

Black people weren't the only ones who were enslaved you know....as someone who is 50% black I can see why people think the Chantry's treatment of mages could be equated to slavery since many are either killed or branded if they start acting uppity.

What are you saying? Of course black people were the only ones ever enslaved in the whole of human history. Every other ethnic group was never slaves and aren't allowed to have opinion on slavery at all.

[Bleachrude]

Nice try but if you ask people "what is slavery" most would think American slavery. Trying to use the excuse "I mean, OTHER forms of slavery" is just being disingenious sind does you no benefits.

Can mages leave the circle? Yes, in-game, we have MULTIPLE senior enchanters that leave and in one case, don't even ask the Knight commander. In-game, we see that Finn, not a senior enchanter, has permission to leave Kinloch hold without a templar.

What you're trying to argue is that ALL mages can't leave and the game EXPLICITLY contradicts it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

I think slavery requires them to be forced to do work. Apart from the fact that they can't leave, I think they volunteer for everything the Chantry/Circle needs of them.

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

[Silfren]

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

As a black man...I REALLY, REALLY hate when people try to equate the circle system with SLAVERY.

House arrest..sure. I have no problem with.

Actual slavery though? I honestly think you're trivalizing the word. 

I don't think I am, though, for the primary reason being, again, that I am NOT referencing the U.S. model of slavery in order to reach my conclusion.  I don't think I'm trivializing it at all, I think I'm acknowledging that there's more to slavery than forced labor alone.  Slavery isn't about forced labor so much as ownership, and since the Chantry for all intents and purposes has divine right over mages' lives, well there you go.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:07 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Bleachrude wrote...

Nice try but if you ask people "what is slavery" most would think American slavery. Trying to use the excuse "I mean, OTHER forms of slavery" is just being disingenious sind does you no benefits.

Can mages leave the circle? Yes, in-game, we have MULTIPLE senior enchanters that leave and in one case, don't even ask the Knight commander. In-game, we see that Finn, not a senior enchanter, has permission to leave Kinloch hold without a templar.

What you're trying to argue is that ALL mages can't leave and the game EXPLICITLY contradicts it.

They can only leave when ALLOWED. Most are not able to come and go as they please and get hunted down if they try to run.

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Newsflash: We are not wrong simply because you declare it so.

No. You are wrong because you aren't right. You try to stick a term to a situation, where it simply doesn't fit. that makes you wrong.

Except it does fit, and rather well.  The Circle system can and does fit into real world models of slavery. 

I think slavery requires them to be forced to do work. Apart from the fact that they can't leave, I think they volunteer for everything the Chantry/Circle needs of them.

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

[Silfren]

Bleachrude wrote...

Nice try but if you ask people "what is slavery" most would think American slavery. Trying to use the excuse "I mean, OTHER forms of slavery" is just being disingenious sind does you no benefits.

Can mages leave the circle? Yes, in-game, we have MULTIPLE senior enchanters that leave and in one case, don't even ask the Knight commander. In-game, we see that Finn, not a senior enchanter, has permission to leave Kinloch hold without a templar.

What you're trying to argue is that ALL mages can't leave and the game EXPLICITLY contradicts it.

Most AMERICANS might think that, but I don't think the entire world fixates on American issues quite the way that many of us Americans are stereotypically prone to...and even then, AS an American, I'm one of those who does her best NOT to be American-centric.

EDIT: And, honestly, we are all veering a little too much into real world prejudices here, myself included.  We should probably cool it down before a mod slaps us.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:08 .

[AresKeith]

Bleachrude wrote...

Nice try but if you ask people "what is slavery" most would think American slavery. Trying to use the excuse "I mean, OTHER forms of slavery" is just being disingenious sind does you no benefits.

Just because people would think American slavery the most doesn't mean it's the ONLY slavery out there

Can mages leave the circle? Yes, in-game, we have MULTIPLE senior enchanters that leave and in one case, don't even ask the Knight commander. In-game, we see that Finn, not a senior enchanter, has permission to leave Kinloch hold without a templar.

What you're trying to argue is that ALL mages can't leave and the game EXPLICITLY contradicts it.

Those mages are allowed to leave with a Templar watching them or in Wynn and Finn's case with the PC because of the situation

Mages aren't allowed to leave on there own

[KiwiQuiche]

Hmm, alright then. As I said in a few other threads, the Chantry is a terrible place, just in the manner they treat Elves and mages. Not to mention how they distort their own damn gospel; removing the elf from the Chant? They are heretics to the very dead burned woman and negligent god they worship.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:14 .

[AresKeith]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Hmm, alright then. As I said in a few other threads, the Chantry is a terrible place, just in the manner they treat Elves and mages. Not to mention how they distort their own damn gospel; removing the elf from the Chant? They are heretics to the very dead burned woman and negligent god they worship.

I do hope for a option to reform the Chantry and the Circles

[KiwiQuiche]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

A prison is still a prison no matter how much the Chantry tried to fluff it up.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

A prison is still a prison no matter how much the Chantry tried to fluff it up.

That's as may be. But prisoners and slaves aren't the same thing.

[KiwiQuiche]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

A prison is still a prison no matter how much the Chantry tried to fluff it up.

That's as may be. But prisoners and slaves aren't the same thing.

True. But as we've seen, many Circles have different rules; at least the Fereldan Circle seemed moderately reasonable. Others, not so much. So I think the slave/prisoner issue greatly depends on the location.

AresKeith wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Hmm,
alright then. As I said in a few other threads, the Chantry is a
terrible place, just in the manner they treat Elves and mages. Not to
mention how they distort their own damn gospel; removing the elf from
the Chant? They are heretics to the very dead burned woman and negligent
god they worship.

I do hope for a option to reform the Chantry and the Circles

Indeed. I would make them more like Hogwarts,
like a Bording school you can go to, while having holidays where you
can visit your family and can get mail and gifts from them throughout
the year and they can visit if they feel something is wrong.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 octobre 2013 - 01:21 .

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not like they have a choice in the matter..The mages are tools for the Chantry which means what the Chantry wants is more important than what the mages want.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The only part where the mages don't have a choice is in the mandatory education and mandatory living arrangements. If you see a mage cooperating with the Chantry any further than that it's because they decided to, not because they were told to.

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

A prison is still a prison no matter how much the Chantry tried to fluff it up.

That's as may be. But prisoners and slaves aren't the same thing.

But the two can intersect,a slave can be a prisoner and a prisoner can be forced to do slave labor.

The latter sort of describes how the Chantry treats the mages under their care.They are tools that are to be used when the Chantry demands it and the mages have to go along with it or be punished.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

But how many mages would be willing to help the Chantry if they were'nt living under their thumb?It's easy to claim a prisoner would want to help the prison when they likely have no option to refuse.

We have from David Gaider that they are allowed to refuse. As to the situation, yes, it's inherently coersive, but the mages are still not forced to do anything apart from come, get educated, and (barring whatever exceptions the Templars approve) stay. Edit: In which context Uldred never teaching (so far as Wynne knows) makes a good deal more sense.

A prison is still a prison no matter how much the Chantry tried to fluff it up.

That's as may be. But prisoners and slaves aren't the same thing.

But the two can intersect,a slave can be a prisoner and a prisoner can be forced to do slave labor.

The latter sort of describes how the Chantry treats the mages under their care.They are tools that are to be used when the Chantry demands it and the mages have to go along with it or be punished.

That's exactly not what I said. (The order of the words in that sentence was intentional.) The mages are absolutely free to not cooperate any further than educating and restraining them requires.